* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 18:57 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-20 19:31 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-20 21:02 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-20 20:23 ` Khaled Hosny
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-20 19:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:22 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
Hmm, not sure if this is a good idea, see below.
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>> I tested).
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
> features=yes|no)
Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic
instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end user
interface we can have keys like
featureset=ms_arabic
But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For
example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in
Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is
not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar. Also, what about Arabic
fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?
We've still got lots to do before settling on a very high-end interface so
there is time to think about this some more...
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 19:31 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-20 21:02 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-20 21:23 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-20 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2876 bytes --]
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 12:31:49PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:22 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>
> Hmm, not sure if this is a good idea, see below.
>
>>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>>> I tested).
>
>> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
>> features=yes|no)
>
> Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic
>
> instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end
> user interface we can have keys like
>
> featureset=ms_arabic
I think the 'ms' part is't really needed, we can just call it"arabic",
or are we going to have more Arabic feature sets?
> But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For
> example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in
> Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is
> not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar.
That is beyond OpenType support, since Traditional Arabic is essentially
broken at many levels, even when Uniscribe is used (vowel marks break
lam-alef ligatures for example), Ms Arabic fonts are special case since
they were developed long ago before OpenType and aren't the best
examples.
> Also, what about Arabic
> fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?
AFAIK, Microsoft's Uniscribe is the reference OpenType implementation,
and I assume that Apple's OpenType implementation follows its
recommendations (I can't test that).
>
> We've still got lots to do before settling on a very high-end interface
> so there is time to think about this some more...
Of course, we aren't in hurry.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 21:02 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-20 21:23 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-20 22:10 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-20 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:02:58 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
>>>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>>>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a
>>>> "UI
>>>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>>>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the
>>>> ones
>>>> I tested).
>>
>>> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
>>> features=yes|no)
>>
>> Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic
>>
>> instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end
>> user interface we can have keys like
>>
>> featureset=ms_arabic
>
> I think the 'ms' part is't really needed, we can just call it"arabic",
> or are we going to have more Arabic feature sets?
We are almost certainly going to have more :-)
>> But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For
>> example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in
>> Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is
>> not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar.
>
> That is beyond OpenType support, since Traditional Arabic is essentially
> broken at many levels, even when Uniscribe is used (vowel marks break
> lam-alef ligatures for example), Ms Arabic fonts are special case since
> they were developed long ago before OpenType and aren't the best
> examples.
OTOH there are a lot of arabic fonts like this around that we want to
support as well if we can... We a font categorization scheme to fit the
most used fonts in the this regard.
>> Also, what about Arabic
>> fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?
>
> AFAIK, Microsoft's Uniscribe is the reference OpenType implementation,
> and I assume that Apple's OpenType implementation follows its
> recommendations (I can't test that).
This is something we should investigate... uniscribe is quirky in a few
areas -- it does extra spell-checking beyond what Arabic actually needs,
for example. That's one reason I'm not comfortable with using it as a
default standard.
Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic fonts?
Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of what's
available, checking for available OT features, etc.
سلام
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 21:23 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-20 22:10 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-20 22:26 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-20 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic
> fonts? Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of
> what's available, checking for available OT features, etc.
also, it would be nice to have some quality otf arabic fonts in tex live
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 22:10 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-20 22:26 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-21 23:53 ` Karl Berry
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-20 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Karl Berry
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:10:52 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
>
>> Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic
>> fonts? Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of
>> what's available, checking for available OT features, etc.
>
> also, it would be nice to have some quality otf arabic fonts in tex live
Why not just include the SIL arabic fonts?
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=OFL-FAQ_web
===============
1.3 Can I make the fonts available to others from my web site?
Yes, as long as you meet the conditions of the license (do not sell by
itself, include the necessary files, rename Modified Versions, do not
abuse the Author(s)' name(s) and do not sublicense).
1.4 Can the fonts be included with Free/Libre and Open Source Software
collections such as GNU/Linux and BSD distributions?
Yes! Fonts licensed under the OFL can be freely aggregated with software
under FLOSS (Free/Libre and Open Source Software) licenses. Since fonts
are much more useful aggregated to than merged with existing software,
possible incompatibility with existing software licenses is not a problem.
