* cont-enp.pdf on lulu
@ 2008-07-21 23:58 abbg770
2008-07-22 0:37 ` John Culleton
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: abbg770 @ 2008-07-21 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Hi,
Why not submit cont-enp.pdf (ConTeXt the manual) to lulu? I do appreciate
the hard work that's going into the documentation, but at some places the
english doesn't flow that well. Out of curiosity how many people proof read
the documentation before they're released?
--
Thanks
Mohamed Bana
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-21 23:58 cont-enp.pdf on lulu abbg770
@ 2008-07-22 0:37 ` John Culleton
2008-07-25 20:07 ` Gerben Wierda
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: John Culleton @ 2008-07-22 0:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Monday 21 July 2008 07:58:55 pm abbg770@city.ac.uk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Why not submit cont-enp.pdf (ConTeXt the manual) to lulu? I do
> appreciate the hard work that's going into the documentation, but
> at some places the english doesn't flow that well. Out of curiosity
> how many people proof read the documentation before they're
> released?
The cont-en manual, which I use reguarly, dates back to 2001 or so. No
attempt is ever made to update it. New manuals each covering a
feature or set of features abound. And of course there is
Contextgarden.
There are days when I feel like collecting all the bits and pieces and
writing somthing myself. But then I lie down until the fit passes.
--
John Culleton
Resources for every author and publisher:
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/packagers.pdf
http://www.creativemindspress.com/newbiefaq.htm
http://www.gropenassoc.com/TopLevelPages/reference%20desk.htm
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-22 0:37 ` John Culleton
@ 2008-07-25 20:07 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-25 22:42 ` luigi scarso
2008-07-25 23:31 ` Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-25 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 22, 2008, at 2:37 AM, John Culleton wrote:
> There are days when I feel like collecting all the bits and pieces and
> writing somthing myself. But then I lie down until the fit passes.
The lack of proper end user documentation is one of the main problems
with ConTeXt. There was talk of a book about ConTeXt but I haven't
heard about that one for a while. Probably impossible given the lack
of stability (aka ongoing development) of ConTeXt.
ConTeXt could become very popular in teh TeX world if it had:
- A decent versioning support (where you can get documentation and
code that match and not code from 2008 with documentation from 2001)
- Side-by-side development of manuals and code
As it is now, the developing community is restricted to the few gurus
who can hack the ConTeXt source code. No other sane person will try to
release and support something on such a volatile foundation. What
ConTeXt looks to me currently, is a personal swiss army knife of a few
people who have no need for end user documentation (so it never
arrives). I moved to ConTeXt years ago for a project expecting ConTeXt
to stabilize and come with better documentation. It never happened.
G
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-25 20:07 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-25 22:42 ` luigi scarso
2008-07-25 23:31 ` Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2008-07-25 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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These are all my opinions, of course.
>
> The lack of proper end user documentation is one of the main problems
> with ConTeXt.
Eventually, actually one of the main problems is the lack of
people like Wolfgang Schuster .
For sure the things can be better if everyone uses the wiki to search and
update documentations
or write solutions.
There was talk of a book about ConTeXt but I haven't
> heard about that one for a while. Probably impossible given the lack
> of stability (aka ongoing development) of ConTeXt.
>
mkii is not so instable.
mkiv is under active development,
but I'm using it for a catalog from october of last year.
>
> ConTeXt could become very popular in teh TeX world if it had:
> - A decent versioning support (where you can get documentation and
> code that match and not code from 2008 with documentation from 2001)
> - Side-by-side development of manuals and code
>
More or less, TeX and Latext suffer of the same problem.
> As it is now, the developing community is restricted to the few gurus
> who can hack the ConTeXt source code.
>From what I know,
the developer of ConTeXt is Hans Hagen.
There are some texnicians
who help in debuggings; there are some people (wolfgang,mojca, aditja,...)
who know context better than others and offers their support
on the mailing list (we also need more people like them) .
BTW, we are lucky
that developing is firmly on the hands of Hans.
No other sane person will try to
> release and support something on such a volatile foundation.
It's no true.
What
> ConTeXt looks to me currently, is a personal swiss army knife of a few
> people who have no need for end user documentation (so it never
> arrives).
ConTeXt/mkiv actually is the most advanced macro_packages_system build on
top of luatex,
the successor of pdftex; it's a serious competitor in the world of
typesetting systems.
