Re: The ConTeXt book

Re: The ConTeXt book

[Michael Saunders]

> > 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
>
> For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
> bug-reports (with minimal example of course).

In some other venue?

> P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the threads.

Gmail.  This is broken?

> > 2. leftward protrusion fails
> > \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
> > \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> > \showgrid  % or \showframe
> > There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
> > is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:
> >
> Don't know what you mean, works here.
>
> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
>
> \usetypescript[modern]
> \setupbodyfont[modern]

The only difference I see is that I'm trying to use a different font
than modern:

 \usetypescriptfile[type-garamond]
\starttypescript [MTbook]
    \definetypeface[MTbook][rm][serif][garamondMD][optical]
...
\stoptypescript

\usetypescript[MTbook]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\setupbodyfont[MTbook,12pt]

So, leftward protrusion only works with Latin Modern?


> > 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
> > Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.
> >
> You have to enable it separate for notes.

> \setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]

I got rightward protrusion with that, but it looks like no hz.
Why are the key-values different?  I also tried {quality,quality} and
got nothing.

> > 5. footnotes break between pages
> > How do I stop this?
> >
> No example, no help!

Imagine:

<one page full of lorem ipsum... containing \footnote{half-page of
lorem ipsum...} >

The footnote will begin on page one, break halfway through, and
continue on the following page.  I want to prevent footnotes from
breaking in this way.
If you really need to see 1.5 pages of concrete "lorem ipsum" posted
to understand the problem, I can provide it.

> > 9. \raisebox?
> > What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
> > ...

> \raisebox{1ex}{?}

When I try:

\raisebox{1ex}{--}

Context stops on the error:

"A <box> was supposed to be here

\raisebox{1ex}{
		--}"

>
> What should ConTeXt do when your font doesn't provide the allcaps feature.

Some of the punctuation (e.g., hyphens, en- and em-dashes) should be
raised slightly and perhaps given a little extra spacing.  The feature
is in my serif font, but not in my sans, hence my effort to correct
this.

> > 10.  problematic characters in grid typesetting.
> > Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
> > notch.  Is there a better way to deal with this?
> >
> You can change the height/depth ratio of a line.
> \setupinterlinespace[height=0.6,depth=0.4]

I must remember to put that convenient command before every majescule Q.


By the way---I am thrilled to hear of and very eager to see Idris's book!

> But maybe a select audience of test-able volunteers will be the way to go...

I volunteer to be testable.

> Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
> are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.

I'm pursuing it with the hope of more beautiful results, but I'm not
getting my problems solved here so far.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:

>>> 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
>>
>> For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
>> bug-reports (with minimal example of course).
>
> In some other venue?

In a separate thread, with a minimal example, that one can copy-paste and 
see the error. Trying to guess what is wrong is difficult.

>> P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the threads.
>
> Gmail.  This is broken?

For some reason, none of your responses contain a References: header. So, 
threading gets broken. Normally, gmail works fine, so I don't know why the 
headers are beings stripped in this case.

>>> 2. leftward protrusion fails
>>> \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
>>> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
>>> \showgrid  % or \showframe
>>> There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
>>> is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:
>>>
>> Don't know what you mean, works here.
>>
>> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
>>
>> \usetypescript[modern]
>> \setupbodyfont[modern]
>
> The only difference I see is that I'm trying to use a different font
> than modern:
>
> \usetypescriptfile[type-garamond]
> \starttypescript [MTbook]
>    \definetypeface[MTbook][rm][serif][garamondMD][optical]
> ...

These details are important. Also a link to which Garamond you are using.

> \stoptypescript
>
> \usetypescript[MTbook]
> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> \setupbodyfont[MTbook,12pt]
>
> So, leftward protrusion only works with Latin Modern?
>
>
>>> 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
>>> Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.
>>>
>> You have to enable it separate for notes.
>
>> \setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]
>
> I got rightward protrusion with that, but it looks like no hz.
> Why are the key-values different? I also tried {quality,quality} and
> got nothing.

Again, a minimal example is needed.

>>> 5. footnotes break between pages
>>> How do I stop this?
>>>
>> No example, no help!
>
> Imagine:
>
> <one page full of lorem ipsum... containing \footnote{half-page of
> lorem ipsum...} >
>
> The footnote will begin on page one, break halfway through, and
> continue on the following page.  I want to prevent footnotes from
> breaking in this way.
> If you really need to see 1.5 pages of concrete "lorem ipsum" posted
> to understand the problem, I can provide it.

I don't know this

>>> 9. \raisebox?
>>> What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
>>> ...
>
>> \raisebox{1ex}{?}
>
> When I try:
>
> \raisebox{1ex}{--}
>
> Context stops on the error:
>
> "A <box> was supposed to be here
>
> \raisebox{1ex}{
> 		--}"

Provide a box :-) \raisebox{1ex}{\hbox{--}} (untested)


>> Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
>> are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.
>
> I'm pursuing it with the hope of more beautiful results, but I'm not
> getting my problems solved here so far.

http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=minxampl

Aditya
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 04.04.10 02:39, schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>>>> 9. \raisebox?
>>>> What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just 
>>>> spent ...
>>> \raisebox{1ex}{?}
>> When I try:
>>
>> \raisebox{1ex}{--}
>>
>> Context stops on the error:
>>
>> "A <box> was supposed to be here
>>
>> \raisebox{1ex}{
>>         --}"
> Provide a box :-) \raisebox{1ex}{\hbox{--}} (untested)
It's \raisebox{1ex}\hbox{--} but I think I should apologize to Michael
for not remembering the right syntax of each ConTeXt command and make
him waste some of his precious time.

