MkII vs. MkIV

MkII vs. MkIV

[Marcin Borkowski]

Hi,

Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
page breaks?

Greets

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)

- Why vim users don't use the ESC key?
- It's too far on the keyboard.  It's faster to type ctrl-[.
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
> page breaks?

Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the interline 
space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I experienced 
around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.

Aditya
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 04.11.2008 um 21:20 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
>> page breaks?
>
> Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the  
> interline
> space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I  
> experienced
> around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.

The interlinespace in MkII and MkIV is the same and both use a distance
of 2.8ex between the lines. One difference between the two engines are
the used fonts, pdfTeX use type 1 fonts and luaTeX MkIV opentype fonts.

Wolfgang

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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Marcin Borkowski]

Dnia Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 09:41:43PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster napisał(a):
> 
> Am 04.11.2008 um 21:20 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
> 
> > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
> >> page breaks?
> >
> > Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the  
> > interline
> > space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I  
> > experienced
> > around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.
> 
> The interlinespace in MkII and MkIV is the same and both use a distance
> of 2.8ex between the lines. One difference between the two engines are
> the used fonts, pdfTeX use type 1 fonts and luaTeX MkIV opentype fonts.

Thank you for your prompt answers.  I am a bit surprised, though, that
the otf and Type1 Latin Modern fonts are not compatible.  Strange thing.
Seems it will be a good idea to stick to MkIV...

> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)

Stłumiony głos w końcu wypowie słowo prawdy - otworzą się usta!
Prawda - choćby zdeptana - zawsze pozostanie prawdą!
Żadna przemoc, chamstwo, kłamstwo nie uczynią z niej ofiary!
                        (Izaiash)
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Thank you for your prompt answers.  I am a bit surprised, though, that
> the otf and Type1 Latin Modern fonts are not compatible.  Strange thing.

  You should come to BachoTeX.  In 2007 Jerzy Ludwichowski and Bogusław
Jackowski started their talk about TeX Gyre by screaming "Full
compatibility means no progress!" at the audience :-)

	Arthur
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Marcin Borkowski]

Dnia Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 10:06:13PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer napisał(a):
> > Thank you for your prompt answers.  I am a bit surprised, though, that
> > the otf and Type1 Latin Modern fonts are not compatible.  Strange thing.
> 
>   You should come to BachoTeX.  In 2007 Jerzy Ludwichowski and Bogusław
> Jackowski started their talk about TeX Gyre by screaming "Full
> compatibility means no progress!" at the audience :-)

I know that, I read some of the GUST people papers;).  I thought,
however, that it wouldn't influence my documents *so much*;).

Coming to Bachotek in 2008 is impossible for me (as I already wrote, I
guess): me and my wife will celebrate our 5th wedding anniversary:).
Maybe in 2009...

> 	Arthur

Greets

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)

888 * ostre słowa * ostra muzyka * ostra płyta
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 04.11.2008 um 22:51 schrieb Marcin Borkowski:

> Dnia Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 10:06:13PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer  
> napisał(a):
>>> Thank you for your prompt answers.  I am a bit surprised, though,  
>>> that
>>> the otf and Type1 Latin Modern fonts are not compatible.  Strange  
>>> thing.
>>
>>  You should come to BachoTeX.  In 2007 Jerzy Ludwichowski and  
>> Bogusław
>> Jackowski started their talk about TeX Gyre by screaming "Full
>> compatibility means no progress!" at the audience :-)
>
> I know that, I read some of the GUST people papers;).  I thought,
> however, that it wouldn't influence my documents *so much*;).

LuaTeX did not always behave like pdfTeX and if you want the same result
in your document as in the past, don't switch. The different code for  
MkII and
MkIV are another reason for different output in a few cases.

Wolfgang

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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Marcin Borkowski]

Dnia Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 11:02:13PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster napisał(a):
> 
> Am 04.11.2008 um 22:51 schrieb Marcin Borkowski:
> 
> > Dnia Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 10:06:13PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer  
> > napisał(a):
> >>> Thank you for your prompt answers.  I am a bit surprised, though,  
> >>> that
> >>> the otf and Type1 Latin Modern fonts are not compatible.  Strange  
> >>> thing.
> >>
> >>  You should come to BachoTeX.  In 2007 Jerzy Ludwichowski and  
> >> Bogusław
> >> Jackowski started their talk about TeX Gyre by screaming "Full
> >> compatibility means no progress!" at the audience :-)
> >
> > I know that, I read some of the GUST people papers;).  I thought,
> > however, that it wouldn't influence my documents *so much*;).
> 
> LuaTeX did not always behave like pdfTeX and if you want the same result
> in your document as in the past, don't switch. The different code for  
> MkII and
> MkIV are another reason for different output in a few cases.

