Making necessary OpenType features on by default

Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
rendering. 

I think some font features should be on by default, so that
\definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
(designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.

Microsoft's OpenType features list page
(http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
I tested).

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
> rendering. 
> 
> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
> 
> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
> I tested).

i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already 
features=yes|no)

even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts (think 
of verbatim) demands devation from defaults

now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a 
detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if ms 
is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries support 
all features)

a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages and 
scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be needed 
i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used for latin it 
not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a matrix of features / 
scripts needed

if it was trivial i'd already done it -)

(implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision 
here as it will influence compatibility)

Hans


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font

btw, this is why we already have arabic as featureset defined

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:22 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>> rendering.  I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.

Hmm, not sure if this is a good idea, see below.

>>  Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>> I tested).

> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already  
> features=yes|no)

Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic

instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end user  
interface we can have keys like

featureset=ms_arabic

But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For  
example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in  
Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is  
not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar. Also, what about Arabic  
fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?

We've still got lots to do before settling on a very high-end interface so  
there is time to think about this some more...

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 07:57:22PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>> rendering. 
>>
>> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>>
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already  
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts (think  
> of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a  
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if ms  
> is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries support  
> all features)

I didn't find any other sources, and this seem to be the only published
source of such information.

> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages and  
> scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be needed  
> i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used for latin it  
> not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a matrix of features /  
> scripts needed

I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
that).

> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)

I know :) just my two cents.

> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision  
> here as it will influence compatibility)

I see.

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 07:58:11PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>
> btw, this is why we already have arabic as featureset defined

I wasn't aware of that, I think having a set of predefined features
would be perfectly OK, just if one can reuse it: some thing like
\definefontfeature[include=arabic], may be some thing like that is
already implemented?

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 12:31:49PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:22 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all features
>>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one, not
>>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper font
>>> rendering.  I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a certain
>>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>
> Hmm, not sure if this is a good idea, see below.
>
>>>  Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the ones
>>> I tested).
>
>> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already  
>> features=yes|no)
>
> Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic
>
> instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end 
> user interface we can have keys like
>
> featureset=ms_arabic

I think the 'ms' part is't really needed, we can just call it"arabic",
or are we going to have more Arabic feature sets?

> But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For  
> example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in  
> Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is  
> not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar.

That is beyond OpenType support, since Traditional Arabic is essentially
broken at many levels, even when Uniscribe is used (vowel marks break
lam-alef ligatures for example), Ms Arabic fonts are special case since
they were developed long ago before OpenType and aren't the best
examples.

> Also, what about Arabic  
> fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?

AFAIK, Microsoft's Uniscribe is the reference OpenType implementation,
and I assume that Apple's OpenType implementation follows its
recommendations (I can't test that).

>
> We've still got lots to do before settling on a very high-end interface 
> so there is time to think about this some more...

Of course, we aren't in hurry.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:02:58 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

>>>>  Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>>>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a  
>>>> "UI
>>>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>>>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the  
>>>> ones
>>>> I tested).
>>
>>> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already
>>> features=yes|no)
>>
>> Maybe we can have a features=ms_arabic
>>
>> instead of defaulting to MS' recommendation. So in the final high-end
>> user interface we can have keys like
>>
>> featureset=ms_arabic
>
> I think the 'ms' part is't really needed, we can just call it"arabic",
> or are we going to have more Arabic feature sets?

We are almost certainly going to have more :-)

>> But I agree with Hans that this is a matter that needs more thought. For
>> example, Traditional Arabic mixes OpenType and older M$ specs in
>> Uniscribe, so just plugging in the default features that M$ suggests is
>> not sufficient for, eg, vowel function in Tr Ar.
>
> That is beyond OpenType support, since Traditional Arabic is essentially
> broken at many levels, even when Uniscribe is used (vowel marks break
> lam-alef ligatures for example), Ms Arabic fonts are special case since
> they were developed long ago before OpenType and aren't the best
> examples.

OTOH there are a lot of arabic fonts like this around that we want to  
support as well if we can... We a font categorization scheme to fit the  
most used fonts in the this regard.

>> Also, what about Arabic
>> fonts on the mac, so they follow the same specs as M$?
>
> AFAIK, Microsoft's Uniscribe is the reference OpenType implementation,
> and I assume that Apple's OpenType implementation follows its
> recommendations (I can't test that).

This is something we should investigate... uniscribe is quirky in a few  
areas -- it does extra spell-checking beyond what Arabic actually needs,  
for example. That's one reason I'm not comfortable with using it as a  
default standard.

Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic fonts?  
Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of what's  
available, checking for available OT features, etc.

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
> that).
> 
>> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
> 
> I know :) just my two cents.

how about making a wiki page where we collect fontnames  + assumed 
default features (+ test if possible); the problem is that fonts 
themselves don't have that info

it's no problem to have a database in mkiv that uses this info so that 
at some point we can default to a feature set based on font name

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 07:58:11PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> I think some font features should be on by default, so that
>>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic font
>> btw, this is why we already have arabic as featureset defined
> 
> I wasn't aware of that, I think having a set of predefined features
> would be perfectly OK, just if one can reuse it: some thing like
> \definefontfeature[include=arabic], may be some thing like that is
> already implemented?

indeed, for instance there is an arabic predefined (not sure if it's ok) 
  which you can extend if needed:

\definefontfeature[myarabic][arabic][rlig=yes]

in typescripts and font definitions you can just use 'myarabic'

\definedfont[arabtype*myarabic]

\definetypeface.........[features=arabic]

etc etc

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:

> Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic 
> fonts? Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of 
> what's available, checking for available OT features, etc.

also, it would be nice to have some quality otf arabic fonts in tex live

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:10:52 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
>
>> Khaled: Have you considered making an inventory of available Arabic  
>> fonts? Or does one already exist? We could put together a table of  
>> what's available, checking for available OT features, etc.
>
> also, it would be nice to have some quality otf arabic fonts in tex live

Why not just include the SIL arabic fonts?

