patterns for German in mkiv

patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi all,

something fishy is going on with hyphenation patterns for German in  
mkiv. Here's a minimal test file:

\starttext

{\de \hyphenatedword{sich}}

\stoptext

please compile with mkii and mkiv and see the difference. The word  
should of course not be hyphenated.

All best

Thomas
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> something fishy is going on with hyphenation patterns for German in  
> mkiv. Here's a minimal test file:
> 
> \starttext
> 
> {\de \hyphenatedword{sich}}
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> please compile with mkii and mkiv and see the difference. The word  
> should of course not be hyphenated.

so th epatterns are not good enough for lefthyphenmin=2

we can set (for de) ...

    \c!lefthyphenmin=3,
    \c!righthyphenmin=3,

is that ok then?


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 22, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> something fishy is going on with hyphenation patterns for German in
>> mkiv. Here's a minimal test file:
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> {\de \hyphenatedword{sich}}
>>
>> \stoptext
>>
>> please compile with mkii and mkiv and see the difference. The word
>> should of course not be hyphenated.
>
> so th epatterns are not good enough for lefthyphenmin=2
>
> we can set (for de) ...
>
>    \c!lefthyphenmin=3,
>    \c!righthyphenmin=3,
>
> is that ok then?
>
It would help in this particular case, but in general, a hyphenation  
such as "al-le" ist correct, so left|righthyphenmin=2 is OK. I suspect  
the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the  
patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how  
have they been produced?

Thomas
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> something fishy is going on with hyphenation patterns for German in
>>> mkiv. Here's a minimal test file:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>>
>>> {\de \hyphenatedword{sich}}
>>>
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> please compile with mkii and mkiv and see the difference. The word
>>> should of course not be hyphenated.
>> so th epatterns are not good enough for lefthyphenmin=2
>>
>> we can set (for de) ...
>>
>>    \c!lefthyphenmin=3,
>>    \c!righthyphenmin=3,
>>
>> is that ok then?
>>
> It would help in this particular case, but in general, a hyphenation  
> such as "al-le" ist correct, so left|righthyphenmin=2 is OK. I suspect  
> the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the  
> patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how  
> have they been produced?

i don't know; maybe do some experiments with mkii versus mkiv and 
different hyphenmin settings to see what happens

Hans


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> I suspect
> the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the
> patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how
> have they been produced?

It uses the patterns
   `dehypht-x' 2008-06-18 (WL)

Wait!!! Have de and deo been switched????
    { "de",  "hyph-de-1901.tex",       "german, old spelling" },
    { "deo", "hyph-de-1996.tex",       "german, new spelling" },

Even though this is probably not the reason for your problem since
mkii and mkiv should use the same patterns(?), the two lines in
mtxrun.lua need to be switched.

Mojca
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>
>> I suspect
>> the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the
>> patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how
>> have they been produced?
>
> It uses the patterns
>   `dehypht-x' 2008-06-18 (WL)

Sorry, I was a bit inaccurate. It uses patterns from
tex/context/patterns/lang-de.pat which have been generated with
    mtxrun --script pattern --convert
that more or less copies contents of hyph-de-1901.tex (should be
1996). And those patterns are more or less a literal copy of
http://repo.or.cz/w/wortliste.git plus maybe some time delay.

Mojca

PS: in LaTeX there is indeed a difference whether one uses pdfTeX or
XeTeX/LuaTeX since the two engines load differente patterns, but in
ConTeXt I see no reason for a different behaviour.
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 22, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> PS: in LaTeX there is indeed a difference whether one uses pdfTeX or
> XeTeX/LuaTeX since the two engines load differente patterns, but in
> ConTeXt I see no reason for a different behaviour.

Hmm, that's a nice understatement :-) Fact is that the wrong  
hyphenation only occurs when I compile my little test document with  
luatex; both xetex and pdftex give the expected result. Changing left| 
righthyphenmin is definitely a hack and not the correct way to go.  
Btw, the result stays the same when I set the language to deo instead  
of de.