You can also repackage the fonts and the accompanying components in a .rpm
or .deb package and include them in distro CD/DVDs and online repositories.
===============
Seems similar enough to Texie licences for inclusion.
[cc'ing karl]
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 18:57 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-20 19:31 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-20 20:23 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-20 22:07 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
2009-02-21 21:14 ` Otared Kavian
3 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-20 20:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2438 bytes --]
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 07:57:22PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>> rendering.
>>
>> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>>
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts (think
> of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if ms
> is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries support
> all features)
I didn't find any other sources, and this seem to be the only published
source of such information.
> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages and
> scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be needed
> i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used for latin it
> not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a matrix of features /
> scripts needed
I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
that).
> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
I know :) just my two cents.
> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision
> here as it will influence compatibility)
I see.
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 20:23 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-20 22:07 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-20 22:49 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-20 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
> that).
>
>> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>
> I know :) just my two cents.
how about making a wiki page where we collect fontnames + assumed
default features (+ test if possible); the problem is that fonts
themselves don't have that info
it's no problem to have a database in mkiv that uses this info so that
at some point we can default to a feature set based on font name
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 22:07 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-20 22:49 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-21 15:58 ` Ilda Khaki
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-20 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --]
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:07:08PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
>> that).
>>
>>> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>>
>> I know :) just my two cents.
>
> how about making a wiki page where we collect fontnames + assumed
> default features (+ test if possible); the problem is that fonts
> themselves don't have that info
>
> it's no problem to have a database in mkiv that uses this info so that
> at some point we can default to a feature set based on font name
I'll try to do that, though I'm pretty sure that the assumed default
features will be what Microsoft recommends, but it is worth more
investigation.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 22:49 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-21 15:58 ` Ilda Khaki
2009-02-23 10:58 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Ilda Khaki @ 2009-02-21 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 355 bytes --]
In fact there are some Persian/Arabic fonts in TL08 and there is no need to
include them. They are a part of xepersian package. I think they should be
at fonts/truetype/xepersian
These fonts include SIL's font in addition to farsiweb fonts.
Looking at CTAN, it seems that the author of xepersian is not going to
include these fonts in his next release.
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 376 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-21 15:58 ` Ilda Khaki
@ 2009-02-23 10:58 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Ilda Khaki wrote:
> In fact there are some Persian/Arabic fonts in TL08 and there is no need to
> include them. They are a part of xepersian package. I think they should be
> at fonts/truetype/xepersian
>
> These fonts include SIL's font in addition to farsiweb fonts.
>
> Looking at CTAN, it seems that the author of xepersian is not going to
> include these fonts in his next release.
so, arabic user on this list should join forces and make an arabic font
package for ctan then (maybe even do a few more sil fonts, like for
latin and hebrew and i think that there's also a greek one)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 18:57 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-20 19:31 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-20 20:23 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
` (2 more replies)
2009-02-21 21:14 ` Otared Kavian
3 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Otared Kavian @ 2009-02-21 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those
specialist typesetters who want particular features to be turned on,
to do so through appropriate mechanisms.
As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF
or other font specifications, I don't know which features are
essential for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any
language using Arabic alphabet.
While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = xecontext
\TeXXeTstate=1
% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\font\Faarsi="Scheherazade:script=arab" at 14pt
\Faarsi
% defining a font for Roman languages
\font\romfont="Times Roman" at 12pt
\def\rom#1{{\beginL\romfont #1\endL}}
\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }
\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%
it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv:
for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are
installed on his system before getting a result…
%%%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = mkiv
\setupdirections[bidi=global]
% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\definefontfeature
[CrypticFeatures]
[analyze=yes,
mode=node,
language=dflt,
script=arab,
aalt=yes,
init=yes,
medi=yes,
fina=yes,
isol=yes,
liga=yes,
mset=yes]
%\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt % this does not work
% after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
\font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt
% defining a font for Roman languages
\setupbodyfont[12pt]
\def\rom#1{{\start \textdir TLT #1 \stop}}
\pardir TRT \textdir TRT
\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}
\start
\Faarsi
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stop
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%
The ideal situation would be:
• in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with
certain standard features is set by default;
• when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then
certain features are set by default;
• possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start]
[...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages
such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),
could be imagined;
• for instance, as we have now in ConTeXt, when one has a document
written in English, then without even defining a font one can write
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
\stoptext
Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing
the user to write
\setupArabic[state=start]
\setupHanzi[state=start]
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left,
in the midst of some English text:
\startArabic
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stopArabic
and analogously this is in Hanzi
\startHanzi
大家你好
stopHanzi
\stoptext
I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own
environment and installing fonts, etc. But
for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the
intricacies.
