From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/50699 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert-Andr=E9_Mauchin?= Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: French typography is back Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:17 +0200 Message-ID: <4A16D4F9.1070405@pengzone.org> References: <20090520062507.GA4330@Fity> <4A152521.5070406@wxs.nl> <20090521132031.GA27281@khaled-laptop> <4A166F8F.4020003@elvenkind.com> <4A1682EC.1000201@wxs.nl> <4A168B4D.6010702@elvenkind.com> <4A169E10.6020209@pengzone.org> <20090522155157.GF30326@phare.normalesup.org> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1243010473 23588 80.91.229.12 (22 May 2009 16:41:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:41:13 +0000 (UTC) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Fri May 22 18:41:03 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl ([131.211.172.88] helo=ronja.ntg.nl) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M7XmF-0004bn-VO for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:39:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EDE1FE9C; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:39:23 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24595-05; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:42 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0D81FE8E; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:42 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C101FE8E for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:41 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24862-03-2 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:32 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter3-til.mf.surf.net (filter3-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.219]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BABC1FE8B for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:32 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (relay2-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.194]) by filter3-til.mf.surf.net (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n4MGcU6R003959 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (mfilter4-v.gandi.net [217.70.178.38]) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999B7225186 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter4-v.mgt.gandi.net Original-Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]) by localhost (mfilter4-v.mgt.gandi.net [217.70.178.38]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZJnFjaNY6A-7 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:30 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from [192.168.10.51] (ip-201.net-89-3-63.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.63.201]) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B78D222517C for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:28 +0200 (CEST) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090513 Fedora/3.0-2.3.beta2.fc11 Thunderbird/3.0b2 In-Reply-To: <20090522155157.GF30326@phare.normalesup.org> X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=217.70.183.194; country=FR; region=A8; city=Paris; latitude=48.8667; longitude=2.3333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=48.8667,2.3333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 230128494 - 370257e3ef0f - 20090522 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.219 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:50699 Archived-At: Le 22/05/2009 17:51, Arthur Reutenauer a =E9crit : >> but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em >> before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp >> (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. > > I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue > and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all > inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of > U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with > its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been > the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode > spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while > respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable > spaces, for instance. > Not knowing the internals, that's what I tried to say with adding a = space after instead of 1em, i.e. "calculated by the engine". If w an em = is added after, it is not stretchable and shrinkable, right? > In addition, characters like U+202F are very badly supported across > fonts, and if you take in account the fact that the most appropriate > width will probably change depending on the language, you're likely to > observe much more arbitrary results if you use the glyph for that > character in font. I seriously doubt you want to rely on the font for > that. > >> Why? Let me take your example again: >> >> {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} >> >> a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? >> >> Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of >> the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exac= tly >> 1em and 0.25em. > > That's not the reason. The reason is simply that \, is defined as a > \kern by one sixth of an em (see core-spa.mkiv: it's equivalent to > \thinspace, which is \kern .16667em). In the first line, the value of > .25em is defined in core-spa.mkiv; you can redefine it if you want. > In any case, every space is completely controlled by ConTeXt, we don't > let the font mess around. > > For that matter, Latin Modern doesn't have a glyph for U+202F, so if > we'd use it, we'd just see nothing: there would be no space at all, see > attached file. > Thank you so much for the detailed technical explanation! So, AFAIK, I = believe that the space before should be equivalent to thinspace. > All this really calls for more coordination in order to produce decent > specifications, in my opinion. If you think ConTeXt's default should be > different, it's fine and I encourage you to contact S=E9bastien to discuss > about it. Report then to Hans and Peter for the implementation. > Thanks, I'll see that. Maybe I could write some detailled specs in the wiki. Regards, Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________