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=OFL-FAQ_web

===============
1.3  Can I make the fonts available to others from my web site?
Yes, as long as you meet the conditions of the license (do not sell by  
itself, include the necessary files, rename Modified Versions, do not  
abuse the Author(s)' name(s) and do not sublicense).

1.4  Can the fonts be included with Free/Libre and Open Source Software  
collections such as GNU/Linux and BSD distributions?
Yes! Fonts licensed under the OFL can be freely aggregated with software  
under FLOSS (Free/Libre and Open Source Software) licenses. Since fonts  
are much more useful aggregated to than merged with existing software,  
possible incompatibility with existing software licenses is not a problem.  
You can also repackage the fonts and the accompanying components in a .rpm  
or .deb package and include them in distro CD/DVDs and online repositories.
===============

Seems similar enough to Texie licences for inclusion.

[cc'ing karl]

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:39:23 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default,

Hmm, I think this page is more relevant for what you have in mine:

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/features.htm

:-)

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:07:08PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> I think we can make default features per script (HarfBuzz seems to do
>> that).
>>
>>> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>>
>> I know :) just my two cents.
>
> how about making a wiki page where we collect fontnames  + assumed  
> default features (+ test if possible); the problem is that fonts  
> themselves don't have that info
>
> it's no problem to have a database in mkiv that uses this info so that  
> at some point we can default to a feature set based on font name

I'll try to do that, though I'm pretty sure that the assumed default
features will be what Microsoft recommends, but it is worth more
investigation.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:39:23 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default,
> 
> Hmm, I think this page is more relevant for what you have in mine:
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/features.htm
> 
> :-)

watch the "The standard order for applying Arabic features encoded in 
OpenType fonts" ... an earlier mkiv otf handler did this but then we 
found out that it violates the otf 'any order possible' rule so now we 
do just the order as we encounter it (and even then it took us a while 
to figure out where/how to avoid interferences); so ... it's up to the 
font designer (or technician)

now, having init, medi, fina, isol, rlig enabled might be the default, 
but for instance arabtype output looks much better when instead of rlig 
we use calt/clig etc so, in that case the defaults would bot be the best 
choice; again an argument for a database approach

there are even fonts out there that have the right gsub/gpos info but 
lack the feature being listed in the script/lang dictionary which is 
complicating live even more; maybe we should assume that the renderers 
of ms and adobe have some additional built in heuristics of using 
specific fonts

Hans



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,

If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with  
Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default  
settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular  
fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those  
specialist typesetters who want particular features to be turned on,  
to do so through appropriate mechanisms.

As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration  
of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF  
or other font specifications, I don't know which features are  
essential for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any  
language using Arabic alphabet.
While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = xecontext

\TeXXeTstate=1

% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\font\Faarsi="Scheherazade:script=arab" at 14pt
\Faarsi

% defining a font for Roman languages
\font\romfont="Times Roman" at 12pt
\def\rom#1{{\beginL\romfont #1\endL}}

\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }

\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}

  سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%

it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv:  
for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are  
installed on his system before getting a result…
%%%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = mkiv

\setupdirections[bidi=global]

% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\definefontfeature
   [CrypticFeatures]
   [analyze=yes,
   mode=node,
   language=dflt,
   script=arab,
   aalt=yes,
   init=yes,
   medi=yes,
   fina=yes,
   isol=yes,
   liga=yes,
   mset=yes]

%\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt  % this does not work
% after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
\font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt

% defining a font for Roman languages
\setupbodyfont[12pt]
\def\rom#1{{\start \textdir TLT #1 \stop}}

\pardir TRT \textdir TRT

\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}

\start
\Faarsi
  سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stop
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%

The ideal situation would be:
• in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with  
certain standard features is set by default;

• when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then  
certain features are set by default;

• possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start] 
[...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages  
such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),  
could be imagined;

• for instance, as we have now in ConTeXt, when one has a document  
written in English, then without even defining a font one can write
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
\stoptext

Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing  
the user to write
\setupArabic[state=start]
\setupHanzi[state=start]
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left,  
in the midst of some English text:
\startArabic
  سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stopArabic
and analogously this is in Hanzi
\startHanzi
大家你好
stopHanzi
\stoptext

I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own  
environment and installing fonts, etc. But
for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the  
intricacies.

With my best regards: OK

On 20 févr. 09, at 19:57, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all  
>> features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one,  
>> not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper  
>> font
>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so  
>> that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic  
>> font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a  
>> certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives  
>> a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the  
>> ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already  
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts  
> (think of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a  
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if  
> ms is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries  
> support all features)
>
> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages  
> and scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be  
> needed i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used  
> for latin it not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a  
> matrix of features / scripts needed
>
> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>
> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision  
> here as it will influence compatibility)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Ilda Khaki]

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In fact there are some Persian/Arabic fonts in TL08 and there is no need to
include them. They are a part of xepersian package. I think they should be
at fonts/truetype/xepersian

These fonts include SIL's font in addition to farsiweb fonts.

Looking at CTAN, it seems that the author of xepersian is not going to
include these fonts in his next release.

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,

If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with  
Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default  
settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular  
fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those  
specialist typesetters who want particular features to be turned on,  
to do so through appropriate mechanisms.