With lua build in, will attract more 'traditional' programmers than
tex/latex/pdftex etc.
It's an ongoing process of development, because it's not easy to develop
luatex-mplib-mkiv
in synch (and taco is another giant )
It can be true that actually context is hard to learn, but I don't think
that this is the right moment for a book.
And to be clear: without luatex, TeX will not survive.
Only my 1cent.
--
luigi
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-25 20:07 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-25 22:42 ` luigi scarso
@ 2008-07-25 23:31 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-26 2:38 ` Gerben Wierda
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2008-07-25 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Gerben Wierda wrote:
> On Jul 22, 2008, at 2:37 AM, John Culleton wrote:
>
>> There are days when I feel like collecting all the bits and pieces and
>> writing somthing myself. But then I lie down until the fit passes.
>
> The lack of proper end user documentation is one of the main problems
> with ConTeXt. There was talk of a book about ConTeXt but I haven't
> heard about that one for a while. Probably impossible given the lack
> of stability (aka ongoing development) of ConTeXt.
I believe a ConTeXt book is possible even with the problem of chasing a
moving target. The user interface has not changed in quite some time.
Moreover, we do not need an exhaustive manual listing all the features of
ConTeXt; we need a user manual that explains the most commonly used
features.
Currently, the trouble with writing a book is that there is no one way of
installing ConTeXt. Hopefully that will change once the minimal become
more stable. The other thing is font handling, which is becoming
considerably simpler with mkiv. Another thing is math support, which still
lacks certain features that are critical. The right to left typsetting
support is just beginning, and I imagine it will take some time before we
settle on a stable interface.
However, if we look at typsetting text in European languages with figures,
tables, and footnotes, the interface has been more of less stable for more
than 5 years. So, we can have a book that talks about the most common
issues of these features and does not try to be exhaustive. I believe that
it will be very useful to a lot of new users.
The trouble is that writing such a book is a considerable effort. I don't
know how much incentive and motivation there is for the authors.
> ConTeXt could become very popular in teh TeX world if it had:
> - A decent versioning support (where you can get documentation and
> code that match and not code from 2008 with documentation from 2001)
If you really want, you can get code from 2001 and then the code and
documentation will watch (Just kidding).
> - Side-by-side development of manuals and code
That is done partly. The sources are very well documented in the most
part. But then, that is not user interface documentation, it is code
documentation.
> As it is now, the developing community is restricted to the few gurus
> who can hack the ConTeXt source code. No other sane person will try to
> release and support something on such a volatile foundation. What
> ConTeXt looks to me currently, is a personal swiss army knife of a few
> people who have no need for end user documentation (so it never
> arrives). I moved to ConTeXt years ago for a project expecting ConTeXt
> to stabilize and come with better documentation. It never happened.
Unfortunately, when it comes to choosing TeX based markup alternatives,
you have two options: latex and context. Latex has been dorment for 15
years, and the developers are discussing the best way of solving complex
typesetting problems and the best way to design a user interface. It is
fairly well documented, because it is not evolving. (I don't know if LaTeX
takes advantage of etex primitives or not). Context is adding new features
constantly, there is not too much discussion on what is the best way to do
things, Hans adds features that work, and not many people mind
the not optimal speed or placements. The documentation is old, and at
places woefully inadequate.
So as a user, you have to choose between the less of the two evils :-(.
One way for ConTeXt to develop is to become modular (i.e. follow the LaTeX
model of development). Write a set of core macros, that are fixed and
stable. Document them well. Write a regression suite. And do not change
them. If you want new features, write a separate module with these
features. Every few years, move some of the functionality of the modules
into the core. This will help in solving the documentation problem. But
what about package clashes? Should I load the module on math after the
module on fonts but before the module for references? What about
documentation of modules? I don't know if this is a better scenario.
Another option is to have a editable book on wikibooks or some other
similar site, with a pdf export. Then the users can correct the mistakes
of the original book and the documentation will be up to date. There will
be difference in styles, although I am not sure how much this will matter.
The trouble with this model is that one will need to check the
documentation. Will the "many eyes will avoid mistakes" model work?
