MKIV, fonts, confusion

MKIV, fonts, confusion

[afsmith]

Hi ntg-context.

I'm very confused about accomplishing something that to me seems as
though it should be quite simple, but has proven for weeks of
occasional attempts to be very confusing. I'm finding existing
information from the contextgarden wiki and ntg-context archives to be
very newbie-unfriendly and inconsistent.
I'm compelled to improve the wiki, if only I could comprehend what I
would be documenting.

What I would like to do is use the full range of TeX-Gyre fonts (and
later possibly others) for my existing documents.
It is not clear to me...
Whether or not I am using MKIV, nor how to determine which engine I am running.
If not running MKIV/XeTeX, how to determine which fonts are installed.
What the items from the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
--list" correspond to.
How to use available fonts, nor where to draw valid parameters from
for use in font commands.
How to determine what font configurations are available for a given font.
Whether I need to write typescripts, nor how to find any existing ones.
Whether I need to concern myself with .map or any other font files.
Whether I need to configure anything, move any files, etcetera.
...As well as anything else I might need to install or use a font

For what it's worth, I have been using the command "texexec" to
process my tex files, am using a context minimals downloaded about two
months ago, and am running Linux.
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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As a reference,
I start from
http://meeting.contextgarden.net/2008/talks/2008-08-24-taco-typescripts/liberation.tex

Also
http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-fonts.pdf
and
http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-typography.pdf

and look into base/*
(yes egrep is you friend)

For what it's worth, I have been using the command "texexec" to
> process my tex files, am using a context minimals downloaded about two
> months ago, and am running Linux.
>

I'm on linux too and I use only mkiv
ie luatex + context

I always compile with
$>context <yourfile.tex>

Keep in mind that mkiv is beta ...

-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Hans Hagen]

afsmith wrote:
> Hi ntg-context.
> 
> I'm very confused about accomplishing something that to me seems as
> though it should be quite simple, but has proven for weeks of
> occasional attempts to be very confusing. I'm finding existing
> information from the contextgarden wiki and ntg-context archives to be
> very newbie-unfriendly and inconsistent.
> I'm compelled to improve the wiki, if only I could comprehend what I
> would be documenting.
> 
> What I would like to do is use the full range of TeX-Gyre fonts (and
> later possibly others) for my existing documents.
> It is not clear to me...
> Whether or not I am using MKIV, nor how to determine which engine I am running.
> If not running MKIV/XeTeX, how to determine which fonts are installed.
> What the items from the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
> --list" correspond to.
> How to use available fonts, nor where to draw valid parameters from
> for use in font commands.
> How to determine what font configurations are available for a given font.
> Whether I need to write typescripts, nor how to find any existing ones.
> Whether I need to concern myself with .map or any other font files.
> Whether I need to configure anything, move any files, etcetera.
> ....As well as anything else I might need to install or use a font
> 
> For what it's worth, I have been using the command "texexec" to
> process my tex files, am using a context minimals downloaded about two
> months ago, and am running Linux.

it depends on you language ...

the main complication with fonts is that in traditional tex there are 
only 256 slots in a font available

also, fonts relate to hyphenation

another complication is that traditional tex fonts come in design sizes

and yet another one is that we have math

and also in traditional tex fonts it vs sl

so, this is why a traditional tex font system is somewhat complex 
because it operates on several exis

now, for english you can ignore encoding issues but not for other languages

using the gyre fonts is not that complex as one of the objectives of the 
project is to provide consistent sets of fonts

\usetypescript[palatino][ec] % pdftex, one needs to choose an encoding

\usetypescript[palatino] % luatex, no encoding since unicode

and then

\setupbodyfont[palatino]

should for instance give you palatino

things like open type features etc etc demand some more knowledge as 
fonts differ considerably in this areas as well as can contain bugs or 
inconsistencies

if you ever have to use commercial fonts .. be prepared ... an even 
bigger mess is awaiting you since naming of files and fonts is often 
quite strange


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.05.2009 um 15:29 schrieb luigi scarso:

> As a reference,
> I start from
> http://meeting.contextgarden.net/2008/talks/2008-08-24-taco-typescripts/liberation.tex
>
> Also
> http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-fonts.pdf
> and
> http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-typography.pdf
>
> and look into base/*
> (yes egrep is you friend)


There is also a simpler way: http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/ :)

Wolfgang

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 13.05.2009 um 15:29 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  As a reference,
>> I start from
>>
>> http://meeting.contextgarden.net/2008/talks/2008-08-24-taco-typescripts/liberation.tex
>>
>> Also
>> http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-fonts.pdf
>> and
>>
>> http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-typography.pdf
>>
>> and look into base/*
>> (yes egrep is you friend)
>>
>
>
> There is also a simpler way: http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/ :)
>

still no arrived there.....
-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.05.2009 um 16:48 schrieb luigi scarso:

>> There is also a simpler way: http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/ 
>> simplefonts/ :)
>
> still no arrived there.....