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alain Delmotte]

Gour a écrit :
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 16:03:34 +0200
>   
>>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:
>>>>>>>               
>
> Alain> Can you read a sentence in full and not always cut out what
> Alain> doesn't interest you, or should I mark every word as important?
>
> Excuse me...it's my mistake...I had to enclose my sentence in:
>
> \startirony
> ...
> \endirony
>
> :-)
>   
And I get an error for a
\flameoff (without corresponding \flameon)

Regards,

Alain
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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>   

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Marcin Borkowski]

Dnia Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 08:51:03AM -0500, Michael Saunders napisał(a):
> Because I think it might be possible to produce better output with
> Context than with LaTeX (is this true?).  My experience has been quite
> different from yours.  I got up an running with LaTeX in a week (in
> 1995), found the documentation clear and almost any effect I wanted
> easy to achieve with well-documented packages that never seriously
> conflicted.  This, on the other hand, is a nightmare.

Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.

A few examples: tikz (for some obscure reason) breaks some functionality
of empheq; align in intertext in align (yes, I needed something like
this!) in AMS-LaTeX doesn't work; hacking the (otherwise excellent)
amsrefs package (or any AMS-LaTeX package, for that matter) is a real
pain, but sometimes you just need it (for example, amsthm may be a
standard, but it just sucks in quite a few respects!).

============

My general thought on this discussion: someone said "why don't people
switch from LaTeX to ConTeXt if ConTeXt is better?".  The answer is
obvious to me.  First: 99% maths journals accept LaTeX, \epsilon of them
(if any) accept ConTeXt.  Second: people still use their LaTeX 2.09
preambles from the nineties, and spending even 30 minutes on learning a
new package (or just not using $$ ... $$ but \[ ... \] or anything)
seems impossible for them.  Third: sadly, nearly anyone just does not
care whether the results are beautiful or ugly; people (I'm talking
about mathematicians now) use (La|AMS|Con)TeX(t) not because it is
better than (word|OO), but because that is what journals want.

Personally, I use both LaTeX and ConTeXt: LaTeX when I need something
done quickly or when I want to share some code with others (who usually
use LaTeX), and ConTeXt when I have some time and want to learn
something new (or when I have a ready template which *just works(TM)*.)

Cheers

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 490 bytes --]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 16:03:34 +0200
>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:

Alain> Can you read a sentence in full and not always cut out what
Alain> doesn't interest you, or should I mark every word as important?

Excuse me...it's my mistake...I had to enclose my sentence in:

\startirony
...
\endirony

:-)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 3:49, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>> encoding
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible
> with pure tex code

who cares about that? will you then start using latex commands instead? 
and i'm pretty sure that although it might sound similar that the 
appeoached are different

>> font management
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?

again a macro package specific problem; in context we have namespaces 
already for a long time and it works ok

and believe me, there's not much to share .. it's way more easy for me 
write code from scratch in a context way

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 3:42, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>
>>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>>
>>>
>>> \usemodule[latex]
>>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>>
>>
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
> encoding
> font management
> name space to avoid macro collision

well, latex and context differ fundamentally and i'm not going to waste 
time on making things that can be shared (the font stuff is an exception 
and i only do the plain part; there might be more plain modules 
eventually); just look at the mp to pdf code ... you don't want to know 
what i had to do over time to keep it running in all macro packages

and, as said the approach, interfaces, integratin of latex is so 
different that it makes no sense either; of course if i'm paid well i 
can consider making generic derivates but that's unlikely to happen

my energy goes in context. (period)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 2:56, Gour wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte<esperanto@swing.be>  wrote:
>
> Alain>  I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
> Alain>  he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
> Alain>  use.
>
> So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
> users on the same level or maybe decrease it?

i think it's hard to draw conclusions .. for instance if someone has to 
use tex once for a thesis he counts as user but will never use tex again 
probably

i've seen my share of tex users and am pretty convinced that many users 
on this list are non standard in the sense that they like to make their 
own look and feel (contrary to using say latex for a one shot document 
in a prescribed style) .. in that sense i think that the crowd here is 
not the majority of tex users but definitely using it in advanced ways 
... just look at mkiv ... i'm really pleased that so many use it already 
which helps us a lot with developing luatex as well

Hans


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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 16:16, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>>>            
>> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
>> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
>> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env>  end for
>> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
>>      
> Lua  can be more effective than TeX here ?
>    
Lua can't do anything with conflicts at the user level.

For a LaTeX module you can do something like

\begin{env} -> \??lm:begin:env
\end{env} -> \??lm:end:env
>>> encoding are gone
>>>        
>>   Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
>>      
> I care only unicode utf-8
>    
This wasn't the question ;)

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:51, schrieb Michael Saunders:
> 2. leftward protrusion fails
> \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> \showgrid  % or \showframe
> There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
> is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:
>    
Don't know what you mean, works here.

\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]

\usetypescript[modern]
\setupbodyfont[modern]

\showframe

\starttext

\startbuffer
«text»\par
„text“\par
T\par
J\par
\stopbuffer

\getbuffer\setupalign[hanging]\getbuffer

\stoptext
> 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
> Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.
>    
You have to enable it separate for notes.

\setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]
> 5. footnotes break between pages
> How do I stop this?
>    
No example, no help!
> 9. \raisebox?
> What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
> a lot of trial and error to find this:
> \inframed[frame=off,offset=.5pt,height=17.3pt]{--}
> to raise my en-dashes a little when \setff{ac} (for all caps) didn't
> work with one font.
>    
\raisebox{1ex}{–}

What should ConTeXt do when your font doesn't provide the allcaps feature.
> 10.  problematic characters in grid typesetting.
> Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
> notch.  Is there a better way to deal with this?
>    
You can change the height/depth ratio of a line.

\setupinterlinespace[height=0.6,depth=0.4]

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Peter Münster]

On Sat, Apr 03 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:

> > > That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> > > basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> > > can't, but there is no way to find out.
> >
> > Could you please provide a typical example?
> 
> Here are ten:

Hello Michael,

Thanks, I see clearer now (my understanding of "basic" was different...).


> 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:

For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
bug-reports (with minimal example of course).

Cheers, Peter

P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the
threads.

-- 
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
> like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts)
yes, exactly what I'm thinking.

>and the information you
> need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
> since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12
>
>  {
>   designsize=120,
>   familyname="latinmodernroman",
:
>   width="normal",
>  },
again yes

>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
Lua  can be more effective than TeX here ?

>>encoding are gone
>  Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
I care only unicode utf-8

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:56, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} ->  \enableregime[latin1]
>>>        
> encoding are gone
>    
Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and 
mac) are gone.

Wolfgang
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alain Delmotte]

Hi!

Gour a écrit :
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>   
>>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:
>>>>>>>               
>
> Alain> I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
> Alain> he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
> Alain> use.
>
> So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
> users on the same level or maybe decrease it?
>   
Can you read a sentence in full and not always cut out what doesn't 
interest you, or should I mark every word as important?
I did write "will not automatically", I didn't say that books will leave 
the number of users on the same level.
> Alain> What is more important: having a very good program and wait for
> Alain> its documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy
> Alain> program???
>
> (user) docs brings new users...
> (dev) docs brings new devs...
> (some) users become devs...
> (more) devs increases bus-factor... 
>   
Sure, once you have a full operational system!
(user) docs brings new users.... who get problems from bugs or 
unfinished program... users drop out! No more devs, no more need for books!!
And the publishers will thing like this!

Alain
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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>
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>   

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:53, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> font managemen
>> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
>> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>>      
> these ones
>    
The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts) and the information you
need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12

   {
    designsize=120,
    familyname="latinmodernroman",
    filename="lmroman12-regular.otf",
    fontname="lmroman12regular",
    format="otf",
    fullname="lmroman12regular",
    maxsize=140,
    minsize=110,
    modifiers="12regular",
    rawname="LMRoman12-Regular",
    style="normal",
    subfamily="regular",
    variant="normal",
    weight="normal",
    width="normal",
   },

>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>        
>> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
>>      
> tex macros
>    
Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments

For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
\end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:53 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
encoding are gone
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>>
>>
>> encoding
>>
>
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible with
> pure tex code
>>
>> font management
>>
>
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
these ones

>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
tex macros

-- 
luigi
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The ConTeXt book

[Michael Saunders]

Wolfgang:

Thanks---I'll go over what I can of those this weekend and get back to
you and Taco about them in a few days.

Peter:

> > That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> > basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> > can't, but there is no way to find out.
>
> Could you please provide a typical example?

Here are ten:

1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
\setupcolumns[n=2,rule=off,distance=20pt]
\setupinmargin[style=\ss,align=outer]
\startcolumns
text text \inmargin{text} text
\stopcolumns
The marginal notes always print to the left of the column.  This works
perfectly for the left column, but fails for the right column---they
overprint the text of the left column.

2. leftward protrusion fails
\definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\showgrid  % or \showframe
There is no leftward protrusion at all.  Everything on the left edge
is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'.  Similarly:

3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
Even on the right edge.  Hz isn't happening in them either.

4. interactive headers/footers
I'd like to make my header and footer texts hyperlinks to the head
that they point to.  I'm trying this:

\setupinteraction[state=start,color=darkgreen,contrastcolor=darkred]
\setupinteractionscreen[option=fit,view=fit]

\newcommand{\gmpt}{\getmarking[pt]}
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\gmpt]}}
\setupfootertexts[margin][\rlap\swpt\hfill][\hfill\llap{\getmarking[chapter]}]

(By the way, I'm resorting to this misdirection with the \newcommands
only because Context gives me an error whenever it finds nested
brackets.  E.g.,
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\getmarking[pt]]}}
would fail.)

Then, at the beginning of a part, I have to add the extra marking to
carry the reference in the 'pt' marker (right?), e.g.:

\part[pt:one]{One}\marking[pt]{pt:one}

But this does not work.  (By the way, all of this \defineXYZ,
\setupXYZ, \XYZ stuff is confusing.  It seems like there is some kind
of purpose to this pattern of naming, but I can't find what it is.)

So, I experimented:
{\about[pt:one]}
(a particular reference) works
{\about[\gmpt]}
(referring through the marking) fails---so I can find no automatic way
of doing it.

(By the way, why are my footnote markers all green---shouldn't they be
red?  could I make them black?  Why does clicking on them sometimes
send me to a random page?)

5. footnotes break between pages
How do I stop this?

6. hyphenation between pages.
How do I stop this?

7. opening state
I'd like my document to open in Adobe reader showing one page at a
time (as if "click to open one page at at time" had been pressed).