As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration  
of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF  
or other font specifications, I don't know which features are  
essential for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any  
language using Arabic alphabet.
While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = xecontext

\TeXXeTstate=1

% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\font\Faarsi="Scheherazade:script=arab" at 14pt
\Faarsi

% defining a font for Roman languages
\font\romfont="Times Roman" at 12pt
\def\rom#1{{\beginL\romfont #1\endL}}

\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }

\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}

سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%

it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv:  
for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are  
installed on his system before getting a result…
%%%%%%%%%%%
%!TEX TS-program = mkiv

\setupdirections[bidi=global]

% defining a font for Arabic, Persian
\definefontfeature
  [CrypticFeatures]
  [analyze=yes,
  mode=node,
  language=dflt,
  script=arab,
  aalt=yes,
  init=yes,
  medi=yes,
  fina=yes,
  isol=yes,
  liga=yes,
  mset=yes]

%\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt  % this does not work
% after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
\font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt

% defining a font for Roman languages
\setupbodyfont[12pt]
\def\rom#1{{\start \textdir TLT #1 \stop}}

\pardir TRT \textdir TRT

\starttext
\rom{goedemorgen Hans}

\start
\Faarsi
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stop
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%

The ideal situation would be:
• in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with  
certain standard features is set by default;

• when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then  
certain features are set by default;

• possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start] 
[...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages  
such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),  
could be imagined;

• for instance, as we have now in ConTeXt, when one has a document  
written in English, then without even defining a font one can write
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
\stoptext

Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing  
the user to write
\setupArabic[state=start]
\setupHanzi[state=start]
\starttext
goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left,  
in the midst of some English text:
\startArabic
سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
\stopArabic
and analogously this is in Hanzi
\startHanzi
大家你好
stopHanzi
\stoptext

I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own  
environment and installing fonts, etc. But
for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the  
intricacies.

With my best regards: OK

On 20 févr. 09, at 19:57, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> Currently, when defining a font feature one has to enable all  
>> features
>> by hand which is IMHO not very user friendly as it implies prior
>> knowledge about OpenType font features and the meaning of each one,  
>> not
>> every Arabic user, for example, knows what does 'init', 'medi, etc.
>> ligatures mean yet to know that he must enable them to get proper  
>> font
>> rendering. I think some font features should be on by default, so  
>> that
>> \definefontfeature[script=arabic] should be enough to get an Arabic  
>> font
>> rendered correctly with the default features as its designer intended
>> (designers assume that certain will be on while other are off by
>> default, like liga vs. dlig), and if some one wants to disable a  
>> certain
>> default feature he can turn it off, not the reverse.
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives  
>> a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default, I
>> think those are what most OpenType enable by default (at least the  
>> ones
>> I tested).
>
> i've been thinking of a features=default option (as there is already  
> features=yes|no)
>
> even then it can never be fully automatic as some usage of fonts  
> (think of verbatim) demands devation from defaults
>
> now, if we implement a default list then we first need to make a  
> detailed list of what the supposed defaults are (and i'm not sure if  
> ms is the only resource for that; after all, not all machineries  
> support all features)
>
> a related issue is that fonts can be used for different languages  
> and scripts and therefore a more dynamic feature switching might be  
> needed i.e. arabic might need init, but when the same font is used  
> for latin it not handy to have it enabled, so there might be a  
> matrix of features / scripts needed
>
> if it was trivial i'd already done it -)
>
> (implementing is trivial but i don't want to make the wrong decision  
> here as it will influence compatibility)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                         Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>             Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>    tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                            | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Karl Berry]

    Why not just include the SIL arabic fonts?

The OFL is fine for a license.  TL already has several other OFL'd fonts.

If someone puts the fonts on CTAN, I don't mind incorporating them in TL. 
(As a practical matter, it is a lot of extra work for me to work with any
package that is not on CTAN.  And besides, we want CTAN to be
"comprehensive".)

It would also be nice to have supporting TeXish files, but if the bare
otf's/ttf's/whatever SIL gives are useful with LuaTeX/ConTeXt, I don't
insist.
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1302 bytes --]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 03:46:50PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:39:23 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default,
>
> Hmm, I think this page is more relevant for what you have in mine:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/features.htm

Though it doesn't suggest what should be on/off by default, I think it
is a good starting point. From the features listed there, I think only
'dlig' and 'cswh' don't make much sense to be on by default, so I think
the predefined 'arabic' font features should be changed to disable 'dlig'
and enable 'calt' and 'mset' instead, as I think both are needed for
Arabic fonts (especially 'calt' which is heavily used in Nasta'liq
fonts). So, I think it should be:

\definefontfeature
  [arabic]
  [mode=node,language=dflt,script=arab,
   init=yes,medi=yes,fina=yes,isol=yes,
   liga=yes,rlig=yes,clig=yes,calt=yes,
   mark=yes,mkmk=yes,kern=yes,curs=yes,
   mset=yes]

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2011 bytes --]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:41:48PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:39:23 -0700, Khaled Hosny 
>> <khaledhosny@eglug.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Microsoft's OpenType features list page
>>> (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm) gives a "UI
>>> suggestion" for each feature noting if it should be on by default,
>>
>> Hmm, I think this page is more relevant for what you have in mine:
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/features.htm
>>
>> :-)
>
> watch the "The standard order for applying Arabic features encoded in  
> OpenType fonts" ... an earlier mkiv otf handler did this but then we  
> found out that it violates the otf 'any order possible' rule so now we  
> do just the order as we encounter it (and even then it took us a while  
> to figure out where/how to avoid interferences); so ... it's up to the  
> font designer (or technician)

IIRC, the 'ccmp' should be applied before any other lookup, the rest are
applied as they are ordered in the font, at least this makes sense more.