With my best regards: OK
On 20 févr. 09, at 19:57, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all
>> features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one,
>> not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper
>> font
>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so
>> that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic
>> font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a
>> certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives
>> a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the
>> ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts
> (think of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if
> ms is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries
> support all features)
>
> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages
> and scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be
> needed i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used
> for latin it not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a
> matrix of features / scripts needed
>
> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>
> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision
> here as it will influence compatibility)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
> | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
@ 2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-22 22:44 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-23 10:53 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-22 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-22 23:35 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-22 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1502 bytes --]
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 02:05:01PM +0100, Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
>
> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so
> through appropriate mechanisms.
>
> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using
> Arabic alphabet.
I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
display of it, some thing like:
\mainlanguage[arabic]
\startext
أهلا بالعالم!
\stoptext
Should be all what I user need to get an Arabic page.
I can even imaging a script analyzer in MkIV that classifies input text
and applies fonts/font features per script (Pango kinda does this), with
may be some high level commands like:
\setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]
Which specifies the default font per script.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-22 22:44 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-23 12:02 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 10:53 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-22 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:03:56 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
> display of it, some thing like:
>
> \mainlanguage[arabic]
> \startext
> أهلا بالعالم!
> \stoptext
Fonts will always be complicated... for what you are describing we need to
start with a default Arabic-script font for TeX, like LM for Latin. My
suggestion is to make Scheherazade that font, since it is free,
distributable, and supports nearly all Arabic script languages. We could
make two settings:
one for Scheherazade as the LM fallback for the needed Ar-script ranges
for unicode,
another for Scheherazade as the main font, with Termes as Latin fallback.
That will give us a benchmark from which to proceed with other fonts. If I
get time I'll try to build typescripts etc for this scenario, or Khaled or
someone else can take on this task, and I'll review it.
Even Scheherazade has lots of options, and it will take some research to
get the "ideal" default even here.
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-22 22:44 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-23 12:02 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 13:00 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 15:34 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2027 bytes --]
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 03:44:13PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:03:56 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
>> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
>> display of it, some thing like:
>>
>> \mainlanguage[arabic]
>> \startext
>> أهلا بالعالم!
>> \stoptext
>
> Fonts will always be complicated... for what you are describing we need
> to start with a default Arabic-script font for TeX, like LM for Latin. My
> suggestion is to make Scheherazade that font, since it is free,
> distributable, and supports nearly all Arabic script languages. We could
> make two settings:
>
> one for Scheherazade as the LM fallback for the needed Ar-script ranges
> for unicode,
>
> another for Scheherazade as the main font, with Termes as Latin fallback.
> That will give us a benchmark from which to proceed with other fonts. If
> I get time I'll try to build typescripts etc for this scenario, or Khaled
> or someone else can take on this task, and I'll review it.
>
> Even Scheherazade has lots of options, and it will take some research to
> get the "ideal" default even here.
I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept. I was experimenting with
a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
prone.
If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
alternative by the end of this year.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:02 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 13:00 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 15:34 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 13:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept. I was experimenting with
> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
> prone.
so, in addition to collecting 'default features per font' we also need
to collect info about quality and missing or broken things
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:02 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 13:00 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-23 15:34 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-23 17:15 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-23 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:02:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept.
There is a hadith
لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور
Scheherazade is certainly not perfect -- and I doubt I'll ever use it
personally -- but it's the best freely available option we have. If I
understand the license correctly, we can rename it and turn it into a
project. You, Otared, and others are expressing the need for a standard,
default interface, so let's start with this and build on it. If there is
another pure opentype font that is better, let me know and I'll test it.
