* Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
@ 2009-09-18 12:57 Mika Ritola
2009-09-18 13:14 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Mika Ritola @ 2009-09-18 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
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Hello all,
For some reason, the snippet below outputs 'ThOMAS' instead of 'THOMAS.'
This seems to be font dependent; at least Adobe Jenson Pro and Adobe
Garamond Pro produce 'Th,' while the other fonts that I've tried produce
'TH', as expected. I don't know whether the bug exists in the fonts
themselves or in the way they are handled by ConTeXt or the Simplefonts
module, or possibly some other part of the system. In any case, could you
suggest a work-around, please?
I'm using ConText version 2009.09.16 20:07 and Simplefonts version
2009.09.15.
\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[Adobe Jenson Pro]
\starttext
{\sc Thomas}
\stoptext
Thanks in advance,
Mika
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 12:57 Small caps problem/bug with some fonts Mika Ritola
@ 2009-09-18 13:14 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 18:15 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Mika Ritola wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> For some reason, the snippet below outputs 'ThOMAS' instead of 'THOMAS.'
> This seems to be font dependent; at least Adobe Jenson Pro and Adobe
> Garamond Pro produce 'Th,' while the other fonts that I've tried produce
> 'TH', as expected. I don't know whether the bug exists in the fonts
> themselves or in the way they are handled by ConTeXt or the Simplefonts
> module, or possibly some other part of the system. In any case, could you
> suggest a work-around, please?
>
> I'm using ConText version 2009.09.16 20:07 and Simplefonts version
> 2009.09.15.
>
>
> \usemodule[simplefonts]
> \setmainfont[Adobe Jenson Pro]
>
> \starttext
> {\sc Thomas}
> \stoptext
could it be a bug in the font? i.e. a Th ligature showing up in
smallcaps? if so, then simplefonts should disable ligatures in smallcaps
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 13:14 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
` (2 more replies)
2009-09-18 18:15 ` Barry Schwartz
1 sibling, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Derek CORDEIRO @ 2009-09-18 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Mika Ritola wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> For some reason, the snippet below outputs 'ThOMAS' instead of 'THOMAS.'
>> This seems to be font dependent; at least Adobe Jenson Pro and Adobe
>> Garamond Pro produce 'Th,' while the other fonts that I've tried produce
>> 'TH', as expected. I don't know whether the bug exists in the fonts
>> themselves or in the way they are handled by ConTeXt or the Simplefonts
>> module, or possibly some other part of the system. In any case, could you
>> suggest a work-around, please?
>>
>> I'm using ConText version 2009.09.16 20:07 and Simplefonts version
>> 2009.09.15.
>>
>>
>> \usemodule[simplefonts]
>> \setmainfont[Adobe Jenson Pro]
>>
>> \starttext
>> {\sc Thomas}
>> \stoptext
>>
>
That does not work for me at all. The following does work with generating
the same ThOMAS
\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[A Jenson Pro Regular]
\starttext
{\sc Thomas}
\stoptext
>
> could it be a bug in the font? i.e. a Th ligature showing up in smallcaps?
> if so, then simplefonts should disable ligatures in smallcaps
>
I doubt it is a font bug as the following plain luatex works.
\font\body=file:AJensonPro-Regular:mode=node;script=latn;language=dflt;+liga;+dlig;+smcp
at 12pt
\body Thomas
\bye
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
@ 2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 18:54 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 17:57 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 18:01 ` Hans Hagen
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Derek CORDEIRO wrote:
> That does not work for me at all. The following does work with generating
> the same ThOMAS
can you try ..
\definefontfeature[smallcaps][smallcaps][liga=no]
\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[A Jenson Pro Regular]
\starttext
{\sc Thomas}
\stoptext
if that works, then the font is bugged
i cannot test it here as i don't have those fonts
Hans
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 18:54 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 20:32 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Derek CORDEIRO @ 2009-09-18 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Derek CORDEIRO wrote:
>
> That does not work for me at all. The following does work with generating
>> the same ThOMAS
>>
>
> can you try ..
