* Re: French typography is back [not found] <mailman.0.1242930320.17979.ntg-context@ntg.nl> @ 2009-05-21 18:32 ` Robert-André Mauchin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-21 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Le 21/05/2009 18:29, Hans Hagen a écrit : > \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] > > \hsize .1mm a? aa? aaa? aaaa? > > seems ok here so what version are you using? > Ok, I've made test, I stand corrected, it does add a nnbsp, but does not remove the space (if there is) before the punctuation mark. That's why I end up with a "?" at the beginning of a new line. Thanks for the tip. Bob. ps: sorry for the bad "reply", but my subscription request has not been approved yet. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* French typography is back @ 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-21 14:39 ` Peter Münster ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-21 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Hi again, I have been reading all threads about the French typography in this mailing list, however the current solution is alas far for perfect. The command \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] was a good idea, but it only deals with spacing. French typography rules not only tells us that there should be a narrow, or a normal space before some punctuation marks like :, ;, , !, ?, « or », but also that theses spaces must be non breakable otherwise line breaking could occur just before a punctuation mark (and this is very bad). Take a look at the following example: \section{Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée?} With the current frenchpunctuation command, we got: Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée ? We should obtain: Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée ? Of course we could achieve this manually by adding the correct NNBSP like this: \section{Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée\,?} But I believe the whole point of TeX is to let the engine make all the typographic stuff. The best would be to get rid off \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and adapt the frenchb Babel module from Daniel Flipo (source and explanation here http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module (t-french modification), or when loading the language, but I really don't know how hard it would be since it handles a lot more than just punctuation marks. Regards, Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-21 14:39 ` Peter Münster 2009-05-21 15:24 ` Arthur Reutenauer ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Peter Münster @ 2009-05-21 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 21 May 2009, Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > With the current frenchpunctuation command, we got: > Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée > ? Seems to be a bug. Some months ago, this space was unbreakable as it should. > The best would be to get rid off \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and > adapt the frenchb Babel module from Daniel Flipo (source and explanation here > http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module (t-french modification), > or when loading the language, but I really don't know how hard it would be > since it handles a lot more than just punctuation marks. A good idea. This is work in progress: http://modules.contextgarden.net/t-french You can contribute. But I think, \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] should stay. The module t-french.tex should just integrate this command, that's all. Cheers, Peter -- Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-21 14:39 ` Peter Münster @ 2009-05-21 15:24 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-21 16:26 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 16:29 ` Hans Hagen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-21 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users > and adapt the frenchb Babel module from Daniel Flipo (source and > explanation here http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module > (t-french modification) Contact Sébastien Mengin (sebastien <at> edilibre.net) about that; he started working on it. Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-21 14:39 ` Peter Münster 2009-05-21 15:24 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-21 16:26 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 16:29 ` Hans Hagen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > The best would be to get rid off \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] > and adapt the frenchb Babel module from Daniel Flipo (source and > explanation here http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module > (t-french modification), or when loading the language, but I really > don't know how hard it would be since it handles a lot more than just > punctuation marks. no, active chars for such things are no solution and will not be supported in mkiv; setcharacterspacing is the way to go (and if it breaks that should be fixed instead); language support shoul dbe in the kernel anyway Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2009-05-21 16:26 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 16:29 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 17:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster 3 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 16:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > Hi again, > > I have been reading all threads about the French typography in this > mailing list, however the current solution is alas far for perfect. The > command \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] was a good idea, but it > only deals with spacing. French typography rules not only tells us that > there should be a narrow, or a normal space before some punctuation > marks like :, ;, , !, ?, « or », but also that theses spaces must be non > breakable otherwise line breaking could occur just before a punctuation > mark (and this is very bad). > > Take a look at the following example: > \section{Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée?} \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] \hsize .1mm a? aa? aaa? aaaa? seems ok here so what version are you using? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-21 16:29 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 17:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2009-05-21 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 21.05.2009 um 18:29 schrieb Hans Hagen: > Robert-André Mauchin wrote: >> Hi again, >> I have been reading all threads about the French typography in this >> mailing list, however the current solution is alas far for perfect. >> The command \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] was a good >> idea, but it only deals with spacing. French typography rules not >> only tells us that there should be a narrow, or a normal space >> before some punctuation marks like :, ;, , !, ?, « or », but also >> that theses spaces must be non breakable otherwise line breaking >> could occur just before a punctuation mark (and this is very bad). >> Take a look at the following example: >> \section{Production locale indigène ou production romaine importée?