8. description
I spent the evening trying to get \definedescription to set a
description on a line of its own followed by an explanatory paragraph.
 I tried most of the keys/values.  I never got anything that looked
good, let alone close to what I wanted.  Finally, I spent a few
seconds writing a humble LaTeX-esque line:
\newcommand{\defhead}{\switchtobodyfont[gillSB,12pt]\ss}
\newcommand{\desclist}[2]{\crlf{\noindent\defhead #1\emspace#2}\crlf}
that did the job.

9. \raisebox?
What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text?  I just spent
a lot of trial and error to find this:
\inframed[frame=off,offset=.5pt,height=17.3pt]{--}
to raise my en-dashes a little when \setff{ac} (for all caps) didn't
work with one font.

10.  problematic characters in grid typesetting.
Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
notch.  Is there a better way to deal with this?


> > switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
> > try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> > back to LaTeX.
>
> Why do you?

Because I think it might be possible to produce better output with
Context than with LaTeX (is this true?).  My experience has been quite
different from yours.  I got up an running with LaTeX in a week (in
1995), found the documentation clear and almost any effect I wanted
easy to achieve with well-documented packages that never seriously
conflicted.  This, on the other hand, is a nightmare.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>      
> encoding
>    
\usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]

and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible 
with pure tex code
> font management
>    
i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
> name space to avoid macro collision
>    
tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>
>
> And what's with the Lua part you want?
encoding
font management
name space to avoid macro collision
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>      
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>    
And what's with the Lua part you want?

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>
> Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.
>
> However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
> LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
> had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
> able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).
The interesting part for me is that most of lua code is already here
in some form.
BTW luaLaTeX team is up and running these days, I'm following it
because this year EUROTEX meeting will be in Italy where latex
community is strong
(almost like ConTeXt Italian community of course :-) )
and humanist-oriented .

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).

Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.

However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
\usemodule[latex]
and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 816 bytes --]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:

Alain> I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
Alain> he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
Alain> use.

So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
users on the same level or maybe decrease it?

Alain> What is more important: having a very good program and wait for
Alain> its documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy
Alain> program???

(user) docs brings new users...
(dev) docs brings new devs...
(some) users become devs...
(more) devs increases bus-factor... 


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Andrea Valle]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1387 bytes --]

the 2 cents of a lurker :)

> if the knowledge is in my head, how come that wolfgang can answer  
> most questions (and if he couldn't we'd have a real problem as at  
> least i have not more time)


Actually, I don't need so much documentation (well, it's never enough  
indeed), I'd say I need a tutorial to be able to know how to get  
documentation.
Maybe how to browse code source.

This is just my experience, for what it worth: I always find very good  
recipes, and fast help by this wonderful list on specific topics, but  
I don't feel to be able to really generalize my knowledge.
It's easy to have good stuff with ConTeXt, much more complicated to  
make it do what you want.
Maybe I just need some good lectures I missed. So maybe I need pointers.


Best and thanks for your work


-a-

--------------------------------------------------
Andrea Valle
--------------------------------------------------
CIRMA - DAMS
Università degli Studi di Torino
--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
--> andrea.valle@unito.it
--------------------------------------------------
" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a  
lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)




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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Graham Douglas]

Taco wrote:
==============
Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.

I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
manual is not the correct person to proofread it.

The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.

Best wishes,
Taco
====================

Hi Taco

Just a few words of encouragement :-)

You can be assured that the reference manual is definitely not going
unused. In my current quest to learn LuaTeX I refer to it almost
daily. Just for the record, I work in scientific publishing but my 
interest in LuaTeX is purely and completely personal and not at all
related to my "day job".

I too would be willing to help "improve" the manual, especially to
help clarify issues which may be difficult for a beginner (like me!) to
understand. I have some ideas for additional material which could help 
to link or bridge a number of key topics/concepts in order to better 
understand the "architecture" of LuaTeX. Sort of "glue material".

You are absolutely right to say that, as the person writing the code, it 
is extremely difficult to be the one solely responsible for preparing 
the manual. Apart from anything, with such a pround and in-depth 
knowledge of the innards of TeX it must be extremely difficult for you 
to step back and take the perspective of someone who is just stating 
out. And, frankly, writing documentation of any sort can be pretty dull.
Furthermore, I think that we'd all benefit from you spending most of 
your time doing what you do best: cutting the code!

As someone very new to LuaTeX, I also want to thank you again for the
tremendous work you are doing.

Do please contact me by personal e-mail to discuss the above in more
detail, should you wish to do so.

Warm wishes

Graham









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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alain Delmotte]

Hi!

Gour a écrit :

03/04 13:42

> Taco> The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create
> Taco> more users (nor even automatically create readers, for that
> Taco> matter).
>
> Hmm, interesting...
>
> If even you think that ConTeXt books are not important (to bring new
> users), then no wonder we do not have even a single one...

I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important; he just said that the books will not automatically increase the use.

03/04 14:13
> However, it might be that ConTeXt prefer to always stay niche-product
> and to, as Haskellers say: "Avoid success at all costs.” :-)
>   
Do you know many software in development for which there are plenty of 
books.

Further the accusation of somes other that Hans is keeping information 
for his work and not documenting it is shocking me.
Hans said that he did develop ConTeXt for *his* work and then opened it 
to others to benefit.
And Hans is working for the ConTeXt users free and would prefer, I 
think, to use his "secret!!?" tools and go on for his real work.

I also regret that the documentation is not complete and updated for 
mkiv, but mkiv is still in development even if it is operational (but 
Hans suggest to use mkii for professional work).