Aditya
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-25 23:31 ` Aditya Mahajan
@ 2008-07-26 2:38 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-27 19:40 ` David
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-26 2:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 26, 2008, at 1:31 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> The sources are very well documented in the most
> part. But then, that is not user interface documentation, it is code
> documentation
Exactly. Let's give a simple example. My project needs both footnotes
and endnotes. For footnotes I have
\setupfootnotes[conversion=set 2,way=bypage]
in my environment file. For endnotes, I use \endnote and
\placenotes[endnote]
in a separate chapter in \backmatter. When I asked Hans in 2005 if
footnotes and endnotes together were possible he finished a part of
ConTeXt that was not quite done and after some testing it ended up in
ConTeXt. This is how it works.
What I would like now is to get my end notes per chapter at the end of
the chapter (because I want to work on my project per chapter and make
per-chapter pdf-files I can send to people). I have been looking for
documentation on endnotes. The term still does not appear in any
official ConTeXt manual, not on the ConTeXt wiki. So, \endnote and
\placenotes[endnote] have been there for *years*. But there is *no*
mention of it anywhere. For fun: try googling for "endnote placenote".
So, let's look at the well documented code then
\def\dodoflushnotes % per class, todo: handle endnotes here
{\ifdim\ht\localpostponednotes>\zeropoint
\bgroup
\dochecknote
\ifendnotes \else
;-) Seriously, do you really expect ordinary users to look at the code
of ConTeXt to find out how things can be done? I think nobody thinks
that.
Also funny: Look at what the wiki tells me about \setupfootnotes: http://texshow.contextgarden.net/cmd/setupfootnotes
. How should a simple user like myself ever find out that the above is
possible reading the table in the wiki? And who else than ConTeXt
developers can write this? Or is it the idea that many people reverse
engineer what ConTeXt does and fill a Wiki that way?
So, what we have is Hans' and Taco's (and maybe some others) swiss
army knife under development. WIth LuaTeX and MKIV all efforts go into
the development of the entirely new engine and all the technical know
how on the inside. My expectation is that the situation with respect
to user documentation is not going to improve soon.
G
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-26 2:38 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-27 19:40 ` David
2008-07-28 9:50 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 14:20 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: David @ 2008-07-27 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:38:42 +0200, Gerben Wierda wrote:
> My expectation is that the situation with respect
> to user documentation is not going to improve soon.
I don't know one way or the other about this. I do know that there are
only a few people (fewer than ten) who can even think of fixing it.
I can write clearly, but if I were to try to write documentation for
ConTeXt, I would have to waste all my time asking stupid questions of
that same tiny group of people.
>From my own selfish point of view, the solution is simple. A freeze on
all code, not even allowing bug fixes, until there's a comprehensive
and unified document written by Hans and Taco (plus whoever else) that
explains how to use all the features of ConTeXt, covering absolutely
all possibilities including any features that are currently
half-finished. Unless a new bug is introduced tomorrow that makes all
ConTeXt projects come out completely blank, the nonexistent
documentation makes all other bugs insignificant. (In fact, many
apparent bugs turn out to have secret workarounds anyway, and those
would obviously be in the documentation.)
I know that such a project is viewed by Hans and Taco & co. as a waste
of their time, and as something that should be done only after the
current burst of development is finished.
- It's already proven that development isn't going to finish, but
evolve.
- No one else can document ConTeXt without bothering the same people
every five minutes anyway, so what's the difference?
- Documentation *could* be maintained and updated by someone outside of
the small group, *IF* there was a reasonably up-to-date base of correct
and complete documentation for them to start from. Currently, there is
no such thing.
Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to publicly set a date in the
near future (sometime before the end of 2008) as "code-freeze day",
when development comes to a complete stop and the documentation project
begins. Bringing a writer from outside and getting him "up to speed"
has obviously become completely impractical.
Sincerely
David
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-27 19:40 ` David
@ 2008-07-28 9:50 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 10:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 14:20 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-28 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 27, 2008, at 9:40 PM, David wrote:
>> From my own selfish point of view, the solution is simple. A freeze
>> on
>> all code, not even allowing bug fixes, until there's a comprehensive
>> and unified document written by Hans and Taco (plus whoever else)
>> that
>> explains how to use all the features of ConTeXt, covering absolutely
>> all possibilities including any features that are currently
>> half-finished. Unless a new bug is introduced tomorrow that makes all
>> ConTeXt projects come out completely blank, the nonexistent
>> documentation makes all other bugs insignificant. (In fact, many
>> apparent bugs turn out to have secret workarounds anyway, and those
>> would obviously be in the documentation.)
>>>
>>
>
> I know that such a project is viewed by Hans and Taco & co. as a waste
> of their time, and as something that should be done only after the
> current burst of development is finished.