Thomas
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
>> PS: in LaTeX there is indeed a difference whether one uses pdfTeX or
>> XeTeX/LuaTeX since the two engines load differente patterns, but in
>> ConTeXt I see no reason for a different behaviour.
> 
> Hmm, that's a nice understatement :-) Fact is that the wrong  
> hyphenation only occurs when I compile my little test document with  
> luatex; both xetex and pdftex give the expected result. Changing left| 
> righthyphenmin is definitely a hack and not the correct way to go.  
> Btw, the result stays the same when I set the language to deo instead  
> of de.

what does xetex, pdftex, luatex report for:

{\de \thelefthyphenmin blabla}


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 22, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> what does xetex, pdftex, luatex report for:
>
> {\de \thelefthyphenmin blabla}

\the\lefthyphenmin is 2 in all engines
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>> what does xetex, pdftex, luatex report for:
>>
>> {\de \thelefthyphenmin blabla}
> 
> \the\lefthyphenmin is 2 in all engines

ok, luatex has a reimplemented hyphenation machinery so that may be a 
reason; another can be that we don't use the german patterns at all 
although i do see a difference ..


\setupcolors[state=start]

\starttext

\en \hyphenatedword{blabla hello smithonian bugs schmitzonian bugs 
schmitzlich}

\de \hyphenatedword{blabla hello smithonian bugs schmitzonian bugs 
schmitzlich}

\nl \hyphenatedword{blabla hello smithonian bugs schmitzonian bugs 
schmitzlich}

\sv \hyphenatedword{blabla hello smithonian bugs schmitzonian bugs 
schmitzlich}

\stoptext


Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> I suspect
>> the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the
>> patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how
>> have they been produced?
> 
> It uses the patterns
>    `dehypht-x' 2008-06-18 (WL)
> 
> Wait!!! Have de and deo been switched????
>     { "de",  "hyph-de-1901.tex",       "german, old spelling" },
>     { "deo", "hyph-de-1996.tex",       "german, new spelling" },

hey, didn't *you* check that? lucky us that no german user noticed the 
difference

> Even though this is probably not the reason for your problem since
> mkii and mkiv should use the same patterns(?), the two lines in
> mtxrun.lua need to be switched.

ok, i swapped them in mtx-patterns and swapped the de and deo files in 
my  tree


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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>> I suspect
>>> the error is not in lefthyphenmin and righthyphenmin, but in the
>>> patterns themselves. Which patterns does mkiv actually use, and how
>>> have they been produced?
>>
>> It uses the patterns
>>    `dehypht-x' 2008-06-18 (WL)
>>
>> Wait!!! Have de and deo been switched????
>>     { "de",  "hyph-de-1901.tex",       "german, old spelling" },
>>     { "deo", "hyph-de-1996.tex",       "german, new spelling" },
>
> hey, didn't *you* check that?

I should have checked, yes. I did, but I oversaw this. I admit, it's
all my fault (lucky me that I don't know the differences between the
two orthographies well enough).

> ok, i swapped them in mtx-patterns and swapped the de and deo files in
> my  tree

There have recently been some more changes (for example Hungarian now
includes way more extensive patterns, and Lithuanian and Latvian have
been added, but there's no support for the two languages in ConTeXt
anyway). Just FYI.

(Just out of curiosity - why has { "agr", "hyph-grc", "ancient greek"
} been commented out? My next question to Thomas would be how you
handle those patterns in pdftex, but I won't ask that.)

> ok, luatex has a reimplemented hyphenation machinery so that may be a
> reason; another can be that we don't use the german patterns at all
> although i do see a difference ..

My fear is that there could be some tiny difference in that
reimplementation of hyphenation algorithm. Most words hyphenate
properly and equally in both engines. This is the first
counter-example that I have seen. But that might be something for Taco
to check.

Mojca
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 22, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> My fear is that there could be some tiny difference in that
> reimplementation of hyphenation algorithm. Most words hyphenate
> properly and equally in both engines. This is the first
> counter-example that I have seen. But that might be something for Taco
> to check.
>
> Mojca

To be honest: this is something that has been bugging me for quite a  
while, I just took some time to realize what the problem was. In all  
my texts, the letters "ch" get hyphenated at the end, and many German  
adjectives end in "ch" (see "lich" in Hans's example).

What I don't understand: doesn't mkiv/luatex use the same patterns  
that XeTeX uses? Then why the deuce does it show different  
hyphenation? For German users, this is pretty serious, a hyphenation  
like "niedli-ch" is really bad and neither in traditional nor  
modernized German spelling.

Thomas
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Taco Hoekwater]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> 
> What I don't understand: doesn't mkiv/luatex use the same patterns  
> that XeTeX uses? Then why the deuce does it show different  
> hyphenation? For German users, this is pretty serious, a hyphenation  
> like "niedli-ch" is really bad and neither in traditional nor  
> modernized German spelling.