Many people here who complain about documentation, also quickly say that 
they do not have time to write the asked for book: they have other 
things on the fire!! just... like Hans who is developing ConTeXt and do 
not have time writing documentation.
What is more important: having a very good program and wait for its 
documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy program???

Thanks to those who develop ConTeXt and answer the questions.

Have a good Eastern time

Alain

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 11:23, Michael Saunders wrote:

> That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> can't, but there is no way to find out.  If the claims that Context is
> better really aren't empty, I would expect a lot of people to switch,
> but I imagine 99% of them are in the same boat I'm in---trying to
> switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
> try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> back to LaTeX.

why should users switch .. if something works ok there need to be good 
reasons

> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key:  it can be
> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
> only of benefit to Pragma.  (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
> in the code and wonder about.)

context being commercial? it's costing us more than it brings in and 
always had .. and as all code is public and most of the things that can 
be done are no secret (e.g. showed at user group meetings)

the snippets of code that i referred to are simply too obscure to 
document (and i tend to remove them) .. actually some experimental code 
is being used and might evolve

now concerning documentation, you should explain one thing:

- a working day has 8 hours
- add to that weekends and evenings
- consider that writing code takes time
- and answering mails too
- and visiting user group meetings and doing talks there
- and writing some miminal documentation (or history docs or articles)

it looks to me that you're one of the few who either cannot imagine how 
much time i (and taco and others) spent on something free and still have 
some time left for our normal job as wel as some social time

but maybe i should settle on me being too imperfect and inefficient and 
needing 16 hours instead of 8 which leaves me no time for writing 
manuals (which would be bad anyway)

> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book.  The knowledge
> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
> communicate it.   It's evident that they either can't or won't.

if the knowledge is in my head, how come that wolfgang can answer most 
questions (and if he couldn't we'd have a real problem as at least i 
have not more time)

> I really would like to see the quality of computer typesetting
> advance, and I was hopeful at hearing about Luatex/Context.   I'd love
> to see Context produce better output more easily than LaTeX, but so
> far I'm putting a lot of effort into it to get some very disappointing
> results.   One might place some hope in a future (21st c.?) LaTeX 3
> based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
> works, and it seems doubtful that would ever happen.

well, it has been expressed several times (also at user group meetings) 
that latex will not use luatex or at least not the lua in tex ... all 
efforts with respect to that are personal initiatives

> For now I'm sticking with Context because I still hope there might be
> some value in it, but it's hard to find.

ok

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Peter Münster]

On Sat, Apr 03 2010, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> LuaTeX is documented very thoroughly. The manual is 180 pages and as far
> as I can see it mentions and describes every aspect of the API.

Moreover it seems that Taco keeps it always in sync with the code!
Cheers, Peter

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Peter Münster]

On Sat, Apr 03 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:

> That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> can't, but there is no way to find out.

Could you please provide a typical example?


> switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
> try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> back to LaTeX.

Why do you?
Personal experience: in 2003 I switched from LaTeX to ConTeXt, nearly from
one day to the other, and since then without ever missing LaTeX (ok, only
very rarely ... ;)

Cheers, Peter

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 1:48, Gour wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>
> Hello Hans,
>
> Hans>  you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
> Hans>  whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
> Hans>  the active tex lists
>
> I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
> paint that picture...
>
> Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
> when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404

i've been sent worse examples, like "context is just plain tex" or 
"context is a package for latex"  or "context cannot do math" or ...
also "luatex is not going to succees" or "luatex is a bad idea" or ...



Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 12:54, Andreas Schneider wrote:
> Michael Saunders wrote:
>
>> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key:  it can be
>> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
>> only of benefit to Pragma.  (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
>> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
>> in the code and wonder about.)
>
> If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make the contrary
> observation. There are countless cases where Hans, Taco or Wolfgang
> implement some features to fulfill a request of a user. Nearly every time I
> had a question/problem, a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite
> impressive imho.
> That also means that many solutions can be found by searching the mailing
> list archives ... not few things are also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the
> very basic problems, the "old" manuals still mostly apply.
>
> I do think that it would be pretty awesome to have a central up-to-date
> documentation which I could also recommend to other people I try to convince
> to use ConTeXt instead of Word, Writer or LaTeX. But at least for my
> personal needs I find answers to most of my questions already.

it could be a user effort to document the new stuff posted on the list

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 14:14, schrieb Michael Saunders:
> I've been trying to be more constructive than saying  'it sucks'.
> I'm not complaining just to complain---I want to get the most I can
> out of the software.   Please point me to a rewritten chapter you
> would like me to look at and I will give it a try.
>    
- 
http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-typography.pdf
- http://context.aanhet.net/svn/contextman/context-reference/en/co-fonts.pdf

Wolfgang

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The ConTeXt book

[Michael Saunders]

Taco:

>> Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
>> enormously.
...
> Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
> interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
> simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
> about it.
...
> The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
> complainers are in it just for the complaining.

I've been trying to be more constructive than saying  'it sucks'.
I'm not complaining just to complain---I want to get the most I can
out of the software.   Please point me to a rewritten chapter you
would like me to look at and I will give it a try.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2209 bytes --]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:54:18 +0200
>>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Schneider <aksdb@gmx.de> wrote:

Hello Andreas,

Andreas> If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make
Andreas> the contrary observation. There are countless cases where
Andreas> Hans, Taco or Wolfgang implement some features to fulfill a
Andreas> request of a user. Nearly every time I had a question/problem,
Andreas> a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite impressive
Andreas> imho. That also means that many solutions can be found by
Andreas> searching the mailing list archives ... not few things are
Andreas> also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the very basic problems,
Andreas> the "old" manuals still mostly apply.