>
> \definefontfeature[smallcaps][smallcaps][liga=no]
>
> \usemodule[simplefonts]
>
> \setmainfont[A Jenson Pro Regular]
>
> \starttext
> {\sc Thomas}
> \stoptext
>
> if that works, then the font is bugged
>
Yes it does work, I guess the font has bugs after all.
Regards,
Derek
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 18:54 ` Derek CORDEIRO
@ 2009-09-18 20:32 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 21:40 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-18 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Derek CORDEIRO <derekcordeiro@gmail.com> skribis:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> > Derek CORDEIRO wrote:
> >
> > That does not work for me at all. The following does work with generating
> >> the same ThOMAS
> >>
> >
> > can you try ..
> >
> > \definefontfeature[smallcaps][smallcaps][liga=no]
> >
> > \usemodule[simplefonts]
> >
> > \setmainfont[A Jenson Pro Regular]
> >
> > \starttext
> > {\sc Thomas}
> > \stoptext
> >
> > if that works, then the font is bugged
> >
>
> Yes it does work, I guess the font has bugs after all.
If base mode uses the traditional TeX mechanism for ligatures, I don't
see any way the font can be blamed.
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 20:32 ` Barry Schwartz
@ 2009-09-18 21:40 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 22:05 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Barry Schwartz wrote:
> If base mode uses the traditional TeX mechanism for ligatures, I don't
> see any way the font can be blamed.
sure
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 21:40 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 22:05 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-19 16:32 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-18 22:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> Barry Schwartz wrote:
>
> > If base mode uses the traditional TeX mechanism for ligatures, I don't
> > see any way the font can be blamed.
Ant does the same thing, I believe, using the OT tables and heuristics
to run the TeX processor. That's okay, as long as the results aren't
blamed on the font. :)
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 22:05 ` Barry Schwartz
@ 2009-09-19 16:32 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-19 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Barry Schwartz wrote:
> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
>> Barry Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>> If base mode uses the traditional TeX mechanism for ligatures, I don't
>>> see any way the font can be blamed.
>
> Ant does the same thing, I believe, using the OT tables and heuristics
> to run the TeX processor. That's okay, as long as the results aren't
> blamed on the font. :)
well, that's alway sa bit hard to determine, maybe not in this case but
there definitely are dubious cases and heuristics that works in one case
migh tfail in another; also, as context base mode is mostly meant for
simple cases (and as said, it might be wise in the case of snallcaps to
not enable ligatures) and therefore suits most cases, but as reference
(and for more advanced work) node mode has to be used ... actually, when
users report bugs with fonts i kind of assume node mode
in the perspective of the oriental tex project (related to luatex/mkiv)
a complex font is being made and quite some time goes into figuring out
what exactly the common ground in ot is (we've decided to settle for
uniscribe/volt for final decisions as that's the most advanced machinery)
for instance there are more combinations possible on otf than the font
generating programs can handle and some combinations are only handled by
some renderers. of course the mkiv machinery can be blamed for much, but
so can the specification itself, the font generating tools as wel as fonts
the best we can do is to try to deal with all but eventually i think
that i'll end up with a couple of extra features / checks / etc; there's
also already a patch mechanism in place
having more advanced fonts is nice, but unfortunately (for commercial
reasons, or for stability reasons or ...) font vendors have no real bug
fix and upgrade policy but at least i can fix my own bugs -)
btw, in most cases it helps to nail down problems when we have the font,
which not always is the case, so in such cases we might need to gamble
where the problem sits
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 17:57 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 20:35 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2009-09-18 18:01 ` Hans Hagen
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Derek CORDEIRO wrote:
> \usemodule[simplefonts]
Question for wolfgang ... do you enable node mode?