I think this assessment is correct. And this is IMO also the problem.
It is a waste for Taco & Hans because they themselves do not need
documentation. Others do. Hence my analysis that ConTeXt is not a
product but a personal swiss army knife for those few that actually
work on ConTeXt and for all other users it is a borrowed swiss army
knife without a proper manual.
> - It's already proven that development isn't going to finish, but
> evolve.
Hence my analysis that there will probably never be decent
documentation unless attitudes change. And as long as Taco & Hans keep
developing ConTeXt it will probably not be documented. And gauging
Hans & Taco, they will keep on developing ConTeXt until they stop
ConTeXt alltogether.
> - No one else can document ConTeXt without bothering the same people
> every five minutes anyway, so what's the difference?
I was attracted to ConTeXt partly because at first sight the interface
looked promisingly clean and orthogonal. But the fact that only Hans &
Taco can document ConTeXt for users and that all kind of secret
workarounds are needed to make it work seems to indicate that
assessment was wrong.
> - Documentation *could* be maintained and updated by someone outside
> of
> the small group, *IF* there was a reasonably up-to-date base of
> correct
> and complete documentation for them to start from. Currently, there is
> no such thing.
Even that would not work because such a documentation maintainer would
not be able to keep up with finding out what changed.
You know what is funny and telling? Hans & co quite recently produced
a detailed, well written 158(!)-page document about the change from
ConTeXt MkII to MkIV. This is documentation (promised to be kept up to
date) about the technical process of developing ConTeXt/LUATeX. About
how it works, about technical issues regarding speed etc. Most of it
will be for ever hidden from and not interesting for ConTeXt users.
158 pages. That is book sized! For intermediary documentation of an
ongoing technical development process.
See: http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf
There is no reason for a project to be frozen to create documentation.
What is needed is that the developers accept that user documentation
is as important as technical documentation and technical work. The
developers currently see user documentation as a waste of time,
because they do not need it themselves, they 'should do that when the
development is finished'. What it actually means is that they like
technical work far more than documentation work. So, technical work
will for ever get a higher priority above user documentation work. And
there will always be technical work that needs to be done before the
nasty task of creating proper documentation is taken up. Concurrently,
the technical work itself is indeed in many places unfinished, half,
etc., mainly those places that the developers themselves are not
interested in as users or where they know about workarounds and hacks.
Writing user documentation in fact forces the developers to end that
state of affairs and forces them not only to do documentation work
(which they do not like) but it also forces them to do technical work
in areas they do not like nor find interesting for their own uses.
Hence, again, the assessment that ConTeXt is a personal swiss army
tool for a few people.
I am really wondering these days. Is there a serious stable and usable
(and supported) alternative for TeX for large projects, with many
cross references, footnotes, endnotes, etc. etc.?
G
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 9:50 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-28 10:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 12:48 ` Gerben Wierda
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2008-07-28 10:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
While most of what Gerben states is close enough to the truth to
be a matter of opinion, I really object to the tone of 'there is no
documentation'. There is, in fact, a whole lot of documentation.
It may be incomplete (especially when it comes to recent developments),
but that is quite different from not having documentation at all.
There are thousands of pages of documentation on pragma-ade.com,
and pretending they are totally inadequate by not even asserting
their assistance is unfair.
Best wishes,
Taco
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 10:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-07-28 12:48 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 12:57 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 23:07 ` Uwe Koloska
0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-28 12:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 28, 2008, at 12:46 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> While most of what Gerben states is close enough to the truth to
> be a matter of opinion, I really object to the tone of 'there is no
> documentation'. There is, in fact, a whole lot of documentation.
> It may be incomplete (especially when it comes to recent
> developments),
> but that is quite different from not having documentation at all.
>
> There are thousands of pages of documentation on pragma-ade.com,
> and pretending they are totally inadequate by not even asserting
> their assistance is unfair.
OK Taco, that is a fair point concerning my pov. To answer it: I have
made my comments knowing quite well what documentation there is and my
*personal* (your mileage may vary) experience is that it hardly helps
me. My personal experience has been with a result of close to 100%
that if I want to do something / find out something I am unable to
find it in the docs. Also, depending on what doc you take, I recall
getting different solutions (I am reminded of the various incompatible
ways to do tables) and if I recall correctly some of it had to be
hunted down in MAPS articles and such. Maybe the answers of my
questions are there. But in that case the documentation is such that I
consider myself in the situation that I am unable to get my help from
it.
