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* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 12:14 Michael Saunders
  2010-04-03 12:16 ` Wolfgang Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

Taco:

>> Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
>> enormously.
...
> Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
> interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
> simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
> about it.
...
> The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
> complainers are in it just for the complaining.

I've been trying to be more constructive than saying  'it sucks'.
I'm not complaining just to complain---I want to get the most I can
out of the software.   Please point me to a rewritten chapter you
would like me to look at and I will give it a try.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 23:20 Michael Saunders
  2010-04-04  0:39 ` Aditya Mahajan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

> > 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
>
> For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
> bug-reports (with minimal example of course).

In some other venue?

> P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the threads.

Gmail.  This is broken?

> > 2. leftward protrusion fails
> > \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
> > \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> > \showgrid  % or \showframe
> > There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
> > is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:
> >
> Don't know what you mean, works here.
>
> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
>
> \usetypescript[modern]
> \setupbodyfont[modern]

The only difference I see is that I'm trying to use a different font
than modern:

 \usetypescriptfile[type-garamond]
\starttypescript [MTbook]
    \definetypeface[MTbook][rm][serif][garamondMD][optical]
...
\stoptypescript

\usetypescript[MTbook]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\setupbodyfont[MTbook,12pt]

So, leftward protrusion only works with Latin Modern?


> > 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
> > Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.
> >
> You have to enable it separate for notes.

> \setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]

I got rightward protrusion with that, but it looks like no hz.
Why are the key-values different?  I also tried {quality,quality} and
got nothing.

> > 5. footnotes break between pages
> > How do I stop this?
> >
> No example, no help!

Imagine:

<one page full of lorem ipsum... containing \footnote{half-page of
lorem ipsum...} >

The footnote will begin on page one, break halfway through, and
continue on the following page.  I want to prevent footnotes from
breaking in this way.
If you really need to see 1.5 pages of concrete "lorem ipsum" posted
to understand the problem, I can provide it.

> > 9. \raisebox?
> > What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
> > ...

> \raisebox{1ex}{?}

When I try:

\raisebox{1ex}{--}

Context stops on the error:

"A <box> was supposed to be here

\raisebox{1ex}{
		--}"

>
> What should ConTeXt do when your font doesn't provide the allcaps feature.

Some of the punctuation (e.g., hyphens, en- and em-dashes) should be
raised slightly and perhaps given a little extra spacing.  The feature
is in my serif font, but not in my sans, hence my effort to correct
this.

> > 10.  problematic characters in grid typesetting.
> > Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
> > notch.  Is there a better way to deal with this?
> >
> You can change the height/depth ratio of a line.
> \setupinterlinespace[height=0.6,depth=0.4]

I must remember to put that convenient command before every majescule Q.


By the way---I am thrilled to hear of and very eager to see Idris's book!

> But maybe a select audience of test-able volunteers will be the way to go...

I volunteer to be testable.

> Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
> are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.

I'm pursuing it with the hope of more beautiful results, but I'm not
getting my problems solved here so far.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
  2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

Wolfgang:

Thanks---I'll go over what I can of those this weekend and get back to
you and Taco about them in a few days.

Peter:

> > That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> > basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> > can't, but there is no way to find out.
>
> Could you please provide a typical example?

Here are ten:

1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
\setupcolumns[n=2,rule=off,distance=20pt]
\setupinmargin[style=\ss,align=outer]
\startcolumns
text text \inmargin{text} text
\stopcolumns
The marginal notes always print to the left of the column.  This works
perfectly for the left column, but fails for the right column---they
overprint the text of the left column.

2. leftward protrusion fails
\definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\showgrid  % or \showframe
There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:

3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.

4. interactive headers/footers
I'd like to make my header and footer texts hyperlinks to the head
that they point to.  I'm trying this:

\setupinteraction[state=start,color=darkgreen,contrastcolor=darkred]
\setupinteractionscreen[option=fit,view=fit]

\newcommand{\gmpt}{\getmarking[pt]}
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\gmpt]}}
\setupfootertexts[margin][\rlap\swpt\hfill][\hfill\llap{\getmarking[chapter]}]

(By the way, I'm resorting to this misdirection with the \newcommands
only because Context gives me an error whenever it finds nested
brackets.  E.g.,
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\getmarking[pt]]}}
would fail.)

Then, at the beginning of a part, I have to add the extra marking to
carry the reference in the 'pt' marker (right?), e.g.:

\part[pt:one]{One}\marking[pt]{pt:one}

But this does not work.  (By the way, all of this \defineXYZ,
\setupXYZ, \XYZ stuff is confusing.  It seems like there is some kind
of purpose to this pattern of naming, but I can't find what it is.)

