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* (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
@ 2020-03-15 19:32 Pablo Rodriguez
  2020-03-15 21:56 ` Wolfgang Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2020-03-15 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

Hi Hans,

here you have the sample:

    \setuppapersize[A6]
    \setupinteraction[state=start]
    \enabledirectives[references.border]

    \setupbodyfont[pagella]

    \starttext

    \placelist[section]
        [alternative=d,
         style=\it]

    \section{Section 1}
    \section{\dorecurse{25}{Section }3}
    \section{Section 3}
    \stoptext

For some strange reason (at least, to me), \placelist[alternative=d]
seems to misbehave when using \it or \bi as style.

Everthing is fine when italic fonts aren’t used.

I’m afraid I may be hitting a bug in both latest MkXL from 2020.03.10
14:52 and MkIV from 2019.07.24 11:31.

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-15 19:32 (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics Pablo Rodriguez
@ 2020-03-15 21:56 ` Wolfgang Schuster
  2020-03-16  9:01   ` Pablo Rodriguez
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-03-15 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Pablo Rodriguez

Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 15.03.2020 um 20:32:
> Hi Hans,
> 
> here you have the sample:
> 
>      \setuppapersize[A6]
>      \setupinteraction[state=start]
>      \enabledirectives[references.border]
> 
>      \setupbodyfont[pagella]
> 
>      \starttext
> 
>      \placelist[section]
>          [alternative=d,
>           style=\it]
> 
>      \section{Section 1}
>      \section{\dorecurse{25}{Section }3}
>      \section{Section 3}
>      \stoptext
> 
> For some strange reason (at least, to me), \placelist[alternative=d]
> seems to misbehave when using \it or \bi as style.
> 
> Everthing is fine when italic fonts aren’t used.

It can be fixed with a strut option for lists, e.g. 
\setuplist[strut=no]. The problem in this case is that the ex-height for 
the italic font is larger than the ex-height for the upright font which 
pushes the text down because add a strut at the begin and end of the 
entries.

Below is a minimal example of the problem, the \setstrut setting changes 
the height of the strut for the italic font.

%%%% begin example
\showstruts

\setupbodyfont[pagella]

\starttext

\dontleavehmode\it
\ruledhbox{\strut Section}
\ruledhbox{\setstrut\strut Section}

\stoptext
%%%% end example

Most fonts (I checked only a small number) don't have such a big 
difference between the ex-height of the upright and italic styles which 
makes it hard to notice the problem.

%%%% begin example
\define[1]\ShowExheight
   {\bgroup
    \setupbodyfont[#1]
    \subject{#1}
    \starttabulate
    \NC tf \NC \tf \the\exheight \NC\NR
    \NC it \NC \it \the\exheight \NC\NR
    \NC bf \NC \bf \the\exheight \NC\NR
    \NC bi \NC \bi \the\exheight \NC\NR
    \stoptabulate
    \egroup}

\starttext

\ShowExheight{pagella}
\ShowExheight{modern}
\ShowExheight{dejavu}
\ShowExheight{termes}

\stoptext
%%%% end example

Wolfgang
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-15 21:56 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2020-03-16  9:01   ` Pablo Rodriguez
  2020-03-16 12:27     ` Wolfgang Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2020-03-16  9:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On 3/15/20 10:56 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 15.03.2020 um 20:32:
>> [...]
>> Everthing is fine when italic fonts aren’t used.
>
> It can be fixed with a strut option for lists, e.g.
> \setuplist[strut=no]. The problem in this case is that the ex-height for
> the italic font is larger than the ex-height for the upright font which
> pushes the text down because add a strut at the begin and end of the
> entries.

Many thanks for your reply, Wolfgang.

I don’t get \setuplist[strut=no] working in the minimal sample I sent
yesterday.

> Below is a minimal example of the problem, the \setstrut setting changes
> the height of the strut for the italic font.

I must admit that I don’t understand how to handle struts (I’m not sure
I understand what they actually are.)

> Most fonts (I checked only a small number) don't have such a big
> difference between the ex-height of the upright and italic styles which
> makes it hard to notice the problem.

Yesterday I realized that Pagella was an extreme case, because I tried
to report this issue before, but Latin Modern didn’t show the issue (so
I thought I was doing something wrong).