Thank you for your post. You are touching one of the very important
aspects of ConTeXt which lot of people here do not or does not want to
understand...

I'm not the one who is living typography or for whom typesetting
and/or writing books is bread & butter...When I did two books some
years ago I was not confident I could make it due to the lack of
up-to-date docs.

I picked two LaTeX books (Kopka/Daly & Companion) which helped me to
publish the books using LaTeX/LyX and I helped the project by sending
donation as well as put credit in the book for all the tools which I
used. (These days I'm TUG member and give some modest donation for TeX
Gyre and LuaTeX projects.)

So, the main variable in equation here is: TIME!

I simply do not have time to research mailing lists, wikis etc. to
find about the 'application', but prefer to buy the book (I'm book guy
accustomed to learn from books) and read it afk to learn basic things.

Then, I might get into mailing list, IRC, forums etc. when faced with
very specific problems.

That's the reason, I believe, why many people are buying books - to
quickly get 'in action' as Manning publishers explain their book
series.

However, it might be that ConTeXt prefer to always stay niche-product
and to, as Haskellers say: "Avoid success at all costs.” :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Vedran Miletić]

2010/4/3 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
> interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
> simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
> about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
> documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.
>
> I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
> well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
> true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
> manual is not the correct person to proofread it.
>
> The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
> complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
> demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
> at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
> many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
> end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.

I'm more than willing to proofread it and offer suggestions, and I'm
pretty certain I'm not the only one.

Regards,

-- 
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 11:47, schrieb Vedran Miletić:
>>> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-
>> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>>      
> Wow!
>
> Any documentation on what it supports?
>    
http://dl.contextgarden.net/modules/t-latex/tex/context/third/latex/latextest.tex

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 11:20, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>>      
> what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?
>    
1. The LaTeX module is from Brooks Moses, not me.

2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?

Wolfgang
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1574 bytes --]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

Hello Hans,

Hans> you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
Hans> whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
Hans> the active tex lists

I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
paint that picture...

Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404

Hans> also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard'
Hans> soon after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are
Hans> only two main macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes
Hans> surprises me that eventually we made it to this stage

I offer my deepest respect for your work and tireless enthusiasm.

Hans> as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by
Hans> lamport

Nobody expects that you write the book...

Hans> anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up

That's very nice to hear...much better than some other replies in this
thread. ;)

Hans> there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know
Hans> the source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about
Hans> that

OK. We hope there won't be need for the proof in practice.


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Michael Saunders wrote:
>>
>> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
>> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
>> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book.  The knowledge
>> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
>> communicate it.   It's evident that they either can't or won't.
> 
> Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
> enormously.

I'll elaborate a bit (excuse me for replying to myself).

Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.

I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
manual is not the correct person to proofread it.

The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 966 bytes --]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:54:54 +0200
>>>>>> "Taco" == Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

Taco> Granted, often the first (and sometimes the best) books are by
Taco> the inventors, but the *number* of books on a subject just gives
Taco> an indication of the book market size, nothing more.

Well, I used example of jQuery which is hot for me atm, but I could
say Django as well or something.

Why do you think the books about different projects are written &
bought? It's not novel-market...

Taco> The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create
Taco> more users (nor even automatically create readers, for that
Taco> matter).

Hmm, interesting...

If even you think that ConTeXt books are not important (to bring new
users), then no wonder we do not have even a single one...


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 689 bytes --]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:47:44 +0200
>>>>>> "Mojca" == Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

Mojca> > You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!
Mojca> 
Mojca> I really love that answer :) :) :) And it's definitely true.

I'm really sad to receive such foolish answers here. :-(

What do you think why I'm subscribed to the ntg-context list at the
first place?

Moreover, by inspecting X-Newsreader: header in my message you could
deduce that I most probably do not use OS for which MS-Word is
available...


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

Michael Saunders wrote:
> 
> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book.  The knowledge
> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
> communicate it.   It's evident that they either can't or won't.

Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
enormously.




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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Andreas Schneider]

Michael Saunders wrote:

> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key:  it can be
> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
> only of benefit to Pragma.  (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
> in the code and wonder about.)

If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make the contrary 
observation. There are countless cases where Hans, Taco or Wolfgang 
implement some features to fulfill a request of a user. Nearly every time I 
had a question/problem, a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite 
impressive imho.
That also means that many solutions can be found by searching the mailing 
list archives ... not few things are also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the 
very basic problems, the "old" manuals still mostly apply.

I do think that it would be pretty awesome to have a central up-to-date 
documentation which I could also recommend to other people I try to convince 
to use ConTeXt instead of Word, Writer or LaTeX. But at least for my 
personal needs I find answers to most of my questions already.

Best Regards,
Andreas.

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Vedran Miletić]

2010/4/3 Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>:
> Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
>>
>> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>>
>
> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>
> Wolfgang

Wow!

Any documentation on what it supports?

-- 
Vedran Miletić
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hi Michael,

> based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
> works

LuaTeX is documented very thoroughly. The manual is 180 pages and as far as I can see it mentions and describes every aspect of the API. I am not saying that from the reference manual alone I understand every detail (every now and then I need to ask a question on the mailinglist), but that is a different subject as TeX itself is rather complex (you need knowledge about glue and boxes for example).