> now, having init, medi, fina, isol, rlig enabled might be the default,  
> but for instance arabtype output looks much better when instead of rlig  
> we use calt/clig etc so, in that case the defaults would bot be the best  
> choice; again an argument for a database approach

Arabic Typesetting is a quit a special case font, though I believe that
'calt' and 'clig' should be on by default for any font.

> there are even fonts out there that have the right gsub/gpos info but  
> lack the feature being listed in the script/lang dictionary which is  
> complicating live even more; maybe we should assume that the renderers  
> of ms and adobe have some additional built in heuristics of using  
> specific fonts

Any links to such fonts? Looks interesting.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1502 bytes --]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 02:05:01PM +0100, Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
>
> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with  
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default  
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular  
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist 
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so 
> through appropriate mechanisms.
>
> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration  
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or 
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for 
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using 
> Arabic alphabet.

I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
display of it, some thing like:

\mainlanguage[arabic]
\startext
أهلا بالعالم!
\stoptext

Should be all what I user need to get an Arabic page.
I can even imaging a script analyzer in MkIV that classifies input text
and applies fonts/font features per script (Pango kinda does this), with
may be some high level commands like:

\setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]

Which specifies the default font per script.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:03:56 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
> display of it, some thing like:
>
> \mainlanguage[arabic]
> \startext
> أهلا بالعالم!
> \stoptext

Fonts will always be complicated... for what you are describing we need to  
start with a default Arabic-script font for TeX, like LM for Latin. My  
suggestion is to make Scheherazade that font, since it is free,  
distributable, and supports nearly all Arabic script languages. We could  
make two settings:

one for Scheherazade as the LM fallback for the needed Ar-script ranges  
for unicode,

another for Scheherazade as the main font, with Termes as Latin fallback.  
That will give us a benchmark from which to proceed with other fonts. If I  
get time I'll try to build typescripts etc for this scenario, or Khaled or  
someone else can take on this task, and I'll review it.

Even Scheherazade has lots of options, and it will take some research to  
get the "ideal" default even here.

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi Otared,

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:05:01 -0700, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:

> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with  
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default  
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular  
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist  
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so  
> through appropriate mechanisms.

sure, but it needs some thought. As I mentioned in my latest reply to  
Khaled, we can start with Scheherazade as an initial benchmark and proceed  
 from there.

> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration  
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or  
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for  
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using  
> Arabic alphabet.

The difference -- I think -- is that xetex uses the system libraries.  
Uniscribe is not configurable, so you're stuck with however uniscribe  
interprets the ot features.

<snip>

> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt  % this does not work

Hmm, I wonder why...


> The ideal situation would be:
> • in a document, when one sets a language then a certain font, with  
> certain standard features is set by default;

sure, I suggest Scheherazade

> • when an adapted font for that language is defined by the user, then  
> certain features are set by default;

that needs some research, for reasons Hans has explained.

> • possibly a command like \setupArabic[state=start] 
> [...=...,features=...] (and the analogous settings for other languages  
> such as \setupHanzi[state=start][...=...,features=...], and alike),  
> could be imagined;

sure

> Therefore, in the same spirit one should have some default allowing the  
> user to write
> \setupArabic[state=start]
> \setupHanzi[state=start]
> \starttext
> goedmorgen Hans! This is some maths formula: $a^2+b^2 = c^2$.
> And this is some Arabic text written and typeset from right to left, in  
> the midst of some English text:
> \startArabic
>   سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس
> \stopArabic
>
> I understand that this can be done by each user upon defining his own  
> environment and installing fonts, etc. But
> for the non specialist it is not that easy to understand the intricacies.

For now the focus is getting OpenType and the mid-level interface solid,  
then we can focus on the high-level interface as you have described. OTOH,  
Getting Scheherazade (or some other mutually agreed-upon font) set up as  
default with a high-level interface should not be that hard.

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:54:51 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

>>> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/features.htm
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> watch the "The standard order for applying Arabic features encoded in
>> OpenType fonts" ... an earlier mkiv otf handler did this but then we
>> found out that it violates the otf 'any order possible' rule so now we
>> do just the order as we encounter it (and even then it took us a while
>> to figure out where/how to avoid interferences); so ... it's up to the
>> font designer (or technician)
>
> IIRC, the 'ccmp' should be applied before any other lookup, the rest are
> applied as they are ordered in the font, at least this makes sense more.

It is not the order of the features, but the order of the lookups that  
really counts here. So, more precisely, the lookups in ccmp should be  
defined in the font before all other lookups.

See also

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/shaping.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otfntdev/arabicot/default.htm

>> now, having init, medi, fina, isol, rlig enabled might be the default,
>> but for instance arabtype output looks much better when instead of rlig
>> we use calt/clig etc so, in that case the defaults would bot be the best
>> choice; again an argument for a database approach
>
> Arabic Typesetting is a quit a special case font, though I believe that
> 'calt' and 'clig' should be on by default for any font.

That's just it, there are so many exceptional cases it's not trivial to  
define a rule. Again, Scheherazade seems appropriate as a place to  
start... I will try to find some time in the next month to work on this,  
or someone can start and Hans and I can complete the module.

>> there are even fonts out there that have the right gsub/gpos info but
>> lack the feature being listed in the script/lang dictionary which is
>> complicating live even more; maybe we should assume that the renderers
>> of ms and adobe have some additional built in heuristics of using
>> specific fonts
>
> Any links to such fonts? Looks interesting.