I'm sorry but what do you mean?

Wolfgang


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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 13.05.2009 um 16:48 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  There is also a simpler way: http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/ :)
>>>
>>
>> still no arrived there.....
>>
>
> I'm sorry but what do you mean?
>
ah ,bad english
I mean:
I  have not look at  simplefonts  as I want -- I planned
to use  it for an article on felltypes for arstexnica

-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.05.2009 um 17:51 schrieb luigi scarso:

> I  have not look at  simplefonts  as I want -- I planned
> to use  it for an article on felltypes for arstexnica

You fixed the problem with the felltype fonts?

Wolfgang

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[afsmith]

Luigi, Hans, and Wolfgang, thank you for your responses. I'm still
unclear on several things. (comments on your responses follow
afterwards)

Let me try asking these things as questions. Specifically, could
someone please tell me...
1. How do I determine whether I am using MKII, MKIV, or XeTeX to
process my documents?
2. Given the line from a typescript...
\definefontsynonym[LiberationSerif] [name:liberationserif]
... how do I determine which file "name:liberationserif" corresponds to?
3. In both MKII and MKIV, how can I determine which typescripts exist?
In other words, how do I determine working arguments for
"\usetypescriptfile"?
3b. Specifically, in the case of...
\usetypescript[palatino][ec]
... in which typescript is this defined? (given a vanilla context
minimals installation)
4. What defines the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
--list"? Do they correspond to files? Type synonyms? etc.
5. Do I need to bother with map files for MKII?
6. Is it particularly recommended that I use MKIV? How stable is it
compared to MKII?

Luigi, what do you mean by "and look into base/*"? Which 'base'? Are
you talking about in the context minimals distribution? some specific
online repository? I have seen the two documents you mentioned.
Re-reading them has clarified things a little bit.

Wolfgang,
Currently the module you linked to
(http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/) is beyond my
understanding... I would first like to understand the mechanism your
module operates on before trying to automate it.

Hans,
I am aware that there are such types of parameters that must be
defined for fonts. I understand 'it is complicated' but this does not
really help make things clearer to me. The inner workings of fonts are
of little concern to me to me at the moment. Right now I do not even
know where to look. I have seen the examples you gave for palatino,
such as...
\usetypescript[palatino][ec]
...but I have no idea where those arguments come from

Thanks.


On 5/13/09, afsmith <adventurecomplete@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> What I would like to do is use the full range of TeX-Gyre fonts (and
> later possibly others) for my existing documents.
> It is not clear to me...
> Whether or not I am using MKIV, nor how to determine which engine I am
> running.
> If not running MKIV/XeTeX, how to determine which fonts are installed.
> What the items from the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
> --list" correspond to.
> How to use available fonts, nor where to draw valid parameters from
> for use in font commands.
> How to determine what font configurations are available for a given font.
> Whether I need to write typescripts, nor how to find any existing ones.
> Whether I need to concern myself with .map or any other font files.
> Whether I need to configure anything, move any files, etcetera.
> ...As well as anything else I might need to install or use a font
>
> For what it's worth, I have been using the command "texexec" to
> process my tex files, am using a context minimals downloaded about two
> months ago, and am running Linux.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Hans Hagen]

afsmith wrote:
> Luigi, Hans, and Wolfgang, thank you for your responses. I'm still
> unclear on several things. (comments on your responses follow
> afterwards)
> 
> Let me try asking these things as questions. Specifically, could
> someone please tell me...
> 1. How do I determine whether I am using MKII, MKIV, or XeTeX to
> process my documents?