in basemode, it might be that ligatures are loaded after smallcaps (and
base mode is static) and then it's the order of features in the font
that determines what happens,
if so, then maybe we should disable ligatures in the smallcaps
featureset definition (as i don't expect many smallcaps ligs anyway and
it might be less confusing)
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 17:57 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 18:01 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 18:58 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Derek CORDEIRO wrote:
> That does not work for me at all. The following does work with generating
> the same ThOMAS
another test:
\definefontfeature[default] [default] [mode=node]
\definefontfeature[smallcaps][smallcaps][mode=node]
\definefontfeature[oldstyle] [oldstyke] [mode=node]
Hans
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 13:14 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
@ 2009-09-18 18:15 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 18:42 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-18 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> could it be a bug in the font? i.e. a Th ligature showing up in
> smallcaps? if so, then simplefonts should disable ligatures in smallcaps
I'm looking at AGaramondPro-Regular in fontforge and it has the lookup
for small caps well above the lookup for ligatures. The software must
be reading the lookup table out of order.
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 18:15 ` Barry Schwartz
@ 2009-09-18 18:42 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 20:19 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Barry Schwartz wrote:
> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
>> could it be a bug in the font? i.e. a Th ligature showing up in
>> smallcaps? if so, then simplefonts should disable ligatures in smallcaps
>
> I'm looking at AGaramondPro-Regular in fontforge and it has the lookup
> for small caps well above the lookup for ligatures. The software must
> be reading the lookup table out of order.
no, it's just that basemode gets two features and replacement and
ligatures are both applied due to the definition of the smallcaps
featureset, so it's expected behaviour
- either adapt the definition of the smallcaps featureset (i'll do that
in the next beta)
- or switch to nodemode (in your case nodemode applies smallcaps before
ligatures)
Hans
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 18:42 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 20:19 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 21:39 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-18 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> Barry Schwartz wrote:
> > Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> >> could it be a bug in the font? i.e. a Th ligature showing up in
> >> smallcaps? if so, then simplefonts should disable ligatures in smallcaps
> >
> > I'm looking at AGaramondPro-Regular in fontforge and it has the lookup
> > for small caps well above the lookup for ligatures. The software must
> > be reading the lookup table out of order.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I should have said "lookup list table".
>
> no, it's just that basemode gets two features and replacement and
> ligatures are both applied due to the definition of the smallcaps
> featureset, so it's expected behaviour
The font is unambiguous about it, though. Are you sure the software
isn't performing the feature list in order rather than lookup list? Or
is the software performing substitutions in its own ad hoc order?
Now I _make_ opentype fonts with small caps and ligatures and so want
the software to do what I tell it (except when it was I who made the
error). :)
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 20:19 ` Barry Schwartz
@ 2009-09-18 21:39 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 22:38 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-18 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Barry Schwartz wrote:
> The font is unambiguous about it, though. Are you sure the software
> isn't performing the feature list in order rather than lookup list? Or
> is the software performing substitutions in its own ad hoc order?
in basemode we use built in traditional tex methods, so only ligatures
and kerning; as a bonus i also support replacements, but in base mode
the user really has to know what he/she asks for; in thsi particular
case, asking for both ligatures (not contextual btw) and repacements
(smsc) one gets them combined
so, this is why there is (the somewhat slower but more conforming) node
mode as well; in that case (contextual) lookups are taken care of
but even then, if a font is not clear about issues, then one can get
unwanted side effects (the frac feature for instance is often quite
bugged and can only be applied selectively)
also, in context mkiv we have variants like dynamic features, user
defined features, strategies etc (after all, nothing can stop us from
doing a better job)
> Now I _make_ opentype fonts with small caps and ligatures and so want
> the software to do what I tell it (except when it was I who made the
> error). :)
well, as said ... base mode has some known limitations and if you want
the whole lot, you should use node mode (fyi: apart from isolated
features we also support mixtures; the open type font format makes no
assumptions about tags and gpos/gsub application so for instance the
smallcaps feature might use one-to-one subsititutions as well as any
other kind and complex fonts (like idris arabic font) does that)
(maybe simplefonts should default to node mode)
Hans
ps. if you run (as i demonstrated at the eurotex/context conference)
mtxrun --script server --auto
you can access an interactive features tester in your webbrouwser
there is also a trace option there where you can see what happens (in
node mode)
Hans
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* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 21:39 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-18 22:38 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-19 16:52 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-18 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> but even then, if a font is not clear about issues, then one can get
> unwanted side effects (the frac feature for instance is often quite
> bugged and can only be applied selectively)
Yeah, I think trying to be fancy with contextual substitutions is a
bit like getting drunk. I'm not even sure why there was a "frac" tag
when it was originally intended to be converted to "numr" and "dnom"
tags.
(I just looked at
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec160/features_fj.htm#frac
to see what it says nowadays and now want to go get drunk.)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-18 22:38 ` Barry Schwartz
@ 2009-09-19 16:52 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-22 4:15 ` Barry Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-09-19 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Barry Schwartz wrote:
> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
>> but even then, if a font is not clear about issues, then one can get
>> unwanted side effects (the frac feature for instance is often quite
>> bugged and can only be applied selectively)
>
> Yeah, I think trying to be fancy with contextual substitutions is a
> bit like getting drunk. I'm not even sure why there was a "frac" tag
> when it was originally intended to be converted to "numr" and "dnom"
> tags.
>
> (I just looked at
> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec160/features_fj.htm#frac
> to see what it says nowadays and now want to go get drunk.)
actually the frac featurs, like most features is a rather generic one
and as such it should work out of the box (some of the justitication
features use gpos and/or assume specific renderer support, and some of
that is rather undefined)
so, its not that frac itself is the problem dealing with in the engine,
because if so, many features would be a problem, it's just that font
makers stick to a couple of simple rules like:
(1) replace all
<digits> <slash> <digits>
by
<sup digits> <overlapping frac slash> <sub digits>
(1) replace all
<digits> <slash> <digits>
by
<sup digits> <overlapping frac slash> <sub digits>
and if they have rule 2, it will mess up things like a/b
of course it can be properly dealt with ... just make proper rules
now, one reason that metafont kind of design tools never were accepted
as basic tool for font design is that designers are no programmers; and
one needs programmers (or at least some of the related mindset) to make
the more complex ot fonts (or one needs teams)
actually, as many fonts do have the sup/sub digits its rather trivial to
provide proper frac's in mkiv but till now i had no reason (time,
project, etc) for doing it
i fear the moment when designers start giving me rules like "use this or
that font and turn on those features" assuming dtp like control and
tweaking of the text (one reason for spending much time on fonts in mkiv
is that it will give me control over bad behaving fonts; think of wrong
glyph to unicode mapping and such)
Hans
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Small caps problem/bug with some fonts
2009-09-19 16:52 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2009-09-22 4:15 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-22 7:18 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-09-22 4:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> skribis:
> so, its not that frac itself is the problem dealing with in the engine,
> because if so, many features would be a problem, it's just that font
> makers stick to a couple of simple rules like:
>
> (1) replace all
> <digits> <slash> <digits>
> by
> <sup digits> <overlapping frac slash> <sub digits>
>
> (1) replace all
> <digits> <slash> <digits>
> by
> <sup digits> <overlapping frac slash> <sub digits>
>
> and if they have rule 2, it will mess up things like a/b
Is rule (2) missing? I see (1) twice.
Are there fonts that have a or b in the "numr" and "dnom" features but
where they do not work in "frac"?
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-09-22 7:18 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-09-18 12:57 Small caps problem/bug with some fonts Mika Ritola
2009-09-18 13:14 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 17:35 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 17:54 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 18:54 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 20:32 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 21:40 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 22:05 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-19 16:32 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 17:57 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 20:35 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2009-09-18 18:01 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 18:58 ` Derek CORDEIRO
2009-09-18 18:15 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 18:42 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 20:19 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-18 21:39 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-18 22:38 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-19 16:52 ` Hans Hagen
2009-09-22 4:15 ` Barry Schwartz
2009-09-22 7:18 ` Hans Hagen
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