Hans may be referring to hybrids like Traditional Arabic....

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi,

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:05:01 -0700, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:

> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt  % this does not work

The following works here:

% engine=luatex

\definefontfeature
   [scheherazade-test]
   [analyze=yes,mode=node,  	
    language=dflt,script=arab, 	
    ccmp=yes,
    init=yes,medi=yes,fina=yes,
    rlig=yes,
    calt=yes,
    salt=yes,
    curs=yes,
    mark=yes,
    mkmk=yes]

\font \Scheherazademk  = ScheherazadeRegOT*scheherazade-test    at 28pt
\setcharactermirroring[1]

\noheaderandfooterlines

\Scheherazademk

\starttext

سلام خالد، درود بر ادریس

\stoptext

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
> 
> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with 
> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default 
> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular 
> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist 
> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so 
> through appropriate mechanisms.
> 
> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration 
> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF or 
> other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential for 
> writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using 
> Arabic alphabet.
> While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
> %%%%%%%%%

well, it might be easy to understand given that default features are 
enabled but on the other hand,. when you want to disable a feature you 
need to know what is enabled so in practice you have the same problem

i remember a talk at bachotex about apps dealing with open type where 
compatibility problems showed up when the machinery started to support 
more features, or started to make relationships between features and 
scripts

since tex is supposed to behave in a predictable way, any automatism 
should be visible and basically be on user request so the only way to go 
is by predefined (and agreed upon) features sets, possible different 
defaults per script/language

> \everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }

not that user friendly, and it would break much other functionality in 
context -)

> it is not so easy to figure out how to typeset the same thing in mkiv: 
> for instance the non specialist has to try several fonts which are 
> installed on his system before getting a result…

that's why we need an inventory, else it will always be a gamble and 
surprise what one will get ... (also feature creep is a problem ... i 
really dislike all those documents with funny ancient ligatures that 
just show up because they're enables, even if they make no sense any more)

> % defining a font for Arabic, Persian
> \definefontfeature
>  [CrypticFeatures]
>  [analyze=yes,
>  mode=node,
>  language=dflt,
>  script=arab,
>  aalt=yes,
>  init=yes,
>  medi=yes,
>  fina=yes,
>  isol=yes,
>  liga=yes,
>  mset=yes]
> 
> %\font\Faarsi=Scheherazade*CrypticFeatures at 14pt  % this does not work
> % after trying a few other fonts one finds that the following works:
> \font\Faarsi=arabtype*CrypticFeatures at 14pt

that depends on what Scheherazade supports

 >mtxrun --script font --list --info --pattern=scheherazade 

MtxRun | fontname: scheherazade 

MtxRun | fullname: Scheherazade 

MtxRun | filename: scheherazaderegot.ttf 

MtxRun | 

MtxRun | feature: calt, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: ccmp, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: curs, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: fina, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: init, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: mark, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: medi, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: mkmk, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: rlig, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 

MtxRun | feature: salt, script: arab, language: kur  snd  urd  dflt 


so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not* 
what the ms spec recommends for arabtype

you see the problem?

we need a database and even then agree upon the defaults; when we have 
that we can default (per font/script/lang) to a featureset

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
> display of it, some thing like:
> 
> \mainlanguage[arabic]
> \startext
> أهلا بالعالم!
> \stoptext

to some extend that can already be done with dynamic features but it 
needs more research etc

> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]

for that we have the fallbacks mechanism; of course one can mix any font 
but even then it always demands tuning, i.e. foo and bar can look 
completely weird when combined without relative scaling (which is what 
the fallbacks do: thereone chooses one main font and overlays other 
fonts properly scaled)

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Ilda Khaki wrote:
> In fact there are some Persian/Arabic fonts in TL08 and there is no need to
> include them. They are a part of xepersian package. I think they should be
> at fonts/truetype/xepersian
> 
> These fonts include SIL's font in addition to farsiweb fonts.
> 
> Looking at CTAN, it seems that the author of xepersian is not going to
> include these fonts in his next release.

so, arabic user on this list should join forces and make an arabic font 
package for ctan then (maybe even do a few more sil fonts, like for 
latin and hebrew and i think that there's also a greek one)

Hans


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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2027 bytes --]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 03:44:13PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:03:56 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
> wrote:
>
>> I totally agree with you, more ever I hop that at some point in the
>> future, just selecting certain language will be enough to get proper
>> display of it, some thing like:
>>
>> \mainlanguage[arabic]
>> \startext
>> أهلا بالعالم!
>> \stoptext
>
> Fonts will always be complicated... for what you are describing we need 
> to start with a default Arabic-script font for TeX, like LM for Latin. My 
> suggestion is to make Scheherazade that font, since it is free,  
> distributable, and supports nearly all Arabic script languages. We could  
> make two settings:
>
> one for Scheherazade as the LM fallback for the needed Ar-script ranges  
> for unicode,
>
> another for Scheherazade as the main font, with Termes as Latin fallback. 
> That will give us a benchmark from which to proceed with other fonts. If 
> I get time I'll try to build typescripts etc for this scenario, or Khaled 
> or someone else can take on this task, and I'll review it.
>
> Even Scheherazade has lots of options, and it will take some research to  
> get the "ideal" default even here.

I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept. I was experimenting with
a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
prone.

If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
alternative by the end of this year.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:53:30AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,latin=bar]
>
> for that we have the fallbacks mechanism; of course one can mix any font  
> but even then it always demands tuning, i.e. foo and bar can look  
> completely weird when combined without relative scaling (which is what  
> the fallbacks do: thereone chooses one main font and overlays other  
> fonts properly scaled)

But I think fallbacks are very low level that users shouldn't worry
about in general, may be such command can be a higher level interface
for font fallbacks. For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:

\setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]

or so.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>
> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>
> or so.

I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that  
is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't  
have to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute  
size is not a viable alternative.

Thomas
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1923 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:42:41AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Otared Kavian wrote:
>> Hi Hans, Khaled, and Idris,
>>
>> If a humble opinion from an ordinary user may be issued, I agree with  
>> Khaled that it would be extremely useful to have some basic default  
>> settings for Arabic fonts, and even more generally for any particular  
>> fonts used for other languages. This would not prevent those specialist 
>> typesetters who want particular features to be turned on, to do so  
>> through appropriate mechanisms.
>>
>> As a basic user I am frustrated when using mkiv, that most declaration  
>> of features are completely cryptic, and not being a specialist of OTF 
>> or other font specifications, I don't know which features are essential 
>> for writing and typesetting an article in Persian or any language using 
>> Arabic alphabet.
>> While the following is quite easy to understand and to use in XeConTeXt
>> %%%%%%%%%
>
> well, it might be easy to understand given that default features are  
> enabled but on the other hand,. when you want to disable a feature you  
> need to know what is enabled so in practice you have the same problem

Yes, but the majority if people want need that, if I want to play with
OpenType features then I'm supposed to know what I'm doing, while most
people will be happy with the default features (given it is a reasonable
default of course.)

[...]

> so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not*  
> what the ms spec recommends for arabtype
>
> you see the problem?

I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
would have used a stylistic set.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> 
> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> 
>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>
>> or so.
> 
> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that is 
> not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have to 
> worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is not 
> a viable alternative.

indeed.

btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using 
the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface

\usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
\setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]

or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we 
need to guard at least some minimal quality

a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go

Hans


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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:17:42PM +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>
>> or so.
>
> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that is 
> not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have to 
> worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is not a 
> viable alternative.

I think ConText defines footnote and other font sizes relative to body
font, no? I'm not defending my idea either, I'm OK with whatever being
better.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 811 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 02:25:15PM +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> > so, it seems to depend on calt but turning on calt by default is *not*  
> > what the ms spec recommends for arabtype
> >
> > you see the problem?
> 
> I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
> default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
> those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
> would have used a stylistic set.

I just checked arabtype font, and I don't see why one would suggest
turning 'calt' off by default, it doesn't make any sense to me; many
necessesary features (like rising the second tooth in words like بيت)
are 'calt' features.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> I think is is arabtype's problem if they suggest turning calt off by
> default, if I've contextual alternatives in my font this means I think
> those alternatives are necessary to render text correctly, otherwise I
> would have used a stylistic set.

it's not arabtype that suggests it, thats the problem; open type fonts 
*don't* have any information about what features should be on by 
default; it's the renderers that kind of decide it and there is no 
standard, so any renderer will follow its own rules

also, some features (like frac) are often implemented only partial and 
as such can only be applied very selectively

so, the only way out is something:

defaults{'arabtype'] = {
   arab = {
     dflt = { calt=true, mkmk=true, ...},
   },
}

a kind of database

Hans

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:

> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept. I was experimenting with
> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
> prone.

so, in addition to collecting 'default features per font' we also need 
to collect info about quality and missing or broken things

Hans

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:02:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept.

There is a hadith

لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور

Scheherazade is certainly not perfect -- and I doubt I'll ever use it  
personally -- but it's the best freely available option we have. If I  
understand the license correctly, we can rename it and turn it into a  
project. You, Otared, and others are expressing the need for a standard,  
default interface, so let's start with this and build on it. If there is  
another pure opentype font that is better, let me know and I'll test it.

The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every  
Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform that  
all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or a  
fork of Scheherazade -- become available.

BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but it's  
there. Maybe you have an old version?

> I was experimenting with
> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
> prone.

I'm not sure if the VOLT sources are available, although I used a  
font-to-volt script that seems to have captured nearly everything. I guess  
you use FF but no matter: Just make a list of problems and the minimal --  
as opposed to ideal -- set of recommended changes and one or both of us  
can work on this over the next few months.

I would also look at Lotus Light -- a simple/simplistic yet probably the  
most commonly used commercial traditional font in the Arabic and Farsi  
worlds -- as an ideal default font for general usage. Khaled, note that,  
although Lotus also has a few contextual forms, in practice it is  
generally used by publishers without them.

BTW: The above is solely for the purposes that Khaled and Otared are  
pointing out, viz, a default Very High Level Interface for default Arabic  
script, for use by the average user for general documents, and with  
little-to-no tweaking. Otherwise, Scheherazade is virtually useless for my  
own projects.

> If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
> the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
> alternative by the end of this year.

See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work on  
it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the  
following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to Lotus.  
Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to  
easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than  
Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So  
if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,  
we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.

سلام
ادريس سماوي
Idris Samawi

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1954 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>>
>>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>>
>>> or so.
>>
>> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that 
>> is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have 
>> to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is 
>> not a viable alternative.
>
> indeed.
>
> btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using  
> the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface
>
> \usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
> \setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]
>
> or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we  
> need to guard at least some minimal quality
>
> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go

I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
desirable. Think of this sentence:

عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.

Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Taco Hoekwater]

I believe you should write

> عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.

then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font
(and/or font callbacks).

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Taco Hoekwater]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> I believe you should write
> 
>> عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.
> 
> then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font

I meant the language switch of course, sorry.


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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3584 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:34:54AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:02:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not very fond if Scheherazade as it has many wrong glyphs (most of
>> the Quranic glyphs are completely wrong) and it doesn't even have an الله
>> ligature, which most Arabic users won't accept.
>
> There is a hadith
>
> لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور
>
> Scheherazade is certainly not perfect -- and I doubt I'll ever use it  
> personally -- but it's the best freely available option we have. If I  
> understand the license correctly, we can rename it and turn it into a  
> project. You, Otared, and others are expressing the need for a standard,  
> default interface, so let's start with this and build on it. If there is  
> another pure opentype font that is better, let me know and I'll test it.
>
> The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every  
> Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform that 
> all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or a 
> fork of Scheherazade -- become available.

I already have a fork, I just don't want to encourage people to use such
aesthetically poor fonts, but as it seems to be the only solution at
hand right now (especially the Unicode covering), I think I'll try to
clean my font and publish it this week ISA.

>
> BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but 
> it's there. Maybe you have an old version?

Sorry, yes it has one but is no better than not having one at all.

>> I was experimenting with
>> a modified version that fixes those issues, but I gave up since the font
>> lacks any contextual forms but the basic four ones and extending the
>> font the way it is designed proved to be cumbersome and very error
>> prone.
>
> I'm not sure if the VOLT sources are available, although I used a  
> font-to-volt script that seems to have captured nearly everything. I 
> guess you use FF but no matter: Just make a list of problems and the 
> minimal -- as opposed to ideal -- set of recommended changes and one or 
> both of us can work on this over the next few months.

FF does a great job here, it does read all lookups that I don't need
VOLT sources so much.

>> If it is needed, I can clean the font and provide it to be included in
>> the minimal distribution temporarily, as I hope that we'll have a viable
>> alternative by the end of this year.
>
> See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work on 
> it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the  
> following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to Lotus. 
> Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to  
> easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than  
> Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So  
> if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,  
> we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.

My initial idea was to extend Scheherazade in a similar way, but I gave
up on this, there are so many similar glyphs in the Arabic Unicode block
that a simple ligature like بي means 28 (Baa' forms) * 10 (Yaa' forms):
280 glyphs for one ligatures, I don't think this is a wise idea.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 06:01:35PM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
> I believe you should write
> 
> > عربي 1234 عربي ({\language[en] English 1234 English (English) English}) عربي.
> 
> then the font switch can be made to do something sensible with the font
> (and/or font callbacks).

Sure I can do, but I was talking about some kind of automatism, for
example I'm trying some books written in DocBook, and want ConTeXt to
automate the typesetting process as possible. It is also cumbersome to
markup every Arabic/English part of the text, especially for Arabic
technical documentation where Arabic and non Arabic text are mixed very
often.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:15:02 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

>> The key point is that SIL has taken care to support nearly every
>> Arabic-script language, not just Arabic, so this gives us a platform  
>> that
>> all Arabic-script users can use by default until other free fonts -- or  
>> a
>> fork of Scheherazade -- become available.
>
> I already have a fork, I just don't want to encourage people to use such
> aesthetically poor fonts, but as it seems to be the only solution at
> hand right now (especially the Unicode covering), I think I'll try to
> clean my font and publish it this week ISA.

Ok, great!

>> BTW: There is an الله lig in Scheherazade -- rather unattractive, but
>> it's there. Maybe you have an old version?
>
> Sorry, yes it has one but is no better than not having one at all.

It's ugly, no doubt, but we can easily replace it, and a couple of the  
other specials as well.

<snip>

>> See the above... make a list of errors in the font and we'll both work  
>> on
>> it one way or other. Back to Lotus: I suggest to you and Otared the
>> following project: develop Scheherazade into a free alternative to  
>> Lotus.
>> Lotus is that is as close to a pure OpenType font as we are going to
>> easily get. Although it supports less of Arabic-script unicode than
>> Scheherazade, it is a standard in the Arabic-script publishing world. So
>> if our default interface supports Lotus and Scheherazade out of the box,
>> we will be well on our way to what you guys are looking for.
>
> My initial idea was to extend Scheherazade in a similar way, but I gave
> up on this, there are so many similar glyphs in the Arabic Unicode block
> that a simple ligature like بي means 28 (Baa' forms) * 10 (Yaa' forms):
> 280 glyphs for one ligatures, I don't think this is a wise idea.

Sure, but again

لا يسقط الميسور بالمعسور

So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No  
need for perfection at the outset ;-)

Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just get  
the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 746 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:56:07AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No  
> need for perfection at the outset ;-)
>
> Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just get 
> the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.

OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:51:13 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:56:07AM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
>> So just start with Arabic, then Farsi, and forget the rest for now. No
>> need for perfection at the outset ;-)
>>
>> Actually, I suggest forgetting about ligatures etc. for now, and just  
>> get
>> the basics done for Scheherazade. We can work on ligatures etc later.
>
> OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
> Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
> as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
> marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip

Ok, thnx, Khaled. I looked at it: The الله is infinitely better, but does  
not quite match the rest -- the shaddah is way too big for it (or maybe  
the الله lig is too short). On closer inspection, I see that this is not  
the full الله lig, but a mix of the no-vowel version with the default  
shaddah. The actual FDF2 looks better. So there is still some OT work that  
needs to be done.

I also have some poetry macros that might help, need to port them to the  
new system...

Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not  
greater than 12 point.

The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word  
combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.

Next steps:

1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep  
100% maintainance?

2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this into  
a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can  
leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know how  
you would like to proceed.

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>
>>>> For scaling, we can specify a size, some thing like:
>>>>
>>>> \setupbodyfont[arabic=foo,20pt,latin=bar,18pt]
>>>>
>>>> or so.
>>> I don't know Arabic, but I've done similar things for Greek, and that 
>>> is not a good interface. You want a scaling factor, so users won't have 
>>> to worry about scaling in footnotes, titles, etc., an absolute size is 
>>> not a viable alternative.
>> indeed.
>>
>> btw, i have no problem with a bunch of predefined combinations (using  
>> the fallbacks mechanism) so that users can quickly initialize a typeface
>>
>> \usetypescript[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin]
>> \setupbodyfont[fancyarabicwithgreekandtraditionallatin,13pt]
>>
>> or so, collected in some type-* file, but that's as far as we can go; we  
>> need to guard at least some minimal quality
>>
>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
> 
> I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
> desirable. Think of this sentence:
> 
> عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
> 
> Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.

Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another 
'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections

I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then 
needs to handle all kind of exceptions too

proper markup is a good solution

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:23:59 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
>>  I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
>> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
>> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
>> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
>> desirable. Think of this sentence:
>>  عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
>>  Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
>> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
>> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
>> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
>> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
>
> Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another  
> 'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections
>
> I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then  
> needs to handle all kind of exceptions too
>
> proper markup is a good solution

Not sure I understand you, but could we do something like the following:  
Along the lines of \quote, \quotation:

Latin text\paren{here is some arabic text\paren[somefallback]{here is some  
latin} more arabic}.

so the fallback will be used when explicitly called. Put another way,  
could we add a conditional parameter to the fallback macro so that those  
chars are used only in situations when they are specifically called?

\paren[fallback=...]
\bracket[fallback=...]
\brace[fallback=...]
\anglebracket[fallback=...]

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:23:59 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
>>>> a quick start but with bad output is not the way to go
>>>  I was about to forget why I didn't like font fallbacks in the first
>>> place, the current font fallback mechanism assigns fonts per Unicode
>>> characters, this is fine until we come to common characters like numbers
>>> or brackets: you can only assign it to one font, which isn't usually
>>> desirable. Think of this sentence:
>>>  عربي 1234 عربي (English 1234 English (English) English) عربي.
>>>  Here, the outer most parentheses and first numbers should use the same
>>> font of the Arabic text, while the inner ones should use the font of the
>>> English text, font fallback can't do this. Instead we need to segment
>>> the text per script and apply fonts on whole segments, the Unicode
>>> Script Property annex describes a way to handle this, see
>>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/#Script_Names_in_Rendering.
>>
>> Sure but that can be done by using explicit switches to another 
>> 'environment' i.e. explicitly marking sections
>>
>> I'm not that sure if i want to add some fuzzy automatism which then 
>> needs to handle all kind of exceptions too
>>
>> proper markup is a good solution
> 
> Not sure I understand you, but could we do something like the following: 
> Along the lines of \quote, \quotation:
> 
> Latin text\paren{here is some arabic text\paren[somefallback]{here is 
> some latin} more arabic}.
> 
> so the fallback will be used when explicitly called. Put another way, 
> could we add a conditional parameter to the fallback macro so that those 
> chars are used only in situations when they are specifically called?
> 
> \paren[fallback=...]
> \bracket[fallback=...]
> \brace[fallback=...]
> \anglebracket[fallback=...]

sure, it makes sense to add that kind of structure

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 04:19:13PM -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
>> OK, here is an initial version. The glyphs are scaled up since
>> Scheherazade is tiny, fixed الله ligature, added لله and فلله ligatures
>> as well, fixed the swash kaf and the Sindi meem and a bunch of Quranic
>> marks as well: http://www.khaledhosny.org/files/simplenaskhi.zip
>
> Ok, thnx, Khaled. I looked at it: The الله is infinitely better, but does 
> not quite match the rest -- the shaddah is way too big for it (or maybe  
> the الله lig is too short). On closer inspection, I see that this is not  
> the full الله lig, but a mix of the no-vowel version with the default  
> shaddah. The actual FDF2 looks better. So there is still some OT work 
> that needs to be done.
>
> I also have some poetry macros that might help, need to port them to the  
> new system...

That'd be great!

>
> Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not  
> greater than 12 point.
>
> The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word  
> combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.

I can't think in any other word on top of my head, but I'm fine with
making it a 'dlig' instead, it isn't very common any way.

>
> Next steps:
>
> 1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep  
> 100% maintainance?
>
> 2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this into 
> a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can  
> leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know 
> how you would like to proceed.

Of course you are welcomed, actually I won't have much free time till
the end of march, it'd be nice if you can work on it.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Making necessary OpenType features on by default

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:41:39 -0700, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>  
wrote:

>> Not too bad a font. Like Lotus, it works best at smaller text sizes, not
>> greater than 12 point.
>>
>> The فلله lig should be off by default, there are other Arabic word
>> combinations that use that combo that have nothing to do with الله.
>
> I can't think in any other word on top of my head,

فَلَّلَهُ "he notched or broke it in many places"

> but I'm fine with
> making it a 'dlig' instead, it isn't very common any way.

sure

>> Next steps:
>>
>> 1. Can I add some fixes to this thing as well or would you like to keep
>> 100% maintainance?
>>
>> 2. I can try to put in some time in the coming weeks to develop this  
>> into
>> a default setup for ConTeXt-mkiv -- per recent discussions -- or I can
>> leave that to you/Otared and just review the results. Just let me know
>> how you would like to proceed.
>
> Of course you are welcomed, actually I won't have much free time till
> the end of march, it'd be nice if you can work on it.

Ok, let's say whoever gets to it first in the next few days and weeks :-)

سلام
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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