\doifmode {mkiv} { ... }

\ifnum\texengine=\xetexengine .. \fi

mkiv only run son top of luatex (and the context command replaces 
texexec there)

> 2. Given the line from a typescript...
> \definefontsynonym[LiberationSerif] [name:liberationserif]
> .... how do I determine which file "name:liberationserif" corresponds to?

not relevant since name will sort that out (given that the name is ok)

> 3. In both MKII and MKIV, how can I determine which typescripts exist?
> In other words, how do I determine working arguments for
> "\usetypescriptfile"?

by looking at the file, but at some point i expect users to switch to 
mkiv so if mkiv works for your document, then forget about mkii

> 3b. Specifically, in the case of...
> \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
> .... in which typescript is this defined? (given a vanilla context
> minimals installation)

that one in type-one (type one font)

> 4. What defines the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
> --list"? Do they correspond to files? Type synonyms? etc.

mkiv does not use fc-list and as fc-list does not work on my machine i 
have no clue

> 5. Do I need to bother with map files for MKII?

normally the typescript handles that

> 6. Is it particularly recommended that I use MKIV? How stable is it
> compared to MKII?

depends on your document; currently somewhat in flux due to 
reimplementing structure but that will stabelize

> Luigi, what do you mean by "and look into base/*"? Which 'base'? Are
> you talking about in the context minimals distribution? some specific
> online repository? I have seen the two documents you mentioned.
> Re-reading them has clarified things a little bit.

tex/context/base

> Wolfgang,
> Currently the module you linked to
> (http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/) is beyond my
> understanding... I would first like to understand the mechanism your
> module operates on before trying to automate it.
> 
> Hans,
> I am aware that there are such types of parameters that must be
> defined for fonts. I understand 'it is complicated' but this does not
> really help make things clearer to me. The inner workings of fonts are
> of little concern to me to me at the moment. Right now I do not even
> know where to look. I have seen the examples you gave for palatino,
> such as...
> \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
> ....but I have no idea where those arguments come from

well, palatino is defined in type-one

if ec makes no sense to you, then just use it (polish use qx, i use 
texnansi, etc ... it depends on the language you use and for english it 
hardly matters)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.05.2009 um 18:31 schrieb afsmith:

> Wolfgang,
> Currently the module you linked to
> (http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/) is beyond my
> understanding... I would first like to understand the mechanism your
> module operates on before trying to automate it.

My module simplifies the use of fonts in MkIV and is similar to the
fontspec package for LaTeX but has one feature which is not available
in fontspec.

Here is a example:

When you wan to use the Delicious fonts [1] from exljbris you need
a typescript which assigns each font to a certain style (upright,
italic, bold ...), you can see the complete typescript for the
Delicious font on the wiki [2].

When you use my module you don't have to create a typescript (this
done by the module when you select a font), you need only the
\set<xxx>font commands to set the fonts for the families (serif,
sans and mono). The setup for the delicious fonts is:

\usemodule[simplefonts] % load the module
\setmainfont[Delicious] % set Delicious as main (serif) font

\starttext
\rm\tf roman \it italic \bf bold \bi bolditalic \sc smallcaps
\stoptext

[1] http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/delicious.html
[2] http://wiki.contextgarden.net/CD_Booklet#Use_Delicious_OTF_font_with_luatex_.2F_mkiv

BTW: ConTeXt ships with complete typescripts for Mac (type-mac.tex)
and Windows (type-win.tex) fonts, more typescripts can be found at
http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/typescripts/.

Wolfgang

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Wed, 13 May 2009, afsmith wrote:

> Luigi, Hans, and Wolfgang, thank you for your responses. I'm still
> unclear on several things. (comments on your responses follow
> afterwards)
>
> Let me try asking these things as questions. Specifically, could
> someone please tell me...
> 1. How do I determine whether I am using MKII, MKIV, or XeTeX to
> process my documents?

Depends on how you process your documents.

texexec filename        => pdftex engine (mkii)
texexec --pdf filename  => pdftex engine (mkii)
texexec --xtx filename  => xetex engine  (mkii)
texexec --lua filename  => luatex engine (mkiv)
context filename        => luatex engine (mkiv)

> 2. Given the line from a typescript...
> \definefontsynonym[LiberationSerif] [name:liberationserif]
> ... how do I determine which file "name:liberationserif" corresponds to?

mtxrun --script font --list "*liberation*"