Patrick

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The ConTeXt book

[Michael Saunders]

"This is the project which has only 5 or 6 users. Who actually uses
it? Use LaTeX!"

That's the feeling I'm getting.  I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
basic things in Context.  Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
can't, but there is no way to find out.  If the claims that Context is
better really aren't empty, I would expect a lot of people to switch,
but I imagine 99% of them are in the same boat I'm in---trying to
switch and finding it practically impossible.   I imagine many people
try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
back to LaTeX.

Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key:  it can be
free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
only of benefit to Pragma.  (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
in the code and wonder about.)

Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book.  The knowledge
is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
communicate it.   It's evident that they either can't or won't.

I really would like to see the quality of computer typesetting
advance, and I was hopeful at hearing about Luatex/Context.   I'd love
to see Context produce better output more easily than LaTeX, but so
far I'm putting a lot of effort into it to get some very disappointing
results.   One might place some hope in a future (21st c.?) LaTeX 3
based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
works, and it seems doubtful that would ever happen.

For now I'm sticking with Context because I still hope there might be
some value in it, but it's hard to find.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>    
http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/3 Gour <gour@gour-nitai.com>:
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

The answer is true if you only have to write articles for scientific
journals - AFAIK there is no major one accepting Context input.

Get AMS or ACM to accept Context and you will see books soon.

Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 7:37, Gour wrote:

> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list whih 
makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of the active 
tex lists

also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard' soon 
after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are only two main 
macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes surprises me that 
eventually we made it to this stage

also, quite some developments originate and relate to the context 
community which might also be a good sign

as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by lamport

also, even today i see books show up that cover the same topics every 
time so it looks like none of the books is the definitive answer

anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up

> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)

there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know the 
source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about that

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 08:47, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
>>
>> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
>> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
>> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
>
> You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!

I really love that answer :) :) :) And it's definitely true. Much more
true than the ConTeXt-to-LaTeX ratio :)

ConTeXt has a bus-factor of 1. Well, if you ask me, the whole LaTeX
core has bus-factor 0 (apart from some well-maintaned packages; and
even those packages usually have bus-factor just a tiny fraction above
1; including TikZ, tex4ht, ...). If you want full support and more
guarantee with a higher bus-factor, you should better choose Adobe or
Microsoft products and I really mean it. For me it's just fun to
browse the sources from time to time ...

It is definitely true that a manual is needed (everyone agrees with
that), but you need to keep in mind that Hans makes a living with what
he does and we can be extremely happy that he releases ConTeXt
publically at all (he could just as well keep it in private for
himself and his company). Writing a good manual could easily take
one-man-year or more, so if some company is willing to pay him for
that, he (or some other almost-developer) would probably do it.

What nobody here realizes that main developers of jQuery or any other
tools probably don't answer dozens of mails daily to beginners'
questions on the mailing lists.

As already said: anyone is free to start writing a manual by himself.
People to help will join later ... Just start.

Mojca
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

Gour wrote:
> 
> Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
> Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! 
> 
> Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
> the April's 1st joke. :-(

> If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...

Personally, I think it is a sad joke that I started a community project
to update the reference manual after a lot of complaints about the
documentation but over four years down the road the actual community
turns out to have a population closely approximating one.

> At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
> several books to choose from. 

If you could convince mozilla to adopt ConTeXt, I am sure there would
be a lot of books within half a year. Have a closer look on books on
'hot topics' like jQuery and you'll see that almost none of these
books are written by the inventors themselves. Granted, often the first
(and sometimes the best) books are by the inventors, but the *number*
of books on a subject just gives an indication of the book market size,
nothing more.

> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create more
users (nor even automatically create readers, for that matter).

> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)

The answer to this question is quite obvious if you have read Douglas
Adams' books: the bus will think about the impact of its actions on the
universe for a moment. Then, deeply immersed in gut-wrenching shame,
it will travel back in time half a minute and push its own breaks for
an emergency stop.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
> 
> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
> 

You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!

Alan
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1165 bytes --]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:32:50 -0500
>>>>>> "Russell" == Russell Urquhart <russurquhart1@verizon.net> wrote:

Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! 

Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
the April's 1st joke. :-(

If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...

At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
several books to choose from. Being a 'book' guy, it's hard to find
any significant project without either up-to-date manual or some books
available, and I definitely consider that ConTeXt could be one.

However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
about it...)

 
Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Russell Urquhart]

As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! I would have loved to have been able to contribute a little to such a good effort!

Russ
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Matthias Weber]

Yes, that's indeed good to know. My MAIN problem with mkiv is that I  
can't get interaction bars working. I posted two basic setups a while  
ago,
and while they work fine in mkii, they fail in mkiv. Never got a  
response ...


Matthias


On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>>
>>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not  
>>> that bad;
>>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>>
>> Good to know :)
>>
>> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
>> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
>> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
>> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
>> code?
>
> the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so  
> we can go beyond what normal tex can do
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>
>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>
> Good to know :)
>
> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
> code?

the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so we 
can go beyond what normal tex can do

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Patrick Gundlach]

> As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
> for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
> minutes. :)


:-) Actually my load average goes down from 2.3 to 1.0 currently and probably down to 0.5 next week, so I hope not to push my deadline by more then 14 days.

Patrick

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

John Haltiwanger wrote:

> Re: documentation,
> 
> Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
> where we do a command by command description of what different macros
> accomplish? 