Well, since I'm really a beginner, I don't have much ConTeXt documents.
So I guess the sooner I switch, the better - especially that MkIV is
better for my itemizations;).

> 
> Wolfgang
> 
Greets

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)

888 * Nie lękaj się * Ja zawsze będę z Tobą!
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

>
> Am 04.11.2008 um 21:20 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
>>> page breaks?
>>
>> Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the
>> interline
>> space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I
>> experienced
>> around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.
>
> The interlinespace in MkII and MkIV is the same and both use a distance
> of 2.8ex between the lines.

Yes, but ex means different dimensions in pdftex and luatex. For example

\starttext

1ex = \the\dimexpr1ex\relax \crlf
2.8ex = \the\dimexpr2.8ex\relax

\stoptext

gives in MKII

1ex = 5.16667pt
2.8ex = 14.46669pt

and in MKIV gives

1ex = 5.172pt
2.8ex = 14.4816pt

The reason is that what ex means is hardcoded in MKII but MKIV gets this 
info from the font. For example, if I use palatino at 12pt, the result in 
MKII does not change, but MKIV gives

1ex = 5.388pt
2.8ex = 15.08641pt

So, depending on the font, MKII and MKIV can have considerably different 
lines per page.

Aditya
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Wolfgang Schuster]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:00 AM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 04.11.2008 um 21:20 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
>>>> page breaks?
>>>
>>> Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the
>>> interline
>>> space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I
>>> experienced
>>> around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.
>>
>> The interlinespace in MkII and MkIV is the same and both use a distance
>> of 2.8ex between the lines.
>
> Yes, but ex means different dimensions in pdftex and luatex. For example
>
> \starttext
>
> 1ex = \the\dimexpr1ex\relax \crlf
> 2.8ex = \the\dimexpr2.8ex\relax
>
> \stoptext
>
> gives in MKII
>
> 1ex = 5.16667pt
> 2.8ex = 14.46669pt

Interesting!

\font\palatino=texnansi-uplr8a at 12pt

\starttext

1ex = \the\dimexpr\exheight\relax\crlf
2.8ex = \the\dimexpr2.8\exheight\relax

\blank

1ex = \the\dimexpr\fontdimen5\palatino\relax \crlf
2.8ex = \the\dimexpr2.8\fontdimen5\palatino\relax

\stoptext

> and in MKIV gives
>
> 1ex = 5.172pt
> 2.8ex = 14.4816pt
>
> The reason is that what ex means is hardcoded in MKII but MKIV gets this
> info from the font. For example, if I use palatino at 12pt, the result in
> MKII does not change, but MKIV gives
>
> 1ex = 5.388pt
> 2.8ex = 15.08641pt
>
> So, depending on the font, MKII and MKIV can have considerably different
> lines per page.

Thanks for the example, another point to use LuaTeX.

Wolfgang
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Re: MkII vs. MkIV

[Hans Hagen]

Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
>> Am 04.11.2008 um 21:20 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Is it normal that output from MkII and MkIV are different in terms of
>>>> page breaks?
>>> Yes. In MKII the interline space is hard coded. MKIV gets the
>>> interline
>>> space from the font. So, you will get different page breaks. I
>>> experienced
>>> around 2-5 pages difference in a 100 page document.
>> The interlinespace in MkII and MkIV is the same and both use a distance
>> of 2.8ex between the lines.
> 
> Yes, but ex means different dimensions in pdftex and luatex. For example
> 
> \starttext
> 
> 1ex = \the\dimexpr1ex\relax \crlf
> 2.8ex = \the\dimexpr2.8ex\relax
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> gives in MKII
> 
> 1ex = 5.16667pt
> 2.8ex = 14.46669pt
> 
> and in MKIV gives
> 
> 1ex = 5.172pt
> 2.8ex = 14.4816pt
> 
> The reason is that what ex means is hardcoded in MKII but MKIV gets this 
> info from the font. For example, if I use palatino at 12pt, the result in 
> MKII does not change, but MKIV gives
> 
> 1ex = 5.388pt
> 2.8ex = 15.08641pt
> 
> So, depending on the font, MKII and MKIV can have considerably different 
> lines per page.

- for type 1, mkiv gets the info from the afm file and has some 
heuristics if it's not in there; in mkii it's set in the tfm and such 
values can depends on decisions made while making the tfm file

- for otf again the info is taken from the font file

in both cases, there is no longer the limitations imposed by the tfm 
format (like discrete number of ht/dp) and as such there can be 
differences between mkii and mkiv

Hans


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