So, I experimented:
{\about[pt:one]}
(a particular reference) works
{\about[\gmpt]}
(referring through the marking) fails---so I can find no automatic way
of doing it.

(By the way, why are my footnote markers all green---shouldn't they be
red?  could I make them black?  Why does clicking on them sometimes
send me to a random page?)

5. footnotes break between pages
How do I stop this?

6. hyphenation between pages.
How do I stop this?

7. opening state
I'd like my document to open in Adobe reader showing one page at a
time (as if "click to open one page at at time" had been pressed).

8. description
I spent the evening trying to get \definedescription to set a
description on a line of its own followed by an explanatory paragraph.
 I tried most of the keys/values.  I never got anything that looked
good, let alone close to what I wanted.  Finally, I spent a few
seconds writing a humble LaTeX-esque line:
\newcommand{\defhead}{\switchtobodyfont[gillSB,12pt]\ss}
\newcommand{\desclist}[2]{\crlf{\noindent\defhead #1\emspace#2}\crlf}
that did the job.

9. \raisebox?
What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
a lot of trial and error to find this:
\inframed[frame=off,offset=.5pt,height=17.3pt]{--}
to raise my en-dashes a little when \setff{ac} (for all caps) didn't
work with one font.

10.  problematic characters in grid typesetting.
Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
notch.  Is there a better way to deal with this?


> > switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
> > try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> > back to LaTeX.
>
> Why do you?

Because I think it might be possible to produce better output with
Context than with LaTeX (is this true?).  My experience has been quite
different from yours.  I got up an running with LaTeX in a week (in
1995), found the documentation clear and almost any effect I wanted
easy to achieve with well-documented packages that never seriously
conflicted.  This, on the other hand, is a nightmare.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03  9:23 Michael Saunders
  2010-04-03  9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03  9:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

"This is the project which has only 5 or 6 users. Who actually uses
it? Use LaTeX!"

That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
can't, but there is no way to find out.  If the claims that Context is
better really aren't empty, I would expect a lot of people to switch,
but I imagine 99% of them are in the same boat I'm in---trying to
switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
back to LaTeX.

Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key:  it can be
free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
only of benefit to Pragma.  (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
in the code and wonder about.)

Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book.  The knowledge
is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
communicate it.   It's evident that they either can't or won't.

I really would like to see the quality of computer typesetting
advance, and I was hopeful at hearing about Luatex/Context.   I'd love
to see Context produce better output more easily than LaTeX, but so
far I'm putting a lot of effort into it to get some very disappointing
results.   One might place some hope in a future (21st c.?) LaTeX 3
based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
works, and it seems doubtful that would ever happen.

For now I'm sticking with Context because I still hope there might be
some value in it, but it's hard to find.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-01 17:08 Arthur Reutenauer
  2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-01 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ConTeXt list

	Hello,

  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
delegating this task.

  The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!

  Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
like.

	Cheers,

		Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
		Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
		Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-04-04  7:33 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 78+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-04-03 12:14 The ConTeXt book Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 12:16 ` Wolfgang Schuster
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-04-03 23:20 Michael Saunders
2010-04-04  0:39 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-04  7:33   ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 14:37 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 19:35 ` Marcin Borkowski
2010-04-03  9:23 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03  9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-03 12:38   ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
2010-04-03 12:13   ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:45     ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 12:56       ` Gour
2010-04-03 14:03         ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 19:27           ` Gour
2010-04-03 19:48             ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 16:00         ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 12:24   ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:45   ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 12:09     ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:55     ` Graham Douglas
2010-04-03 12:35 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 12:55   ` Andrea Valle
2010-04-01 17:08 Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:29   ` Michail Vidiassov
2010-04-01 17:35   ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02  9:49   ` Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-02  9:57     ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 10:08       ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 11:18         ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 11:40           ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 12:20             ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 12:25               ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-02 12:39                 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-02 22:32                   ` Russell Urquhart
2010-04-03  5:37                     ` Gour
2010-04-03  6:47                       ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-03  7:47                         ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-04-03 11:32                           ` Gour
2010-04-03  6:54                       ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:42                         ` Gour
2010-04-03  8:51                       ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:48                         ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:30                           ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03  8:59                       ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03  9:15                         ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03  9:20                           ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 12:03                             ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:01                               ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:09                                 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 13:31                                   ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:36                                 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:42                                   ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:49                                     ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:53                                       ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:56                                         ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:14                                           ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:02                                         ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:16                                           ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:42                                             ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 16:11                                       ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 16:09                                     ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03  9:47                           ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:07                             ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-02 14:12               ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 14:16                 ` Matthias Weber
2010-04-01 17:32 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
2010-04-01 17:43   ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 19:38     ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-01 19:58       ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 18:45 ` Graham Douglas

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