} > > \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] > > \hsize .1mm a? aa? aaa? aaaa? > > seems ok here so what version are you using? Not tested but shouldn't be the following two lines (type-spa.lua -> line 131/132) be written in the reverse order (penalty before skip). insert_node_after(head,start,make_glue_node(tex.scale(quad,right))) insert_node_after(head,start,make_penalty_node(10000)) Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* MkIV italic correction? @ 2009-05-20 6:25 Corsair 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Corsair @ 2009-05-20 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 324 bytes --] Hi all, Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code produces two identical "f)"s \starttext {\it f}) {\it f\/}) \stoptext -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-20 6:25 MkIV italic correction? Corsair @ 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 9:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Corsair wrote: > Hi all, > > Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code > produces two identical "f)"s > > \starttext > {\it f}) > {\it f\/}) > \stoptext open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-05-21 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --] On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: > Corsair wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code >> produces two identical "f)"s >> >> \starttext >> {\it f}) >> {\it f\/}) >> \stoptext > > open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? [1]http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/non-standard.html Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer [-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny @ 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Khaled Hosny wrote: > > Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard > italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font > projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > Khaled Hosny wrote: >> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? > > That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then > luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which > also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an entry in the glyph? for taco: it would be handy then to have a flag telling so, otherwise we would have to check for each glyph a field which for huge fonts is a slow downer ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 11:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hans Hagen wrote: > Taco Hoekwater wrote: >> >> Khaled Hosny wrote: >>> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >>> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >>> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? >> >> That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then >> luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which >> also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). > > so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an > entry in the glyph? They are automatically merged into the glyph, as glyph.italic_correction glyph.tex_height glyph.tex_depth Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 12:44 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > Hans Hagen a écrit : > > Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > > > The best would be to get rid off > > \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and adapt the frenchb Babel > > module from Daniel Flipo (source and explanation here > > http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module (t-french > > modification), or when loading the language, but I really > > don't know how hard it would be since it handles a lot more than > > just punctuation marks. > > no, active chars for such things are no solution and will not be > supported in mkiv; setcharacterspacing is the way to go (and if it > breaks that should be fixed instead); language support shoul dbe > in the kernel anyway > > Hans I don't specifically talk about active chars (I don't really not what this is, I'm an user, not a coder), but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. Why? Let me take your example again: {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly 1em and 0.25em. Moreover, this is true that in french typography we should use a thin space before some punctuation mark, and a thin space in France *was* one fourth of an em. BUT due to modern digital typography, a thin space now correspond to something like one fifth of an em. In digital typography, the normal space, i.e. inter-word separation, i.e. "espace justifiante" in French, has generally a size around one fourth of an em, calculated by the engine (you know that better than me). The thin space is a bit more than a half of the inter-word separation, i.e. between 1/8 and 1/6 of an em. So I *really* believe that you should not define space before and after punctuation with "arbitrary" em spacing. There must be a way to do a "search and replace" with the correct glyphs (U+202F and U+0020) before and after punctuation marks. > language support should be in the kernel anyway I agree of course, but although I believe this would encourage french "texers" to use Context, I don't think typography for a specific language is the priority for you&Taco right now. I wish you luck for the next beta release! Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3301 bytes --] > but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em > before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp > (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable spaces, for instance. In addition, characters like U+202F are very badly supported across fonts, and if you take in account the fact that the most appropriate width will probably change depending on the language, you're likely to observe much more arbitrary results if you use the glyph for that character in font. I seriously doubt you want to rely on the font for that. > Why? Let me take your example again: > > {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} > > a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? > > Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of > the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly > 1em and 0.25em. That's not the reason. The reason is simply that \, is defined as a \kern by one sixth of an em (see core-spa.mkiv: it's equivalent to \thinspace, which is \kern .16667em). In the first line, the value of .25em is defined in core-spa.mkiv; you can redefine it if you want. In any case, every space is completely controlled by ConTeXt, we don't let the font mess around. For that matter, Latin Modern doesn't have a glyph for U+202F, so if we'd use it, we'd just see nothing: there would be no space at all, see attached file. > Moreover, this is true that in french typography we should use a thin space > before some punctuation mark, and a thin space in France *was* one fourth > of an em. BUT due to modern digital typography, a thin space now correspond > to something like one fifth of an em. > In digital typography, the normal space, i.e. inter-word separation, i.e. > "espace justifiante" in French, has generally a size around one fourth of > an em, calculated by the engine (you know that better than me). The thin > space is a bit more than a half of the inter-word separation, i.e. between > 1/8 and 1/6 of an em. All this really calls for more coordination in order to produce decent specifications, in my opinion. If you think ConTeXt's default should be different, it's fine and I encourage you to contact Sébastien to discuss about it. Report then to Hans and Peter for the implementation. > So I *really* believe that you should not define space before and after > punctuation with "arbitrary" em spacing. There