The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every
Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform that
all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or a
fork of Scheherazade -- become available.
BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but it's
there. Maybe you have an old version?
> I was experimenting with
> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
> prone.
I'm not sure if the VOLT sources are available, although I used a
font-to-volt script that seems to have captured nearly everything. I guess
you use FF but no matter: Just make a list of problems and the minimal --
as opposed to ideal -- set of recommended changes and one or both of us
can work on this over the next few months.
I would also look at Lotus Light -- a simple/simplistic yet probably the
most commonly used commercial traditional font in the Arabic and Farsi
worlds -- as an ideal default font for general usage. Khaled, note that,
although Lotus also has a few contextual forms, in practice it is
generally used by publishers without them.
BTW: The above is solely for the purposes that Khaled and Otared are
pointing out, viz, a default Very High Level Interface for default Arabic
script, for use by the average user for general documents, and with
little-to-no tweaking. Otherwise, Scheherazade is virtually useless for my
own projects.
> If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
> the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
> alternative by the end of this year.
See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work on
it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the
following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to Lotus.
Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to
easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than
Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So
if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,
we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.
سلام
ادريس سماوي
Idris Samawi
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 15:34 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-23 17:15 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 17:56 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3584 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:34:54AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:02:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
>> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
>> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept.
>
> There is a hadith
>
> لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور
>
> Scheherazade is certainly not perfect -- and I doubt I'll ever use it
> personally -- but it's the best freely available option we have. If I
> understand the license correctly, we can rename it and turn it into a
> project. You, Otared, and others are expressing the need for a standard,
> default interface, so let's start with this and build on it. If there is
> another pure opentype font that is better, let me know and I'll test it.
>
> The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every
> Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform that
> all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or a
> fork of Scheherazade -- become available.
I already have a fork, I just don't want to encourage people to use such
aesthetically poor fonts, but as it seems to be the only solution at
hand right now (especially the Unicode covering), I think I'll try to
clean my font and publish it this week ISA.
>
> BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but
> it's there. Maybe you have an old version?
Sorry, yes it has one but is no better than not having one at all.
>> I was experimenting with
>> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
>> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
>> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
>> prone.
>
> I'm not sure if the VOLT sources are available, although I used a
> font-to-volt script that seems to have captured nearly everything. I
> guess you use FF but no matter: Just make a list of problems and the
> minimal -- as opposed to ideal -- set of recommended changes and one or
> both of us can work on this over the next few months.
FF does a great job here, it does read all lookups that I don't need
VOLT sources so much.
>> If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
>> the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
>> alternative by the end of this year.
>
> See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work on
> it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the
> following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to Lotus.
> Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to
> easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than
> Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So
> if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,
> we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.
My initial idea was to extend Scheherazade in a similar way, but I gave
up on this, there are so many similar glyphs in the Arabic Unicode block
that a simple ligature like بي means 28 (Baa' forms) * 10 (Yaa' forms):
280 glyphs for one ligatures, I don't think this is a wise idea.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 17:15 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 17:56 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2009-02-23 22:51 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2009-02-23 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:15:02 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
>> The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every
>> Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform
>> that
>> all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or
>> a
>> fork of Scheherazade -- become available.
>
> I already have a fork, I just don't want to encourage people to use such
> aesthetically poor fonts, but as it seems to be the only solution at
> hand right now (especially the Unicode covering), I think I'll try to
> clean my font and publish it this week ISA.
Ok, great!
>> BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but
>> it's there. Maybe you have an old version?
>
> Sorry, yes it has one but is no better than not having one at all.
It's ugly, no doubt, but we can easily replace it, and a couple of the
other specials as well.
<snip>
>> See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work
>> on
>> it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the
>> following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to
>> Lotus.
>> Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to
>> easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than
>> Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So
>> if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,
>> we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.
>
> My initial idea was to extend Scheherazade in a similar way, but I gave
> up on this, there are so many similar glyphs in the Arabic Unicode block
> that a simple ligature like بي means 28 (Baa' forms) * 10 (Yaa' forms):
> 280 glyphs for one ligatures, I don't think this is a wise idea.
Sure, but again
لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور
So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No
need for perfection at the outset ;-)
Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just get
the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.