This must be a bug in luatex, hyphenation is supposed to be identical
but the whole algorithm is redone, and obviously not flawlessly.

It seems there is (at least) a problem with all patterns that are
supposed to end a word. For example, the "4ch." that is supposed to
prevent i-ch appears to be ignored  (at first glance, it looks like it
is interpreted as "c4h." and etc. for all others with a trailing ".")

I will investigate further next week, at the office.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 22, 2008, at 6:56 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> This must be a bug in luatex, hyphenation is supposed to be identical
> but the whole algorithm is redone, and obviously not flawlessly.
>
> It seems there is (at least) a problem with all patterns that are
> supposed to end a word. For example, the "4ch." that is supposed to
> prevent i-ch appears to be ignored  (at first glance, it looks like it
> is interpreted as "c4h." and etc. for all others with a trailing ".")
>
> I will investigate further next week, at the office.
>
> Best wishes,
> Taco

Excellent, Taco, you're on the case! Looking forward to hearing about  
your little investigation - "elementary, my dear Watson!" :)

All best

Thomas
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Taco Hoekwater]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2008, at 6:56 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
>> This must be a bug in luatex, hyphenation is supposed to be identical
>> but the whole algorithm is redone, and obviously not flawlessly.
>>
>> It seems there is (at least) a problem with all patterns that are
>> supposed to end a word. For example, the "4ch." that is supposed to
>> prevent i-ch appears to be ignored  (at first glance, it looks like it
>> is interpreted as "c4h." and etc. for all others with a trailing ".")
>>
>> I will investigate further next week, at the office.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Taco
> 
> Excellent, Taco, you're on the case! Looking forward to hearing about  
> your little investigation - "elementary, my dear Watson!" :)

I wouldn't say it was elementary, but it is fixed now. Sometime
later this week I will create a 0.30.3 (as this is a grave bug),
but if you want to verify: the fix is in the source repository
(#1576-1578).

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 24, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> I wouldn't say it was elementary, but it is fixed now. Sometime
> later this week I will create a 0.30.3 (as this is a grave bug),
> but if you want to verify: the fix is in the source repository
> (#1576-1578).
>
> Best wishes,
> Taco

Hi Taco,

of course I was curious and tried to compile the trunk, but I get an  
error:

/usr/bin/ar rv libopenbsd-compat.a bsd-asprintf.o bsd-snprintf.o   
strlcat.o strlcpy.o strsep.o strtonum.o strtoll.o strtoul.o
ar: creating archive libopenbsd-compat.a
a - bsd-asprintf.o
a - bsd-snprintf.o
a - strlcat.o
a - strlcpy.o
a - strsep.o
a - strtonum.o
a - strtoll.o
a - strtoul.o
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(bsd-asprintf.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(bsd-snprintf.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strlcat.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strlcpy.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strsep.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strtoll.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strtoul.o) has no symbols
ranlib libopenbsd-compat.a
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(bsd-asprintf.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(bsd-snprintf.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strlcat.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strlcpy.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strsep.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strtoll.o) has no symbols
ranlib: file: libopenbsd-compat.a(strtoul.o) has no symbols
mkdir -p ../../libs/lua51 && cd ../../libs/lua51 && cp -f ../../../src/ 
texk/web2c/../../libs/lua51/* . && make posix
Makefile:25: *** missing separator.  Stop.
make: *** [../../libs/lua51/liblua.a] Error 2

Hope this is nothing too serious...

All best, and thanks

Thomas
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Taco Hoekwater]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> mkdir -p ../../libs/lua51 && cd ../../libs/lua51 && cp -f ../../../src/ 
> texk/web2c/../../libs/lua51/* . && make posix
> Makefile:25: *** missing separator.  Stop.
> make: *** [../../libs/lua51/liblua.a] Error 2
> 
> Hope this is nothing too serious...

It looks like your checkout is not complete (locally editted files?),
line 25 of libs/lua51/Makefile should now be a commented-out line:

#COCOCFLAGS= -DCOCO_USE_SETJMP

Best wishes,
Taco




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Re: patterns for German in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> It looks like your checkout is not complete (locally editted files?),
> line 25 of libs/lua51/Makefile should now be a commented-out line:
>
> #COCOCFLAGS= -DCOCO_USE_SETJMP
>
> Best wishes,
> Taco
>

Strange. I deleted the Makefile and let svn regenerate it, and now  
compilation works. And the wrong hyphenations are gone! Hooray and  
three cheers, thanks Taco!

All best

Thomas
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