From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/50691 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert-Andr=E9_Mauchin?= Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: French typography is back Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:44:00 +0200 Message-ID: <4A169E10.6020209@pengzone.org> References: <20090520062507.GA4330@Fity> <4A152521.5070406@wxs.nl> <20090521132031.GA27281@khaled-laptop> <4A166F8F.4020003@elvenkind.com> <4A1682EC.1000201@wxs.nl> <4A168B4D.6010702@elvenkind.com> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1242996321 6511 80.91.229.12 (22 May 2009 12:45:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:45:21 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Fri May 22 14:45:14 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl ([131.211.172.88] helo=ronja.ntg.nl) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M7U7d-0005G3-K0 for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; 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country=FR; region=A8; city=Paris; latitude=48.8667; longitude=2.3333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=48.8667,2.3333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 230027456 - c4f540dd0a63 - 20090522 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 195.169.124.152 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:50691 Archived-At: > Hans Hagen a =E9crit : > > Robert-Andr=E9 Mauchin wrote: > > > > The best would be to get rid off > > \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and adapt the frenchb Babel > > module from Daniel Flipo (source and explanation here > > http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module (t-french > > modification), or when loading the language, but I really > > don't know how hard it would be since it handles a lot more than > > just punctuation marks. > > no, active chars for such things are no solution and will not be > supported in mkiv; setcharacterspacing is the way to go (and if it > breaks that should be fixed instead); language support shoul dbe > in the kernel anyway > > Hans I don't specifically talk about active chars (I don't really not what = this is, I'm an user, not a coder), but instead of arbitrary adding a = 0.25em before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real = nnbsp (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. Why? Let me take your example again: {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes = of the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not = exactly 1em and 0.25em. Moreover, this is true that in french typography we should use a thin = space before some punctuation mark, and a thin space in France *was* one = fourth of an em. BUT due to modern digital typography, a thin space now = correspond to something like one fifth of an em. In digital typography, the normal space, i.e. inter-word separation, = i.e. "espace justifiante" in French, has generally a size around one = fourth of an em, calculated by the engine (you know that better than = me). The thin space is a bit more than a half of the inter-word = separation, i.e. between 1/8 and 1/6 of an em. So I *really* believe that you should not define space before and after = punctuation with "arbitrary" em spacing. There must be a way to do a = "search and replace" with the correct glyphs (U+202F and U+0020) before = and after punctuation marks. > language support should be in the kernel anyway I agree of course, but although I believe this would encourage french = "texers" to use Context, I don't think typography for a specific = language is the priority for you&Taco right now. I wish you luck for the next beta release! Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________