سلام
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 17:56 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
@ 2009-02-23 22:51 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 23:19 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 746 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:56:07AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No
> need for perfection at the outset ;-)
>
> Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just get
> the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.
OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 22:51 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 23:19 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-24 20:41 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-23 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:51:13 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:56:07AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
>> So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No
>> need for perfection at the outset ;-)
>>
>> Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just
>> get
>> the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.
>
> OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
> Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
> as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
> marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip
Ok, thnx, Khaled. I looked at it: The الله is infinitely better, but does
not quite match the rest -- the shaddah is way too big for it (or maybe
the الله lig is too short). On closer inspection, I see that this is not
the full الله lig, but a mix of the no-vowel version with the default
shaddah. The actual FDF2 looks better. So there is still some OT work that
needs to be done.
I also have some poetry macros that might help, need to port them to the
new system...
Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not
greater than 12 point.
The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word
combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.
Next steps:
1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep
100% maintainance?
2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this into
a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can
leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know how
you would like to proceed.
سلام
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 23:19 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-24 20:41 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-25 2:30 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-24 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1967 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 04:19:13PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
>> OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
>> Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
>> as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
>> marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip
>
> Ok, thnx, Khaled. I looked at it: The الله is infinitely better, but does
> not quite match the rest -- the shaddah is way too big for it (or maybe
> the الله lig is too short). On closer inspection, I see that this is not
> the full الله lig, but a mix of the no-vowel version with the default
> shaddah. The actual FDF2 looks better. So there is still some OT work
> that needs to be done.
>
> I also have some poetry macros that might help, need to port them to the
> new system...
That'd be great!
>
> Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not
> greater than 12 point.
>
> The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word
> combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.
I can't think in any other word on top of my head, but I'm fine with
making it a 'dlig' instead, it isn't very common any way.
>
> Next steps:
>
> 1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep
> 100% maintainance?
>
> 2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this into
> a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can
> leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know
> how you would like to proceed.
Of course you are welcomed, actually I won't have much free time till
the end of march, it'd be nice if you can work on it.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-24 20:41 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-25 2:30 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-25 2:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:41:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:
>> Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not
>> greater than 12 point.
>>
>> The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word
>> combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.
>
> I can't think in any other word on top of my head,
فَلَّلَهُ "he notched or broke it in many places"
> but I'm fine with
> making it a 'dlig' instead, it isn't very common any way.
sure
>> Next steps:
>>
>> 1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep
>> 100% maintainance?
>>
>> 2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this
>> into
>> a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can
>> leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know
>> how you would like to proceed.
>
> Of course you are welcomed, actually I won't have much free time till
> the end of march, it'd be nice if you can work on it.
Ok, let's say whoever gets to it first in the next few days and weeks :-)
سلام
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-22 22:44 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-23 10:53 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 12:09 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
> display of it, some thing like:
>
> \mainlanguage[arabic]
> \startext
> أهلا بالعالم!
> \stoptext
to some extend that can already be done with dynamic features but it
needs more research etc
> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]
for that we have the fallbacks mechanism; of course one can mix any font
but even then it always demands tuning, i.e. foo and bar can look
completely weird when combined without relative scaling (which is what
the fallbacks do: thereone chooses one main font and overlays other
fonts properly scaled)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 10:53 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-23 12:09 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:17 ` Thomas A. Schmitz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 12:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 801 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:53:30AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]
>
> for that we have the fallbacks mechanism; of course one can mix any font
> but even then it always demands tuning, i.e. foo and bar can look
> completely weird when combined without relative scaling (which is what
> the fallbacks do: thereone chooses one main font and overlays other
> fonts properly scaled)
But I think fallbacks are very low level that users shouldn't worry
about in general, may be such command can be a higher level interface
for font fallbacks. For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
\setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
or so.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:09 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 12:17 ` Thomas A. Schmitz
2009-02-23 12:28 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 12:36 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Thomas A. Schmitz @ 2009-02-23 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>
> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>
> or so.
I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that
is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't
have to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute
size is not a viable alternative.
Thomas
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:17 ` Thomas A. Schmitz
@ 2009-02-23 12:28 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 16:56 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:36 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>
>> or so.