On my machine this gives

liberationmonobold         Liberation Mono Bold 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationMono-Bold.ttf
liberationmonobolditalic   Liberation Mono Bold Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationMono-BoldItalic.ttf
liberationmonoitalic       Liberation Mono Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationMono-Italic.ttf
liberationmonoregular      Liberation Mono Regular 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationMono-Regular.ttf
liberationsansbold         Liberation Sans Bold 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSans-Bold.ttf
liberationsansbolditalic   Liberation Sans Bold Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSans-BoldItalic.ttf
liberationsansitalic       Liberation Sans Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSans-Italic.ttf
liberationsansregular      Liberation Sans Regular 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSans-Regular.ttf
liberationserifbold        Liberation Serif Bold 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSerif-Bold.ttf
liberationserifbolditalic  Liberation Serif Bold Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSerif-BoldItalic.ttf
liberationserifitalic      Liberation Serif Italic 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSerif-Italic.ttf
liberationserifregular     Liberation Serif Regular 
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/LiberationSerif-Regular.ttf

> 3. In both MKII and MKIV, how can I determine which typescripts exist?
> In other words, how do I determine working arguments for
> "\usetypescriptfile"?

ls $TEXMFCONTEXT/tex/context/base/type-*

> 3b. Specifically, in the case of...
> \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
> ... in which typescript is this defined? (given a vanilla context
> minimals installation)

type-one.tex for mkii, type-otf.tex for mkiv.

> 4. What defines the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
> --list"? Do they correspond to files? Type synonyms? etc.

mtxrun --script fonts lists fonts in $TEXMF/fonts/ and $OSFONTDIR.

> 5. Do I need to bother with map files for MKII?

No. Unless you want to create a typescript for font not present in the 
minimals and ctan.

> 6. Is it particularly recommended that I use MKIV? How stable is it
> compared to MKII?

Mkii is extremely stable and well tested. Mkiv is in a state of flux right 
now. If you do not need any of the features of luatex (opentype fonts, 
ease of programming, etc.) stay with mkii for the time being. If you want 
to use luatex features, then you have to use Mkiv :-)


Aditya
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.05.2009 um 22:23 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

> On Wed, 13 May 2009, afsmith wrote:
>
>> Let me try asking these things as questions. Specifically, could
>> someone please tell me...
>> 1. How do I determine whether I am using MKII, MKIV, or XeTeX to
>> process my documents?
>
> Depends on how you process your documents.
>
> texexec filename        => pdftex engine (mkii)
> texexec --pdf filename  => pdftex engine (mkii)
> texexec --xtx filename  => xetex engine  (mkii)
> texexec --lua filename  => luatex engine (mkiv)
> context filename        => luatex engine (mkiv)

context --pdftex filename => pdftex engine (mkii)
context --xetex filename  => xetex engine  (mkii)

Wolfgang

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Mohamed Bana]

if you don't require anything completex 
http://github.com/contextgarden/otfinstall/tree/master automates a lot 
of the tasks required in installing a font in mkii.

afsmith wrote:
> Luigi, Hans, and Wolfgang, thank you for your responses. I'm still
> unclear on several things. (comments on your responses follow
> afterwards)
> 
> Let me try asking these things as questions. Specifically, could
> someone please tell me...
> 1. How do I determine whether I am using MKII, MKIV, or XeTeX to
> process my documents?

I tend to use

\begin{XETEX,OLDTEX,LUATEX}
...
\end{XETEX,OLDTEX,LUATEX}

> 2. Given the line from a typescript...
> \definefontsynonym[LiberationSerif] [name:liberationserif]
> ... how do I determine which file "name:liberationserif" corresponds to?
> 3. In both MKII and MKIV, how can I determine which typescripts exist?
> In other words, how do I determine working arguments for
> "\usetypescriptfile"?
> 3b. Specifically, in the case of...
> \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
> ... in which typescript is this defined? (given a vanilla context
> minimals installation)
> 4. What defines the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
> --list"? Do they correspond to files? Type synonyms? etc.