As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
minutes. :)

The main idea behind that planned move is that the wiki is a much
friendlier editing environment than texshow-web, thereby increasing
the chances of people contributing better descriptions and examples.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[John Haltiwanger]

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync

Good to know :)

I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
code?

Re: documentation,

Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
where we do a command by command description of what different macros
accomplish? (Apologies if I'm mincing terminologies here). Starting
with the undocumented ones, but then working back and providing a bit
of insight into use cases, such as what 'middle' may mean in a given
instance, or that it's the best/required option (this point is still
fuzzy to me). The command ref is just not insightful at my level of
TeX.

The thesis case study is concurrent typesetting of itself in HTML,
ODT, and ConTeXt. Part of the idea is to interrogate different
capabilities and comparing the processes between the formats for
accomplishing the same thing (toggle-able sidenotes instead of
footnote/endnote citations in ConTeXt vs HTML, for instance). So in
that sense there should be more tutorial style content available for
the wiki. I'll be pestering the list for help in those areas, I'm
sure.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 13:18, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
> available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
> since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
> significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
> the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
> effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
> or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
> discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
> enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
> mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
> begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
> It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that 
bad; the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[John Haltiwanger]

Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Anyway, just wanted to say that there was to be at least one more
individual offering help. Too bad it turns out to be a joke :/


Regards,
John Haltiwanger


On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
>> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>>
>>>  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
>>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>>
>>>  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>>> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>>> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>>> motivation are also a problem.
>>>
>>>  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
>>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
>>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>>> moving?
>>>
>>>        Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
>>
>> So let's see this year what I have won;
>> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
>> Hans: + beer
>> Arthur: + beer
>> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
>
> but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...
>
>> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..
>
> 5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then before
> you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you have plenty of
> time)
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>  wrote:
>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>
>>   Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>
>>   To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>> motivation are also a problem.
>>
>>   And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>> moving?
>>
>>         Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
> So let's see this year what I have won;
> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
> Hans: + beer
> Arthur: + beer
> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)

but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...

> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..

5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then 
before you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you 
have plenty of time)

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>
>  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
> too much attention to your mail :-]
>
>  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
> motivation are also a problem.
>
>  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
> moving?
>
>        Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
So let's see this year what I have won;
Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
Hans: + beer
Arthur: + beer
Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..


-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
too much attention to your mail :-]

  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
motivation are also a problem.

  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
moving?

	Have a nice Good Friday everyone,

		Arthur
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 1-4-2010 21:38, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

> So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
> one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
> in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
> a translation device on hand (a dictionary).

Ah ... translators ... I remember that we had quite some fun when the 
translator started to make jokes (of couse only for the non french who 
had headsets) ... some on this list who were present might remember the 
"Sorry folks, i cannot translate this yet as i have no clue where this 
gusy is heading and there is sign that he will finish his sentence in 
time." Of course he got an applause afterwards.

Okay, but in general I do have good memories of meetings in France. 
Especially one Gutenberg meeting in a castle: 50% talks and 50% very 
good eating. And of course the famous nice 16th aniversay meeting ...

> So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
> translate it into Dutch.

Ah, great! Because I wanted to give Slovian a try.

Hans


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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Thursday 01 April 2010 19:43:51 Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
> > Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> > afterward?
> 
> that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as
> well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the
> content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember
> eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)
> 
> Hans

That was the early effects of some un-enforceable law carrying the name
of Mr. "All-good" (law Toubon).

I recently organized an international summer school in Corsica
(nice place to hold a summer school) and indeed was contacted by some
obscure association with the aim of defending the French language.
You see, our website was in English (remember, *international* summer school)
and we were "reported" by one of their members. (They had no shame to
say so... kind of reminds one not the very best episodes of recent
French history.)

So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
a translation device on hand (a dictionary).

So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
translate it into Dutch.

Alan
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Graham Douglas]

 >This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
 >to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
 >next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
 >this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
 >getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
 >delegating this task.

This is brilliant news! Perhaps additional funds to support this could
be raised by a Paypal donations account? Or, should the manual be 
"sufficiently stable" at some point to sell hard copies via digital
printing. Sure, we can all print the PDFs but I, for one, am buried
in piles of unwieldy printouts and prefer a proper bound copy, any day.
Printing large ConTeXt docs would be heavy duty work for most
home printers and use lots of ink, so bound hard copies would be quite 
an economic alternative, in my opinion.

Maybe it's my age but I really don't like reading copious amounts of 
documentation on screen, no matter how carefully the PDFs are designed.

A great piece of news indeed.

Warm regards

Graham

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:

> Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> afterward?

that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as 
well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the 
content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember 
eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Sebastien Mengin]

Le 01 avril 2010 à 07:08, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit:
> 	Hello,
> 
>   This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
> 
>   The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
> 
>   Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.

Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
afterward?

I would definitely like to get involved in such a project -- as a
volunteer (proof read or the like...).

Bye,

-- 
Sébastien Mengin
Édition et logiciels libres
< Mise en page avec LaTeX >
http://edilibre.net

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
if so
another beer for me
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

a disposizione.


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>        Hello,
>
>  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
>
>  The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
>
>  Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.
>
>        Cheers,
>
>                Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
>                Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
>                Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>



-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Michail Vidiassov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 142 bytes --]



On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Martin Schröder wrote:

> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

and a good one, one you _want_ to believe...

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/1 Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>:
>  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.

Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

Best
    Martin
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The ConTeXt book

[Arthur Reutenauer]

	Hello,

  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
delegating this task.

  The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!

  Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
like.

	Cheers,

		Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
		Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
		Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
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