>
> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that is
> not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have to
> worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is not
> a viable alternative.
indeed.
btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using
the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface
\usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
\setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]
or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we
need to guard at least some minimal quality
a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:28 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-23 16:56 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 17:01 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-02-23 23:23 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1954 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>>
>>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>>
>>> or so.
>>
>> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that
>> is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have
>> to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is
>> not a viable alternative.
>
> indeed.
>
> btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using
> the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface
>
> \usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
> \setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]
>
> or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we
> need to guard at least some minimal quality
>
> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
desirable. Think of this sentence:
عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 16:56 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 17:01 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-02-23 17:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-02-23 17:49 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 23:23 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-02-23 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
I believe you should write
> عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.
then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font
(and/or font callbacks).
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 17:01 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2009-02-23 17:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-02-23 17:49 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-02-23 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> I believe you should write
>
>> عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.
>
> then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font
I meant the language switch of course, sorry.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 17:01 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-02-23 17:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2009-02-23 17:49 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 787 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 06:01:35PM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>
> I believe you should write
>
> > عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.
>
> then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font
> (and/or font callbacks).
Sure I can do, but I was talking about some kind of automatism, for
example I'm trying some books written in DocBook, and want ConTeXt to
automate the typesetting process as possible. It is also cumbersome to
markup every Arabic/English part of the text, especially for Arabic
technical documentation where Arabic and non Arabic text are mixed very
often.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 16:56 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 17:01 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2009-02-23 23:23 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-24 15:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>
>>>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>>>
>>>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>>>
>>>> or so.
>>> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that
>>> is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have
>>> to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is
>>> not a viable alternative.
>> indeed.
>>
>> btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using
>> the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface
>>
>> \usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
>> \setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]
>>
>> or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we
>> need to guard at least some minimal quality
>>
>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
>
> I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
> desirable. Think of this sentence:
>
> عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
>
> Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another
'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections
I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then
needs to handle all kind of exceptions too
proper markup is a good solution
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 23:23 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-24 15:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2009-02-24 16:03 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2009-02-24 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Hans Hagen
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:23:59 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
>> I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
>> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
>> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
>> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
>> desirable. Think of this sentence:
>> عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
>> Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
>> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
>> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
>> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
>> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
>
> Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another
> 'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections
>
> I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then
> needs to handle all kind of exceptions too
>
> proper markup is a good solution
Not sure I understand you, but could we do something like the following:
Along the lines of \quote, \quotation:
Latin text\paren{here is some arabic text\paren[somefallback]{here is some
latin} more arabic}.
so the fallback will be used when explicitly called. Put another way,
could we add a conditional parameter to the fallback macro so that those
chars are used only in situations when they are specifically called?
\paren[fallback=...]
\bracket[fallback=...]
\brace[fallback=...]
\anglebracket[fallback=...]
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-24 15:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
@ 2009-02-24 16:03 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-24 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Idris Samawi Hamid; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:23:59 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>>>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
>>> I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
>>> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
>>> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
>>> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
>>> desirable. Think of this sentence:
>>> عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
>>> Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
>>> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
>>> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
>>> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
>>> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
>>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
>>
>> Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another
>> 'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections
>>
>> I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then
>> needs to handle all kind of exceptions too
>>
>> proper markup is a good solution
>
> Not sure I understand you, but could we do something like the following:
> Along the lines of \quote, \quotation:
>
> Latin text\paren{here is some arabic text\paren[somefallback]{here is
> some latin} more arabic}.
>
> so the fallback will be used when explicitly called. Put another way,
> could we add a conditional parameter to the fallback macro so that those
> chars are used only in situations when they are specifically called?
>
> \paren[fallback=...]
> \bracket[fallback=...]
> \brace[fallback=...]
> \anglebracket[fallback=...]
sure, it makes sense to add that kind of structure
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:17 ` Thomas A. Schmitz
2009-02-23 12:28 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-23 12:36 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 761 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:17:42PM +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>
>> or so.
>
> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that is
> not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have to
> worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is not a
> viable alternative.