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16  9:01   ` Pablo Rodriguez
@ 2020-03-16 12:27     ` Wolfgang Schuster
  2020-03-16 13:35       ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-03-16 12:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Pablo Rodriguez

Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 10:01:
> On 3/15/20 10:56 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 15.03.2020 um 20:32:
>>> [...]
>>> Everthing is fine when italic fonts aren’t used.
>>
>> It can be fixed with a strut option for lists, e.g.
>> \setuplist[strut=no]. The problem in this case is that the ex-height for
>> the italic font is larger than the ex-height for the upright font which
>> pushes the text down because add a strut at the begin and end of the
>> entries.
> 
> Many thanks for your reply, Wolfgang.
> 
> I don’t get \setuplist[strut=no] working in the minimal sample I sent
> yesterday.

The key isn't supported yet but it could help to avoid the spacing problem.

>> Below is a minimal example of the problem, the \setstrut setting changes
>> the height of the strut for the italic font.
> 
> I must admit that I don’t understand how to handle struts (I’m not sure
> I understand what they actually are.)

The simple answer is that a strut is a invisible vertical line with the 
height and depth of a line. When you look at the example below you can 
see the text in the first box touches the top and bottom boundaries.

When we add a strut at the begin and end of the text we ensure the last 
line has the depth of a normal line and the first line gets the complete 
height of a line.

%%%% begin example
\starttext

\ruledvbox{\samplefile{weisman}}

\blank

\ruledvbox{\begstrut\samplefile{weisman}\endstrut}

\stoptext
%%%% end example

>> Most fonts (I checked only a small number) don't have such a big
>> difference between the ex-height of the upright and italic styles which
>> makes it hard to notice the problem.
> 
> Yesterday I realized that Pagella was an extreme case, because I tried
> to report this issue before, but Latin Modern didn’t show the issue (so
> I thought I was doing something wrong).

Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the vertical 
spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use a fixed 
lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because the default 
distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).

Wolfgang
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 12:27     ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2020-03-16 13:35       ` Hans Hagen
  2020-03-16 14:42         ` Henning Hraban Ramm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-03-16 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Wolfgang Schuster, Pablo Rodriguez

On 3/16/2020 1:27 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 10:01:
>> On 3/15/20 10:56 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>>> Pablo Rodriguez schrieb am 15.03.2020 um 20:32:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Everthing is fine when italic fonts aren’t used.
>>>
>>> It can be fixed with a strut option for lists, e.g.
>>> \setuplist[strut=no]. The problem in this case is that the ex-height for
>>> the italic font is larger than the ex-height for the upright font which
>>> pushes the text down because add a strut at the begin and end of the
>>> entries.
>>
>> Many thanks for your reply, Wolfgang.
>>
>> I don’t get \setuplist[strut=no] working in the minimal sample I sent
>> yesterday.
> 
> The key isn't supported yet but it could help to avoid the spacing problem.
> 
>>> Below is a minimal example of the problem, the \setstrut setting changes
>>> the height of the strut for the italic font.
>>
>> I must admit that I don’t understand how to handle struts (I’m not sure
>> I understand what they actually are.)
> 
> The simple answer is that a strut is a invisible vertical line with the 
> height and depth of a line. When you look at the example below you can 
> see the text in the first box touches the top and bottom boundaries.
> 
> When we add a strut at the begin and end of the text we ensure the last 
> line has the depth of a normal line and the first line gets the complete 
> height of a line.
> 
> %%%% begin example
> \starttext
> 
> \ruledvbox{\samplefile{weisman}}
> 
> \blank
> 
> \ruledvbox{\begstrut\samplefile{weisman}\endstrut}
> 
> \stoptext
> %%%% end example
> 
>>> Most fonts (I checked only a small number) don't have such a big
>>> difference between the ex-height of the upright and italic styles which
>>> makes it hard to notice the problem.
>>
>> Yesterday I realized that Pagella was an extreme case, because I tried
>> to report this issue before, but Latin Modern didn’t show the issue (so
>> I thought I was doing something wrong).
> 
> Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the vertical 
> spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use a fixed 
> lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because the default 
> distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).
or one can play with these parameters, that default to:

\setupinterlinespace
   [height=.72,
    depth=.28]

(maybe we should have recomended values for specific fonts)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 13:35       ` Hans Hagen
@ 2020-03-16 14:42         ` Henning Hraban Ramm
  2020-03-16 17:01           ` Wolfgang Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2020-03-16 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users



> Am 2020-03-16 um 14:35 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>> Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the vertical spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use a fixed lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because the default distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).
> or one can play with these parameters, that default to:
> 
> \setupinterlinespace
>  [height=.72,
>   depth=.28]
> 
> (maybe we should have recomended values for specific fonts)

I had similar problems in the past and got to
2.9ex for Alegreya
3.2ex for Adobe Jenson

(Just tried, didn’t calculate anything.)