And the documentation is not just incomplete for recent developments.
I have an idea. Why not have a live ConTeXt manual.pdf where you add
something in the proper location and compile the document every time
you answer a question from a user? As you are the person answering
anyway, it should be little extra work.
For instance: I have put out a question about the (afaik completely
undocumented, incomplete and certainly not recent) endnotes feature.
Why not take the manual now, add the info in and recompile and do that
every time a question arrives that is not in the manual or that is
maybe unclear in the manual? I would suggest looking at ways to make
it as easy as possible (that is, as little work as possible) for
yourself to keep a user&reference manual up to date. Something simple
and fundamental as endnotes should not be undocumented. And
limitations (like what to do if you want images in endnotes) should be
available in documentation.
In fact, you need only maintain one single integrated document en keep
it up to date with the current ConTeXt version. Then, when you make
MkIV the current ConTeXt version (and not a beta using a beta of a new
compiler) you freeze the old and move to the new.
Is it perhaps the case that the source of the manual is so old that
it will not compile with a current ConTeXt anymore? If not, why not
update it so it is less than 7 or 9 years out of date? If so, what
does that possibly tell you about how valid the contents itself still
are?
Yours,
G
PS. To my own surprise (as I am a TeX fan) I have recently started to
think about researching non-TeX alternatives.
PPS. Before pressing send I just had a look at what is there on the
pragma-ade site: http://www.pragma-ade.com/document-1.htm. I do not
see any documentation other than the 1999 excursion and the 2001 'all
of ConTeXt' manual. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place for
documentation?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 12:48 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-28 12:57 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 14:11 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-28 23:07 ` Uwe Koloska
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2008-07-28 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
> I have an idea. Why not have a live ConTeXt manual.pdf where you add
> something in the proper location and compile the document every time
> you answer a question from a user? As you are the person answering
> anyway, it should be little extra work.
This is a good idea, I'll take it up with Hans as soon as he is online
and up to speed again.
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 12:57 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-07-28 14:11 ` Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2008-07-28 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>
>
> Gerben Wierda wrote:
>>
>> I have an idea. Why not have a live ConTeXt manual.pdf where you add
>> something in the proper location and compile the document every time
>> you answer a question from a user? As you are the person answering
>> anyway, it should be little extra work.
>
> This is a good idea, I'll take it up with Hans as soon as he is online
> and up to speed again.
I remmeber that at least the beginners manual were in a svn repository
to which I had write access. I once tried to change the first chapter of
the beginner's manual to be more in line with what I thought that a
beginner would understand more easily, but then realized that the tone of
that chapter different from the rest of the manual: just a differece
between Hans' and my writing style. That is always the difficulty with a
collaborative documentation.
But it will be great if the main manual is updated so that it compiles
with current ConTeXt. Also, there needs to be a documentation to tell how
to use the existing ConTeXt documentation. I will try to clean up the wiki
page sometime next month (sorry no time before that).
Aditya
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-27 19:40 ` David
2008-07-28 9:50 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-28 14:20 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-28 15:44 ` Gerben Wierda
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-07-28 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
David wrote:
> documentation makes all other bugs insignificant. (In fact, many
> apparent bugs turn out to have secret workarounds anyway, and those
> would obviously be in the documentation.)
this is not entirely true ... there is often more than one way to solve
a problem (esp if there is no robust solution possible in tex); if there
is no official interface (say method=...], it might be an indication
that the solution is suboptimal, even if the finetuning feature is to
stay forever
> - Documentation *could* be maintained and updated by someone outside of
> the small group, *IF* there was a reasonably up-to-date base of correct
> and complete documentation for them to start from. Currently, there is
> no such thing.
there's the matter of what a user expects ... the core of context is
rather stable and in that respect the 'old documentation' is still valid
i.e. apart from 'new features, which may of interest to only a small
group', the date on a manual does not tell much (i run quite some
software which rather ancient manuals); for instance ... how many users
are really interested in tricky xml support?
Hans
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 14:20 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-07-28 15:44 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 20:36 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-28 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 28, 2008, at 4:20 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> there's the matter of what a user expects ... the core of context is
> rather stable and in that respect the 'old documentation' is still
> valid
> i.e. apart from 'new features, which may of interest to only a small
> group', the date on a manual does not tell much (i run quite some
> software which rather ancient manuals); for instance ... how many
> users
> are really interested in tricky xml support?