I think ConText defines footnote and other font sizes relative to body
font, no? I'm not defending my idea either, I'm OK with whatever being
better.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-22 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-02-22 23:35 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-22 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Otared,
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:05:01 -0700, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so
> through appropriate mechanisms.
sure, but it needs some thought. As I mentioned in my latest reply to
Khaled, we can start with Scheherazade as an initial benchmark and proceed
from there.
> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using
> Arabic alphabet.
The difference -- I think -- is that xetex uses the system libraries.
Uniscribe is not configurable, so you're stuck with however uniscribe
interprets the ot features.
<snip>
> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt % this does not work
Hmm, I wonder why...
> The ideal situation would be:
> • in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with
> certain standard features is set by default;
sure, I suggest Scheherazade
> • when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then
> certain features are set by default;
that needs some research, for reasons Hans has explained.
> • possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start]
> [...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages
> such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),
> could be imagined;
sure
> Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing the
> user to write
> \setupArabic[state=start]
> \setupHanzi[state=start]
> \starttext
> goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
> And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left, in
> the midst of some English text:
> \startArabic
> سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
> \stopArabic
>
> I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own
> environment and installing fonts, etc. But
> for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the intricacies.
For now the focus is getting OpenType and the mid-level interface solid,
then we can focus on the high-level interface as you have described. OTOH,
Getting Scheherazade (or some other mutually agreed-upon font) set up as
default with a high-level interface should not be that hard.
سلام
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
2009-02-22 21:03 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-22 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-02-22 23:35 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-02-22 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:05:01 -0700, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt % this does not work
The following works here:
% engine=luatex
\definefontfeature
[scheherazade-test]
[analyze=yes,mode=node,
language=dflt,script=arab,
ccmp=yes,
init=yes,medi=yes,fina=yes,
rlig=yes,
calt=yes,
salt=yes,
curs=yes,
mark=yes,
mkmk=yes]
\font \Scheherazademk = ScheherazadeRegOT*scheherazade-test at 28pt
\setcharactermirroring[1]
\noheaderandfooterlines
\Scheherazademk
\starttext
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stoptext
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-20 18:57 ` Hans Hagen
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2009-02-21 13:05 ` Otared Kavian
@ 2009-02-21 21:14 ` Otared Kavian
2009-02-23 10:42 ` Hans Hagen
3 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Otared Kavian @ 2009-02-21 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those
specialist typesetters who want particular features to be turned on,
to do so through appropriate mechanisms.
As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF
or other font specifications, I don't know which features are
essential for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any
language using Arabic alphabet.
While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = xecontext
\TeXXeTstate=1
% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\font\Faarsi="Scheherazade:script=arab" at 14pt
\Faarsi
% defining a font for Roman languages
\font\romfont="Times Roman" at 12pt
\def\rom#1{{\beginL\romfont #1\endL}}
\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }
\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%
it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv:
for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are
installed on his system before getting a result…
%%%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = mkiv
\setupdirections[bidi=global]
% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\definefontfeature
[CrypticFeatures]
[analyze=yes,
mode=node,
language=dflt,
script=arab,
aalt=yes,
init=yes,
medi=yes,
fina=yes,
isol=yes,
liga=yes,
mset=yes]
%\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt % this does not work
% after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
\font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt
% defining a font for Roman languages
\setupbodyfont[12pt]
\def\rom#1{{\start \textdir TLT #1 \stop}}
\pardir TRT \textdir TRT
\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}
\start
\Faarsi
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stop
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%
The ideal situation would be:
• in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with
certain standard features is set by default;
• when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then
certain features are set by default;
• possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start]
[...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages
such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),
could be imagined;
• for instance, as we have now in ConTeXt, when one has a document
written in English, then without even defining a font one can write
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
\stoptext
Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing
the user to write
\setupArabic[state=start]
\setupHanzi[state=start]
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left,
in the midst of some English text:
\startArabic
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stopArabic
and analogously this is in Hanzi
\startHanzi
大家你好
stopHanzi
\stoptext
I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own
environment and installing fonts, etc. But
for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the
intricacies.