must be a way to do a > "search and replace" with the correct glyphs (U+202F and U+0020) before and > after punctuation marks. As my example file demonstrates, we clearly shouldn't use the glyphs from the font. Arthur [-- Attachment #2: frenchpunctuation.pdf --] [-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 15357 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: frenchpunctuation.tex --] [-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 852 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users Le 22/05/2009 17:51, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit : >> but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em >> before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp >> (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. > > I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue > and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all > inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of > U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with > its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been > the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode > spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while > respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable > spaces, for instance. > Not knowing the internals, that's what I tried to say with adding a space after instead of 1em, i.e. "calculated by the engine". If w an em is added after, it is not stretchable and shrinkable, right? > In addition, characters like U+202F are very badly supported across > fonts, and if you take in account the fact that the most appropriate > width will probably change depending on the language, you're likely to > observe much more arbitrary results if you use the glyph for that > character in font. I seriously doubt you want to rely on the font for > that. > >> Why? Let me take your example again: >> >> {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} >> >> a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? >> >> Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of >> the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly >> 1em and 0.25em. > > That's not the reason. The reason is simply that \, is defined as a > \kern by one sixth of an em (see core-spa.mkiv: it's equivalent to > \thinspace, which is \kern .16667em). In the first line, the value of > .25em is defined in core-spa.mkiv; you can redefine it if you want. > In any case, every space is completely controlled by ConTeXt, we don't > let the font mess around. > > For that matter, Latin Modern doesn't have a glyph for U+202F, so if > we'd use it, we'd just see nothing: there would be no space at all, see > attached file. > Thank you so much for the detailed technical explanation! So, AFAIK, I believe that the space before should be equivalent to thinspace. > All this really calls for more coordination in order to produce decent > specifications, in my opinion. If you think ConTeXt's default should be > different, it's fine and I encourage you to contact Sébastien to discuss > about it. Report then to Hans and Peter for the implementation. > Thanks, I'll see that. Maybe I could write some detailled specs in the wiki. Regards, Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users > Not knowing the internals, that's what I tried to say with adding a space > after instead of 1em, i.e. "calculated by the engine". If w an em is added > after, it is not stretchable and shrinkable, right? Right. But no particular space is added after '?' or '!' in French punctuation mode, TeX sets the standard inter-word glue, as it should. The only intervention by ConTeXt is the addition of the unbreakable space before those marks (and, obviously, after '«'). > Thank you so much for the detailed technical explanation! So, AFAIK, I > believe that the space before should be equivalent to thinspace. You'd need to take this up with Olivier Guéry, who suggested the 1/4 em value in the first place (refer to his interventions from last Fall, e.g., http://www.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2008/034845.html). He wrote up a small proposal on the wiki page for French Punctuation (http://wiki.contextgarden.net/French_Punctuation). > Thanks, I'll see that. Maybe I could write some detailled specs in the wiki. Yes, please do so by extending the aforementioned page if needed. Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2009-05-22 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1080 bytes --] On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Arthur Reutenauer < arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote: > > but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em > > before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp > > (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. > > I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue > and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all > inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of > U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with > its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been > the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode > spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while > respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable > spaces, for instance. > Maybe one can use something like this \defineremapper[filterItem] \remapcharacter[filterItem][`•]{\item} for "spaces" too -- luigi [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1493 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso @ 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users luigi scarso wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Arthur Reutenauer < > arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote: > >>> but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em >>> before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp >>> (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. >> I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue >> and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all >> inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of >> U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with >> its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been >> the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode >> spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while >> respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable >> spaces, for instance. >> > > Maybe one can use > something like this > \defineremapper[filterItem] > \remapcharacter[filterItem][`•]{\item} > > for "spaces" too as such a remapper is applied on all input eventually you end up in a mess and we don't want a mess ... the current mechanism acts upon the to be typeset text which is way more safe ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-05-22 22:58 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <mailman.0.1242930320.17979.ntg-context@ntg.nl> 2009-05-21 18:32 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-21 12:28 Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-21 14:39 ` Peter Münster 2009-05-21 15:24 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-21 16:26 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 16:29 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 17:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2009-05-20 6:25 MkIV italic correction? Corsair 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen
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