All the best,
Hraban
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 14:42         ` Henning Hraban Ramm
@ 2020-03-16 17:01           ` Wolfgang Schuster
  2020-03-16 17:42             ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-03-16 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Henning Hraban Ramm

Henning Hraban Ramm schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 15:42:
> 
> 
>> Am 2020-03-16 um 14:35 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>> Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the vertical spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use a fixed lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because the default distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).
>> or one can play with these parameters, that default to:
>>
>> \setupinterlinespace
>>   [height=.72,
>>    depth=.28]
>>
>> (maybe we should have recomended values for specific fonts)
> 
> I had similar problems in the past and got to
> 2.9ex for Alegreya
> 3.2ex for Adobe Jenson
> 
> (Just tried, didn’t calculate anything.)

How would this help for the original problem?

Wolfgang
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 17:01           ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2020-03-16 17:42             ` Hans Hagen
  2020-03-16 18:00               ` Wolfgang Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-03-16 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

On 3/16/2020 6:01 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Henning Hraban Ramm schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 15:42:
>>
>>
>>> Am 2020-03-16 um 14:35 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>>> Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the 
>>>> vertical spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use 
>>>> a fixed lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because 
>>>> the default distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).
>>> or one can play with these parameters, that default to:
>>>
>>> \setupinterlinespace
>>>   [height=.72,
>>>    depth=.28]
>>>
>>> (maybe we should have recomended values for specific fonts)
>>
>> I had similar problems in the past and got to
>> 2.9ex for Alegreya
>> 3.2ex for Adobe Jenson
>>
>> (Just tried, didn’t calculate anything.)
> 
> How would this help for the original problem?
Some fonts have a different ratio (I forgot what font i did .7 / .3) but 
indeed an all-bold or whatever style change sometimes demands a local 
\setupinterlinespace (no argument).

Of course one could also tweak the ht/dp of a specific style using one 
of the pseudo features.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 17:42             ` Hans Hagen
@ 2020-03-16 18:00               ` Wolfgang Schuster
  2020-03-16 20:04                 ` Pablo Rodriguez
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-03-16 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

Hans Hagen schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 18:42:
> On 3/16/2020 6:01 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Henning Hraban Ramm schrieb am 16.03.2020 um 15:42:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 2020-03-16 um 14:35 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>>>> Yes, pagella is a extreme case but when you use bold text the 
>>>>> vertical spacing is also messed up. You can avoid this when you use 
>>>>> a fixed lineheight (e.g. \setupinterlinespace[line=14pt]) because 
>>>>> the default distance is font dependant (default: 2.8 * ex-height).
>>>> or one can play with these parameters, that default to:
>>>>
>>>> \setupinterlinespace
>>>>   [height=.72,
>>>>    depth=.28]
>>>>
>>>> (maybe we should have recomended values for specific fonts)
>>>
>>> I had similar problems in the past and got to
>>> 2.9ex for Alegreya
>>> 3.2ex for Adobe Jenson
>>>
>>> (Just tried, didn’t calculate anything.)
>>
>> How would this help for the original problem?
> Some fonts have a different ratio (I forgot what font i did .7 / .3) but 
> indeed an all-bold or whatever style change sometimes demands a local 
> \setupinterlinespace (no argument).

I know there are cases where changing the height/depth ration can help 
but in this case the problem is caused by \strut which is bigger for the 
italic font.

A way to fix the wrong spacing here is to add a strut option to 
\setuplist (or use always the upright font to set the strut values).

> Of course one could also tweak the ht/dp of a specific style using one 
> of the pseudo features.

Also possible because the larger value for the ex-height of the italic 
font causes the bigger strut dimensions.

Wolfgang
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* Re: (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics
  2020-03-16 18:00               ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2020-03-16 20:04                 ` Pablo Rodriguez
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2020-03-16 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On 3/16/20 7:00 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> [...]
> A way to fix the wrong spacing here is to add a strut option to
> \setuplist (or use always the upright font to set the strut values).

Any of these ones would be great to avoid the corner cases.

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-03-15 19:32 (bug?) wrong interline in \placelist[alternative=d] with Pagella italics Pablo Rodriguez
2020-03-15 21:56 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2020-03-16  9:01   ` Pablo Rodriguez
2020-03-16 12:27     ` Wolfgang Schuster
2020-03-16 13:35       ` Hans Hagen
2020-03-16 14:42         ` Henning Hraban Ramm
2020-03-16 17:01           ` Wolfgang Schuster
2020-03-16 17:42             ` Hans Hagen
2020-03-16 18:00               ` Wolfgang Schuster
2020-03-16 20:04                 ` Pablo Rodriguez

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