With my best regards: OK
On 20 févr. 09, at 19:57, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all
>> features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one,
>> not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper
>> font
>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so
>> that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic
>> font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a
>> certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives
>> a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the
>> ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts
> (think of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if
> ms is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries
> support all features)
>
> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages
> and scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be
> needed i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used
> for latin it not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a
> matrix of features / scripts needed
>
> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>
> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision
> here as it will influence compatibility)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
> | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-21 21:14 ` Otared Kavian
@ 2009-02-23 10:42 ` Hans Hagen
2009-02-23 12:25 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
>
> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so
> through appropriate mechanisms.
>
> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using
> Arabic alphabet.
> While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
> %%%%%%%%%
well, it might be easy to understand given that default features are
enabled but on the other hand,. when you want to disable a feature you
need to know what is enabled so in practice you have the same problem
i remember a talk at bachotex about apps dealing with open type where
compatibility problems showed up when the machinery started to support
more features, or started to make relationships between features and
scripts
since tex is supposed to behave in a predictable way, any automatism
should be visible and basically be on user request so the only way to go
is by predefined (and agreed upon) features sets, possible different
defaults per script/language
> \everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }
not that user friendly, and it would break much other functionality in
context -)
> it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv:
> for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are
> installed on his system before getting a result…
that's why we need an inventory, else it will always be a gamble and
surprise what one will get ... (also feature creep is a problem ... i
really dislike all those documents with funny ancient ligatures that
just show up because they're enables, even if they make no sense any more)
> % defining a font for Arabic, Persian
> \definefontfeature
> [CrypticFeatures]
> [analyze=yes,
> mode=node,
> language=dflt,
> script=arab,
> aalt=yes,
> init=yes,
> medi=yes,
> fina=yes,
> isol=yes,
> liga=yes,
> mset=yes]
>
> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt % this does not work
> % after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
> \font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt
that depends on what Scheherazade supports
>mtxrun --script font --list --info --pattern=scheherazade
MtxRun | fontname: scheherazade
MtxRun | fullname: Scheherazade
MtxRun | filename: scheherazaderegot.ttf
MtxRun |
MtxRun | feature: calt, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: ccmp, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: curs, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: fina, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: init, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: mark, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: medi, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: mkmk, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: rlig, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
MtxRun | feature: salt, script: arab, language: kur snd urd dflt
so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not*
what the ms spec recommends for arabtype
you see the problem?
we need a database and even then agree upon the defaults; when we have
that we can default (per font/script/lang) to a featureset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 10:42 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-02-23 12:25 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:46 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:56 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1923 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:42:41AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Otared Kavian wrote:
>> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
>>
>> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with
>> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default
>> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular
>> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist
>> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so
>> through appropriate mechanisms.
>>
>> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration
>> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF
>> or other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential
>> for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using
>> Arabic alphabet.
>> While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
>> %%%%%%%%%
>
> well, it might be easy to understand given that default features are
> enabled but on the other hand,. when you want to disable a feature you
> need to know what is enabled so in practice you have the same problem
Yes, but the majority if people want need that, if I want to play with
OpenType features then I'm supposed to know what I'm doing, while most
people will be happy with the default features (given it is a reasonable
default of course.)
[...]
> so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not*
> what the ms spec recommends for arabtype
>
> you see the problem?
I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
would have used a stylistic set.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:25 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 12:46 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:56 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-02-23 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 811 bytes --]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 02:25:15PM +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> > so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not*
> > what the ms spec recommends for arabtype
> >
> > you see the problem?
>
> I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
> default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
> those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
> would have used a stylistic set.
I just checked arabtype font, and I don't see why one would suggest
turning 'calt' off by default, it doesn't make any sense to me; many
necessesary features (like rising the second tooth in words like بيت)
are 'calt' features.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
[-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default
2009-02-23 12:25 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-02-23 12:46 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-02-23 12:56 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-02-23 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
> default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
> those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
> would have used a stylistic set.
it's not arabtype that suggests it, thats the problem; open type fonts
*don't* have any information about what features should be on by
default; it's the renderers that kind of decide it and there is no
standard, so any renderer will follow its own rules
also, some features (like frac) are often implemented only partial and
as such can only be applied very selectively
so, the only way out is something:
defaults{'arabtype'] = {
arab = {
dflt = { calt=true, mkmk=true, ...},
},
}
a kind of database
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread