* \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
@ 2009-04-03 12:35 Khaled Hosny
2009-04-03 12:55 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-04-03 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 490 bytes --]
framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\starttext
\startTEXpage
\input tufte
\stopTEXpage
\framed{Hello world}
\startframedtext
\input tufte
\stopframedtext
\startbackground
\input tufte
\stopbackground
\stoptext
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 12:35 \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-04-03 12:55 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 20:47 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-03 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
> directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
>
> \pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage
> \input tufte
> \stopTEXpage
> \framed{Hello world}
> \startframedtext
> \input tufte
> \stopframedtext
> \startbackground
> \input tufte
> \stopbackground
> \stoptext
if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 12:55 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-04-03 20:47 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-03 21:08 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 21:17 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-04-03 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1430 bytes --]
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
>> directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
>>
>> \pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
>> \starttext
>> \startTEXpage
>> \input tufte
>> \stopTEXpage
>> \framed{Hello world}
>> \startframedtext
>> \input tufte
>> \stopframedtext
>> \startbackground
>> \input tufte
>> \stopbackground
>> \stoptext
>
> if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
> handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
> aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
> macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
> need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
the log after "Completed box being shipped out [1]"), while in context
all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
\pagedir TRT
\bodydir TRT
\pardir TRT
\textdir TRT
\tracingall
Hello \hbox{World}
\bye
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 20:47 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-04-03 21:08 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 21:25 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-04-03 21:17 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-03 21:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Idris Samawi Hamid
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
>>> directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
>>>
>>> \pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
>>> \starttext
>>> \startTEXpage
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopTEXpage
>>> \framed{Hello world}
>>> \startframedtext
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopframedtext
>>> \startbackground
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopbackground
>>> \stoptext
>> if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
>> handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
>> aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
>> macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
>> need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
>
> I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
> both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
> the log after "Completed box being shipped out [1]"), while in context
> all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
> don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
>
> \pagedir TRT
> \bodydir TRT
> \pardir TRT
> \textdir TRT
> \tracingall
> Hello \hbox{World}
> \bye
you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
% \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
% \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are enabled
the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir influence
textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to be rl
independent of page/bodydir
(we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir commands)
best is if you and idris sort this out (is part of idris onthology)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 20:47 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-03 21:08 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-04-03 21:17 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 23:48 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-03 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
>>> directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
>>>
>>> \pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
>>> \starttext
>>> \startTEXpage
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopTEXpage
>>> \framed{Hello world}
>>> \startframedtext
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopframedtext
>>> \startbackground
>>> \input tufte
>>> \stopbackground
>>> \stoptext
>> if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
>> handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
>> aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
>> macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
>> need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
>
> I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
> both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
> the log after "Completed box being shipped out [1]"), while in context
> all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
> don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
a better example of the mess we're dealing with:
\starttext
\pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\stoptext
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 21:08 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-04-03 21:25 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-04-03 21:28 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2009-04-03 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen, mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:08:48 -0600, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
> % \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
> % \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
> i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are
> enabled the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir
> influence textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to be
> rl independent of page/bodydir
> (we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir
> commands)
Indeed. We may also need Taco's help; he's about the only one I know who
precisely understands the distinction between \pardir and \bodydir. I did
some extensive testing on this nearly two years ago and could hardly make
sense of it. The user should never have to touch \pardir or \bodydir and
we need a higher level command. Not sure if the same will work at the
macro level.
I'll search for Taco's old detailed explanations of these two and forward
them to you and Khalid.
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 21:25 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2009-04-03 21:28 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-03 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس
سماوي حامد
Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:08:48 -0600, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
>> % \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
>> % \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
>> i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are
>> enabled the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir
>> influence textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to
>> be rl independent of page/bodydir
>> (we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir
>> commands)
>
> Indeed. We may also need Taco's help; he's about the only one I know who
> precisely understands the distinction between \pardir and \bodydir. I
> did some extensive testing on this nearly two years ago and could hardly
> make sense of it. The user should never have to touch \pardir or
> \bodydir and we need a higher level command. Not sure if the same will
> work at the macro level.
>
> I'll search for Taco's old detailed explanations of these two and
> forward them to you and Khalid.
there has been changes (consistency cleasups) to the engine so you might
want to run some tests again; first we need to be absolutely sure of the
engine backend does things right (i.e. as we expect)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 21:17 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-04-03 23:48 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-04 10:35 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-04-03 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 961 bytes --]
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:17:25PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> a better example of the mess we're dealing with:
>
> \starttext
>
> \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
> tufte \stopTEXpage
> \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
> tufte \stopTEXpage
> \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
> tufte \stopTEXpage
> \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
> tufte \stopTEXpage
>
> \stoptext
Thanks for the example, I think I got your point. From my understanding,
I think text and paragraph direction should be only controlled by
\textdir and \pardir respectively, whatever \pagedir or \bodydir are.
Indeed, I don't see why \bodydir would influence the text direction
inside boxes.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-03 23:48 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-04-04 10:35 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-04 15:05 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-04 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:17:25PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> a better example of the mess we're dealing with:
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
>> tufte \stopTEXpage
>> \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
>> tufte \stopTEXpage
>> \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
>> tufte \stopTEXpage
>> \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
>> tufte \stopTEXpage
>>
>> \stoptext
>
> Thanks for the example, I think I got your point. From my understanding,
> I think text and paragraph direction should be only controlled by
> \textdir and \pardir respectively, whatever \pagedir or \bodydir are.
> Indeed, I don't see why \bodydir would influence the text direction
> inside boxes.
indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the
page/bodydir for the moment)
since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following
\setuplayout[direction=r2l] % also influences general layout issues
\setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir
\setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward
so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then,
they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-04 10:35 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-04-04 15:05 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-05 9:14 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-04-04 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1710 bytes --]
On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 12:35:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
> indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the
> page/bodydir for the moment)
>
> since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following
>
> \setuplayout[direction=r2l] % also influences general layout issues
I assume that will mirror all layout elements like double sided page
numbering, right and left pages etc. right?
> \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir
> \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward
>
> so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then,
> they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key
This sounds very good for me.
While we are in it, I'd suggest that the current implicit bidi to be
revised, currently it is broken. I suggest to be implement Unicode BiDi
algorithm[1], and the "higher-level protocols[2]" part is worthy
investigating. Also, I think it should be decoupled from character
mirroring, so that one can enable mirroring while explicitly setting
text direction. Also, some characters that had assigned mirrored
property in Unicode 5.0.0 has been reversed in later revisions[3]
because it "affects deployed data" (the source of all evil!), this
includes quotation marks, so we need to handle mirroring of those
characters as part of the suggested higher-level protocols as well.
[1]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/
[2]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/#Higher-Level_Protocols
[3]http://unicode.org/versions/corrigendum6.html
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
2009-04-04 15:05 ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2009-04-05 9:14 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-04-05 9:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 12:35:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the
>> page/bodydir for the moment)
>>
>> since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following
>>
>> \setuplayout[direction=r2l] % also influences general layout issues
>
> I assume that will mirror all layout elements like double sided page
> numbering, right and left pages etc. right?
yes, the thing that idris identified in his onthology (which might have
white spots); we start on this once some other arabic font subsystem,
has been completed
>> \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir
>> \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward
>>
>> so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then,
>> they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key
>
> This sounds very good for me.
ok, the next beta will have the \setupalign and align= available
> While we are in it, I'd suggest that the current implicit bidi to be
> revised, currently it is broken. I suggest to be implement Unicode BiDi
> algorithm[1], and the "higher-level protocols[2]" part is worthy
> investigating. Also, I think it should be decoupled from character
> mirroring, so that one can enable mirroring while explicitly setting
> text direction. Also, some characters that had assigned mirrored
> property in Unicode 5.0.0 has been reversed in later revisions[3]
> because it "affects deployed data" (the source of all evil!), this
> includes quotation marks, so we need to handle mirroring of those
> characters as part of the suggested higher-level protocols as well.
hm, this character mirroring is kind of evil anyway (as it can also
intefere with font features)
i'll look into it later (first need to finish a few things)
the problem with bidi is that it it has to work ok with the already
present (of triggered) TRT / TLT nodes which is not that trivial
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-04-05 9:14 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-04-03 12:35 \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches Khaled Hosny
2009-04-03 12:55 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 20:47 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-03 21:08 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 21:25 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2009-04-03 21:28 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 21:17 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-03 23:48 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-04 10:35 ` Hans Hagen
2009-04-04 15:05 ` Khaled Hosny
2009-04-05 9:14 ` Hans Hagen
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