fc-list also looks in $HOME/.fonts/

> 5. Do I need to bother with map files for MKII?
> 6. Is it particularly recommended that I use MKIV? How stable is it
> compared to MKII?
> 
> Luigi, what do you mean by "and look into base/*"? Which 'base'? Are
> you talking about in the context minimals distribution? some specific
> online repository? I have seen the two documents you mentioned.
> Re-reading them has clarified things a little bit.
> 
> Wolfgang,
> Currently the module you linked to
> (http://bitbucket.org/wolfs/simplefonts/) is beyond my
> understanding... I would first like to understand the mechanism your
> module operates on before trying to automate it.
> 
> Hans,
> I am aware that there are such types of parameters that must be
> defined for fonts. I understand 'it is complicated' but this does not
> really help make things clearer to me. The inner workings of fonts are
> of little concern to me to me at the moment. Right now I do not even
> know where to look. I have seen the examples you gave for palatino,
> such as...
> \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
> ...but I have no idea where those arguments come from
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> On 5/13/09, afsmith <adventurecomplete@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>> What I would like to do is use the full range of TeX-Gyre fonts (and
>> later possibly others) for my existing documents.
>> It is not clear to me...
>> Whether or not I am using MKIV, nor how to determine which engine I am
>> running.
>> If not running MKIV/XeTeX, how to determine which fonts are installed.
>> What the items from the output of "fc-list" or "mtxrun --script fonts
>> --list" correspond to.
>> How to use available fonts, nor where to draw valid parameters from
>> for use in font commands.
>> How to determine what font configurations are available for a given font.
>> Whether I need to write typescripts, nor how to find any existing ones.
>> Whether I need to concern myself with .map or any other font files.
>> Whether I need to configure anything, move any files, etcetera.
>> ...As well as anything else I might need to install or use a font
>>
>> For what it's worth, I have been using the command "texexec" to
>> process my tex files, am using a context minimals downloaded about two
>> months ago, and am running Linux.
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 13.05.2009 um 17:51 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  I  have not look at  simplefonts  as I want -- I planned
>> to use  it for an article on felltypes for arstexnica
>>
>
> You fixed the problem with the felltype fonts?
>
No, maybe this weekend I will able to investigate a bit more .

The problem is the follow:
pdf make with felltypes and mkiv looks ugly in AdobeReader9 ---but not in
xpdf with latest freetype -- because of a unsual em size.
If you install the fonts in OpenOffice, the same document looks ok.


$>pdffonts felltype.pdf
name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
PDPWHW+LMRoman12-Regular             CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      4  0
DUTOMC+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      5  0

$>pdffonts felltype_oo.pdf
name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C           yes yes no       8  0
FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C

So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
and if is it possible to do  the same thing in mkiv.

-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 13.05.2009 um 17:51 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  I  have not look at  simplefonts  as I want -- I planned
>> to use  it for an article on felltypes for arstexnica
>>
>
> You fixed the problem with the felltype fonts?
>
>
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 13.05.2009 um 17:51 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  I  have not look at  simplefonts  as I want -- I planned
>> to use  it for an article on felltypes for arstexnica
>>
>
> You fixed the problem with the felltype fonts?

No, maybe this weekend I will able to investigate a bit more .

The problem is the follow:
pdf make with felltypes and mkiv looks ugly in AdobeReader9 ---but not in
xpdf with latest freetype -- because of a unsual em size.
If you install the fonts in OpenOffice, the same document looks ok.


$>pdffonts felltype.pdf
name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
PDPWHW+LMRoman12-Regular             CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      4  0
DUTOMC+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      5  0

$>pdffonts felltype_oo.pdf
name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C           yes yes no       8  0
FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C

So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
and if is it possible to do  the same thing in mkiv.




-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Taco Hoekwater]

luigi scarso wrote:
> 
> $>pdffonts felltype.pdf
> name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
> PDPWHW+LMRoman12-Regular             CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      4  0
> DUTOMC+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      5  0
> 
> $>pdffonts felltype_oo.pdf
> name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
> FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C           yes yes no       8  0
> FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C
> 
> So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,

I guess that that is not hard when a document uses no more than 256
glyphs from the font. Can you experiment a bit and see what happens
if you use more of them?

> and if is it possible to do  the same thing in mkiv.

No.

Best wishes,
Taco



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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

>
>
> luigi scarso wrote:
> >
> > $>pdffonts felltype.pdf
> > name                                 type              emb sub uni object
> ID
> > ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- ---
> ---------
> > PDPWHW+LMRoman12-Regular             CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      4
>  0
> > DUTOMC+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      5
>  0
> >
> > $>pdffonts felltype_oo.pdf
> > name                                 type              emb sub uni object
> ID
> > ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- ---
> ---------
> > FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C           yes yes no       8
>  0
> > FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C
> >
> > So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
>
> I guess that that is not hard when a document uses no more than 256
> glyphs from the font.


yes, a sort of creation of font encodings at fly for more than 256 glyphs --
but why ?
Also, does it fix em size, given that this appears to be the root of the
problem ?