Only a few.
But if I want to use ConTeXt to write a book I am definitely
interested in something as mundane as endnotes. And stuff having to do
with chapter beginnings, the way paragraphs should look (e.g.
indentation, whitespace, line distance) for various types (e.g. a
normal text paragraph, a long quote from another book, etc.). And with
producing draft products (e.g. a B5 sized book that in draft is
printed two-up with the even pages on the right). Or everything that
has to do with ConTeXt's power in organizing projects and producing
mltiple outputs from single sources. All stuff I have fought with in
the past, some I find not intuitive, some of which to date I have not
been able to solve in a satisfying way. Oh, and though the
documentation may still be valid, I recall that I was trying to do
cerrtain table stuff with what was available in the manual or
excursion (the two documents that together make up the current ConTeXt
documentation) and I was pointed to another way of doing tables in a
MAPS article.
Those are very, very mundane things you want when writing a book that
are underdocumented, documented in locations that are outside the
manual or not documented at all.
I do not care if the manual is old. But the onging development of
ConTeXt has been offered as a reason why the documentation is lacking.
If this is nonsense, good. In that case there is no reason to improve
the docs so they actualy give a good overview of how to do things in
ConTeXt and understandable by non-ConTeXt-developers.
G
knuth.tex from the ConTeXt distribution says:
Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.
The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.
But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
influenced by a single person. Once the initial design is
complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
with many different viewpoints undertake their own
experiments.
Somehow, this might be applied to ConTeXt I think ;-). Three out of
four afaic...
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 15:44 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-28 20:36 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-29 9:02 ` Gerben Wierda
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-07-28 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Gerben Wierda wrote:
> Somehow, this might be applied to ConTeXt I think ;-). Three out of
> four afaic...
well, it's one reason why we have multiple smaller manuals (often made
in sync with the specific feature)
anyhow ... taco and i only have one livetime, 24h/day etc etc
currently we spend quite some time on luatex/mp/mkiv (if not we could as
well stop using tex in the near future) alongside our regular jobs ...
we simply have not much more time available ... on the other hand, we
don't intend to stop soon, so eventually ...
btw, quite some documentation about latex is *not* written by the
author(s) so it's not entirely fair to expect that taco and i write all
of it -)
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 12:48 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 12:57 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-07-28 23:07 ` Uwe Koloska
1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Koloska @ 2008-07-28 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hello,
Am Montag, 28. Juli 2008 schrieb Gerben Wierda:
> I have an idea. Why not have a live ConTeXt manual.pdf where you add
> something in the proper location and compile the document every time
> you answer a question from a user? As you are the person answering
> anyway, it should be little extra work.
A good idea! But from my pov it should be clarified a bit. We must distinguish
between:
- a user manual that tells you how to use the system and give you an overview
of the whole system and the most important parts (pictures, math, etc.)
- and a reference manual, that describes all available commands in detail.
The user manual exists (excursion and manual) but has to be revised. The
reference manual exists (http://texshow.contextgarden.net/) but is by far not
complete.
As it is very difficult to make an automated process for producing the user
manual, the candidate for the proposed semiautomatic production is the
reference manual.
Where does the XML-files that are the basis for the existing texshow
applications come from? The production of this file(s) has to be somehow
bound to the current sourcecode. Then at least all commands are present
and "only" the documentation has to be filled in. The last commands I have
learned by asking on this list, are all not present in texshow so that I was
not able to add the description there ...
For the user manual(s) (in my opinion the excursion is a part of "the
manual"), there are these steps necessary:
- provide a sourceversion that works with the current state of context
- identify the portions that are completely out of sync and cut them out (or
mark them clearly as outdated)
- provide pointers to the more current documentation for every part (and mark
differences between mkii and mkiv)
- add the missing main features
and as a bonus to the reference manual:
- make groups of commands that belong together and describe their interactions
(something like the portal pages of wikipedia)
As far as I understand the situation, the completion of the reference manual
is a realistic goal for the near future. And it is possible that everyone
helps with this by filling the answers you get on this list into the command
descriptions.
Wow, this has been gotten longer than I wanted it to be :-)
But let me close with a HUGE big THANK YOU to Hans and Taco and the other
people that make context such a great tool!
Uwe
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-28 20:36 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-07-29 9:02 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-29 12:44 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-29 9:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 28, 2008, at 10:36 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
>> Somehow, this might be applied to ConTeXt I think ;-). Three out of
>> four afaic...
>
> well, it's one reason why we have multiple smaller manuals (often made
> in sync with the specific feature)
>
> anyhow ... taco and i only have one livetime, 24h/day etc etc
As you know, I know what you are talking about. And it is important
also to keep your cups from running over if we want ConTeXt to succeed.
> currently we spend quite some time on luatex/mp/mkiv (if not we
> could as
> well stop using tex in the near future) alongside our regular jobs ...
I was wondering if you already know what you would have to use if not
TeX. Is there an alternative at all?
> we simply have not much more time available ... on the other hand, we
> don't intend to stop soon, so eventually ...
>
> btw, quite some documentation about latex is *not* written by the
> author(s) so it's not entirely fair to expect that taco and i write
> all
> of it -)
But the initial manual (as Knuth said) is different from overview
books like Kopka & Daly etc.
Knuth wrote the TeXbook, the Metafont book.
Lamport wrote the initial LaTeX book
Packages for LaTeX like memoir come with a manual written by the
authors.
There are 'combination' manuals (Kopka etc) but they all are based on
the availability of full initial manuals.
But apart from that, the most imporant thing is that resources are
scarce and you guys have limits we need to honour. I think we should
find a way for you guys to go on and not get swamped by too much and
thus we need to find a way to make your documentation work lighter (as
obviously - for me - it does not get the attention it should).
So I would propose to set up a way that a group of others can maintain
documentation. Your task would then be an editor's task: proofread,
suggest changes and agree. Minor changes can be done by the editors.
major changes go past you and Taco as editors-in-chief. Your OK
promotes it to alpha. And something like a manual (book) needs to be
part of it. This should be based on (imo) merging the content of the
excursion and the manual. The editors should be able to start a
compilation run. The result should be the 'work in progress' pdf that
has a fixed location on the pragma site. So, what we initially need is
some sort of svn repository with access by a limited group, a mailing
list for that group only. An e-mail adress to send documentation
suggestions to.
I am prepared to do some work on this (e.g. editor work).
G
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-29 9:02 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-29 12:44 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-29 20:01 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2008-07-29 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Gerben,
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Gerben Wierda wrote:
> This should be based on (imo) merging the content of the excursion and
> the manual.
Here (and sometime earlier in the thread) you have suggested that you find
the scattered documentation of ConTeXt confusing and would like to see an
exhaustive manual. I agree with that in principle, but still believe that
excursion and the manual should be separate. The manual can be a superset
of excursion, but there needs to be "beginner's manual".
If there is a exhaustive manual, it will be *huge*. An exhaustive manual
on math will be of the size of a book; so would an exhaustive manual on
metapost/mp-lib (think of an updated metafun manual). I can also imagine
an exhaustive manual for fonts to be big (how do we handle fonts for
lua/xetex/pdftex; how do we handle fonts for different scripts, etc.); and
fairly large manuals for floats (three four mechanism for tables, about 20
ways to move around floats, etc.), critical editions (I don't know the
status of the proposed module), bib module (the user manual for biblatex,
which is similar in spirit to bib module, is huge), etc.
So, if we want exhaustive documentation and a beginner's
manual, I see that we only have the option of expanding on the excursion
to have an upto date beginner's manual, expanding on the manual to have an
upto date (but not exhaustive) user manual, and have a series of
specialized exhaustive manuals. But that will still mean that the
documentation is scattered.
The way I see it, we can update the documentation, but not really solve
the problem of scattered documentation :-(
Aditya
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-29 9:02 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-29 12:44 ` Aditya Mahajan
@ 2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-29 19:54 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-30 16:21 ` Fabrice Popineau
1 sibling, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-07-29 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Gerben Wierda wrote:
> I was wondering if you already know what you would have to use if not
> TeX. Is there an alternative at all?
no, i'd probably choose a completely other job then (ok, maybe general
programming as part time then) ... i simply can not use a program that i
know will be replaced within 5 years
Hans
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-07-29 19:54 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-30 16:21 ` Fabrice Popineau
1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-29 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 29, 2008, at 8:05 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> I was wondering if you already know what you would have to use if not
>> TeX. Is there an alternative at all?