> Can you experiment a bit and see what happens
> if you use more of them?
>
> yes ,if I have time this weekend -- volunteer welcome, of course.



-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Taco Hoekwater]

luigi scarso wrote:
>     > So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
> 
>     I guess that that is not hard when a document uses no more than 256
>     glyphs from the font. 
> 
> 
> yes, a sort of creation of font encodings at fly for more than 256
> glyphs -- but why ?

Maybe to get around that bug^H^H^Hfeature in AR8 and AR9 that
causes distress in mkiv, but more likely is that they believed
the reencoding to Type1c was easier to handle than dealing with
CID fonts.

> Also, does it fix em size, given that this appears to be the root of the
> problem ?

No, it fixes nothing. It just works around the issue. The cause of
the problem is that AR8 and AR9 *require* Type0 fonts to have 1000
units/em, otherwise the glyph drawing routine outputs an incorrectly
scaled object. There is no such limitation for Type1C fonts, and
that is why it works ok there (at least for now, who knows what AR10
will bring ...)

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

>
>
> luigi scarso wrote:
> >     > So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
> >
> >     I guess that that is not hard when a document uses no more than 256
> >     glyphs from the font.
> >
> >
> > yes, a sort of creation of font encodings at fly for more than 256
> > glyphs -- but why ?
>
> Maybe to get around that bug^H^H^Hfeature in AR8 and AR9

it's a bug of AR8 and AR9 , IMHO .
AR7 shows it ok;
AR5 says it's a broken  pdf .


> > Also, does it fix em size, given that this appears to be the root of the
> > problem ?
>
> No, it fixes nothing. It just works around the issue. The cause of
> the problem is that AR8 and AR9 *require* Type0 fonts to have 1000
> units/em, otherwise the glyph drawing routine outputs an incorrectly
> scaled object. There is no such limitation for Type1C fonts, and
> that is why it works ok there (at least for now, who knows what AR10
> will bring ...)
>
And aren't we able to do the same trick -- even with a lots of unreadable
macros -- in luatex ?

-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Taco Hoekwater]

luigi scarso wrote:
> 
> And aren't we able to do the same trick -- even with a lots of
> unreadable macros -- in luatex ?

No, it needs engine support which is not present. Fastest solution:
open the font in fontforge and fix the units, save under a different
name, and use that font instead.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

>
>
> luigi scarso wrote:
> >
> > And aren't we able to do the same trick -- even with a lots of
> > unreadable macros -- in luatex ?
>
> No, it needs engine support which is not present. Fastest solution:
> open the font in fontforge and fix the units, save under a different
> name, and use that font instead.
>
arthur told me that can arise rounding errors.
I should try to convert to Type1 instead



-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 14.05.2009 um 12:12 schrieb luigi scarso:

> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Taco Hoekwater  
> <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
>
>> No, it needs engine support which is not present. Fastest solution:
>> open the font in fontforge and fix the units, save under a different
>> name, and use that font instead.
>>
> arthur told me that can arise rounding errors.
> I should try to convert to Type1 instead

when i convert the to TT format i get a correct output

Wolfgang

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> arthur told me that can arise rounding errors.

  You have to remember I used to be a mathematician.  I say things that
are meant to be true, not meant to be helpful :-)

  If you want to be sure that LuaTeX's output looks right in the most
recent versions of Adobe Reader, editing the font is the way to go
(although there might be license issues with commercial fonts).  Of
course conversion is not perfect, but you can't have it both way!
Besides, the metrics won't change if you only modify upm; only the
outlines do.

> I should try to convert to Type1 instead

  That should indeed work if you don't need more than 256 glyphs in the
font (are you *sure* you don't?).

	Arthur

-- 
  Student: I'm new at this university, and I'm lost.  Can you tell me
           where I am?
  Professor, after a 1- or 2-minute pause: You're in my office.
  Student: Oh, I see.  I'm in the math department.
  Professor: Yes!  How did you guess?
  Student: That's easy:
           1. You thought your answer over thorougly.
	   2. The facts you stated are exactly true.
	   3. They don't help me at all!
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> when i convert the to TT format i get a correct output

  If Luigi is concerned with rounding errors, he shouldn't do that:
while the coordinates of the points on the curve wouldn't change, all
the control points would need to be recalculated due to the conversion
from cubic to quadratic splines.  On the other hand, if you keep CFF
outlines and reset the units per em size from 2048 to 1000, you're of
course exposed to rounding errors, but all the original points are
retained, both points on the curve and control points -- thus it's much
less error-prone, in my opinion.

	Arthur
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Taco Hoekwater]

Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
>> when i convert the to TT format i get a correct output
> 
>   If Luigi is concerned with rounding errors, he shouldn't do that:
> while the coordinates of the points on the curve wouldn't change, all
> the control points would need to be recalculated due to the conversion
> from cubic to quadratic splines.  On the other hand, if you keep CFF
> outlines and reset the units per em size from 2048 to 1000, you're of
> course exposed to rounding errors, but all the original points are
> retained, both points on the curve and control points -- thus it's much
> less error-prone, in my opinion.

Rounding errors are not that important in this case, and there
are downsides to both (o3->o2 touches *only* control points, so in
some sense it is more precise than upm change). What's normally more
important is that if you convert to ttf, you will loose all hinting
information.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03:10AM +0200, luigi scarso wrote:
> $>pdffonts felltype.pdf
> name                          
>        type              emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
> PDPWHW+LMRoman12-Regular             CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      4  0
> DUTOMC+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman CID Type 0C       yes yes yes      5  0
> 
> $>pdffonts felltype_oo.pdf
> name                                 type              emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
> FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C           yes yes no       8  0
> FTLUYL+IM_FELL_Double_Pica_PRO_Roman Type 1C
> 
> So I don't understand how OO "transform" this opentype in a Type1 ,
> and if is it possible to do  the same thing in mkiv.

Not only OOo, InDesign does that too, moreover, someone said even if
LuaTeX (XeTeX too) output looked OK in Adobe reader 7, the print isn't
OK.


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Rounding errors are not that important in this case, and there
> are downsides to both (o3->o2 touches *only* control points, so in
> some sense it is more precise than upm change).

  True, you can see it that way, too.  We really need Karel Píška here :-)

>                                                 What's normally more
> important is that if you convert to ttf, you will loose all hinting
> information.

  Right.

	Arthur
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Not only OOo, InDesign does that too, moreover, someone said even if
> LuaTeX (XeTeX too) output looked OK in Adobe reader 7, the print isn't
> OK.

  On what printer?  It's probably a bug in the driver, too.  LuaTeX does
exactly according to specification, I discussed this strategy with Taco
years ago.  I suppose XeTeX does conform, too, and it came to that
arrangement independently.  It's really sad that Adobe does not conform
to its own specifications.

	Arthur
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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Arthur Reutenauer <
arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:

> > arthur told me that can arise rounding errors.
>
>   You have to remember I used to be a mathematician.  I say things that
> are meant to be true, not meant to be helpful :-)
>
>  If you want to be sure that LuaTeX's output looks right in the most
> recent versions of Adobe Reader, editing the font is the way to go
> (although there might be license issues with commercial fonts).  Of
> course conversion is not perfect, but you can't have it both way!
> Besides, the metrics won't change if you only modify upm; only the
> outlines do.
>
> > I should try to convert to Type1 instead
>
>   That should indeed work if you don't need more than 256 glyphs in the
> font (are you *sure* you don't?).
>
>        Arthur
>
what I mean is:
chose an encoding
convert otf to type1 as is,
make a pdf with mkiv
check if it's ok.

It's only for experiment , of course:
Fell type come with a native ttf edition which is OK (or better, really OK),
and one should chose this one to avoid any problems
(so eventually I can compare pdfs ).

-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Am 14.05.2009 um 12:12 schrieb luigi scarso:
>
>  On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  No, it needs engine support which is not present. Fastest solution:
>>> open the font in fontforge and fix the units, save under a different
>>> name, and use that font instead.
>>>
>>>  arthur told me that can arise rounding errors.
>> I should try to convert to Type1 instead
>>
>
> when i convert the to TT format i get a correct output
>
yes, but there is also an original ttf version -- they works ok , of course
.

-- 
luigi

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Re: MKIV, fonts, confusion

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 15.05.2009 um 01:48 schrieb luigi scarso:

> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
> schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> when i convert the to TT format i get a correct output
>
> yes, but there is also an original ttf version -- they works ok , of  
> course.

you wrote this before and i used now the ttf version in the example i  
sent you offlist.

Wolfgang

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