>
> no, i'd probably choose a completely other job then (ok, maybe general
> programming as part time then) ... i simply can not use a program
> that i
> know will be replaced within 5 years
Did you look at Lout? Font-wise restricted at first glance, but
interesting nonetheless.
Anyway, I still feel that something like LuaTeX with a decent ConTeXt
is the best option. But the project could do with funding by some rich
former dot-com billionaire. Because if it does not get out of the tool
shed phase, it will remain problematic for ordinary users like myself.
G
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-29 12:44 ` Aditya Mahajan
@ 2008-07-29 20:01 ` Gerben Wierda
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Gerben Wierda @ 2008-07-29 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jul 29, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> Hi Gerben,
>
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
>> This should be based on (imo) merging the content of the excursion
>> and
>> the manual.
>
> Here (and sometime earlier in the thread) you have suggested that
> you find
> the scattered documentation of ConTeXt confusing and would like to
> see an
> exhaustive manual. I agree with that in principle, but still believe
> that
> excursion and the manual should be separate. The manual can be a
> superset
> of excursion, but there needs to be "beginner's manual".
>
> If there is a exhaustive manual, it will be *huge*. An exhaustive
> manual
> on math will be of the size of a book; so would an exhaustive manual
> on
> metapost/mp-lib (think of an updated metafun manual). I can also
> imagine
> an exhaustive manual for fonts to be big (how do we handle fonts for
> lua/xetex/pdftex; how do we handle fonts for different scripts,
> etc.); and
> fairly large manuals for floats (three four mechanism for tables,
> about 20
> ways to move around floats, etc.), critical editions (I don't know the
> status of the proposed module), bib module (the user manual for
> biblatex,
> which is similar in spirit to bib module, is huge), etc.
>
> So, if we want exhaustive documentation and a beginner's
> manual, I see that we only have the option of expanding on the
> excursion
> to have an upto date beginner's manual, expanding on the manual to
> have an
> upto date (but not exhaustive) user manual, and have a series of
> specialized exhaustive manuals. But that will still mean that the
> documentation is scattered.
>
> The way I see it, we can update the documentation, but not really
> solve
> the problem of scattered documentation :-(
Before things balloon to a size it is not feasible anymore, I would
suggest keeping manual&reference apart from introductory documents
like excursion or 'beginners manual'. And I would be very happy if
there was only one decent manual&reference maintained by a group of
people, complete and up to date. thers could maintain a beginner's
manual on the basis of that, but add the maintenance of a second
beginner's manual and suddenly one needs to maintain two things. This
cannot completely be avoided (as also in the manual the same thing
will be in many places as technique 1 is part of the example for
technique 2, etc.).
At first, I would suggest that the documentation project would
consider itself with one thing: a 'user & reference manual' for
ConTeXt. If that succeeds and people have energy left they can do a
simplified beginner's manual.
Note: personally, I think a beginner's manual could be part of the big
manual. Say, an 'excursion' chapter or a 'beginner's section' at the
start of each chapter..
G
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-29 19:54 ` Gerben Wierda
@ 2008-07-30 16:21 ` Fabrice Popineau
2008-07-31 16:17 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Fabrice Popineau @ 2008-07-30 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> i simply can not use a program that i
> know will be replaced within 5 years
And there are not so many stable tools.
TeX and Lisp.
:-)
Fabrice
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* Re: cont-enp.pdf on lulu
2008-07-30 16:21 ` Fabrice Popineau
@ 2008-07-31 16:17 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-07-31 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Fabrice Popineau wrote:
>> i simply can not use a program that i
>> know will be replaced within 5 years
>
> And there are not so many stable tools.
> TeX and Lisp.
>
> :-)
and hopefully lua -)
Hans
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-07-31 16:17 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 23+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-07-21 23:58 cont-enp.pdf on lulu abbg770
2008-07-22 0:37 ` John Culleton
2008-07-25 20:07 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-25 22:42 ` luigi scarso
2008-07-25 23:31 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-26 2:38 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-27 19:40 ` David
2008-07-28 9:50 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 10:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 12:48 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 12:57 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-07-28 14:11 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-28 23:07 ` Uwe Koloska
2008-07-28 14:20 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-28 15:44 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-28 20:36 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-29 9:02 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-29 12:44 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-07-29 20:01 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-29 18:05 ` Hans Hagen
2008-07-29 19:54 ` Gerben Wierda
2008-07-30 16:21 ` Fabrice Popineau
2008-07-31 16:17 ` Hans Hagen
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