10+ reasons why I still use MKII

10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Mojca Miklavec]

Dear Hans,

since you have promissed another hotfix release for TL 2010, here's a
list of issues that I had with my thesis and MKIV (some have already
been fixed in the due time, but many remained). I probably wouldn't
have had those "problems" if I was designing my document in MKIV from
scratch, but just recompiling in MKIV didn't work out for several
reasons listed below.

1.) Minimal example:

\usetypescript[iwona]
\setupbodyfont[iwona]
\starttext
$a+b$
\stoptext

Output:

!define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
!define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
!define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
\*iwona6ptmmmr33*
!define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
!define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
!define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
\*iwona8ptmmmr22*
!define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
!define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
!define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
\*iwona11ptmmmr11*
!define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found

etc. I need to figure out why, though it works (I don't see
deficiencies in output yet).

2.) Recently discussed on the mailing list - stopper has no influence in MKIV:

\setupcaptions[stopper={:}]
\starttext
\placefigure{title}{\framed{bla}}
\stoptext

3.) Bibliography citations give different result with the same setup
(different numbers and different spacing in \placepublication - might
be also worth testing with grid typesetting as I wasn't able to set up
the alignment properly in MKII last time when I have tried). I'm not
sure which one is right, but there's probably no reason to produce
different results.

\usemodule
	[bib]
\setuppublications
	[alternative=num,
	 criterium=all,
	 sorttype=cite]

\starttext
\startpublication[k=a,t=article]\arttitle{a}\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=b,t=article]\arttitle{b}\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=c,t=article]\arttitle{c}\stoppublication

x\cite[a,b,c]

\placepublications
\stoptext

4.) The following problem must have appeared recently (it was working
ok in September): in MKII the encoding is completely screwed up:

\usemodule[gnuplot]
\enableregime[utf-8]

\starttext
\startGNUPLOTscript[integrated risetime]
plot sin(x) t 'šin(čix)'
\stopGNUPLOTscript
\useGNUPLOTgraphic[integrated risetime][1]
\stoptext

A slightly more basic example:

\enableregime[utf-8]
\starttext
\startbuffer[gnu]
\startMPcode
draw \sometxt{čšž};
\stopMPcode
\stopbuffer
čšž
\getbuffer[gnu]
\stoptext

5.) Weird formula number placement when long equations are used in MKIV

\def\oklepaj#1{\left(#1\right)}
\starttext
\placeformula
\startformula
{\dot N}(t)=
  A\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{fast}}}}}+
  B\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{slow}}}}}
\stopformula
\stoptext

6.) I know that \NR is not the most appropriate way to go into next
row, but the following gives considerably different results in MKII
and MKIV:

\starttable[|l|]
\NC \type{a} \NC\NR
\NC \type{a} \NC\NR
\NC \type{a} \NC\NR
\stoptable

7.) I know that there's a longstanding left vs. right bug, but
flushleft is no solution in the following case (compare MKII and MKIV
again):

\definedescription
  [latexdesc]
  [headstyle={\ss\bf},style=normal,align=left,location=hanging,width=fit,margin=0cm]

\latexdesc{step E (expectation):} \input tufte

\latexdesc{step M (maximization):} \input tufte

8.)

\definetypeface [boldmath] [mm] [boldmath] [latin-modern] [default]
\starttext
$\boldsymbol{\theta}$
\stoptext

9.) Note the big difference of when the formula starts vertically on page:

\starttext
\startformula
a+b
\stopformula
\stoptext

10.) Different square root shape/variant used:

$\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$

Original formula:
\startformula
\startcases
  \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
  \NC ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}\exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr),
\NC for $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
\stopcases
\stopformula
but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original
document on a smaller scale.

11.) Missing bibliography entries:

\usemodule[bib]
% this line spoils the show
\setuppublications[alternative=num]

\setuppublicationlayout[webpage]{%
	\inserttitle{\bgroup\it }{\egroup. }{}%
	\inserturl{}{}{}%
}

\startpublication
	[k=FAIR,t=webpage,u=http://www.gsi.de/fair/]
	\biburl{http://www.gsi.de/fair/}
	\title{FAIR -- Facility for Antiproton and Ion Research}
\stoppublication

\starttext
\cite[FAIR]\par
\placepublications
\stoptext

12.) \nocite[nonexistent] generates an empty [n] in bibliography in
MKII, while it has zero effect in MKIV (it should at least generate an
error).

13.) Different spacing

\setupwhitespace[big]
\def\dictentry#1#2{\hbox{\bf#1}\hbox{\hbox to 1em{}\hbox{#2}}\blank[4mm]}
\starttext
\dictentry{clipping}{preboj}
\dictentry{clustering}{gručenje}
\stoptext

14.) Two very weird issues with section alignments, but I'll continue
later - I need some fresh air now.

------
What's the following BEWARE useful for?

systems         : BEWARE: syntex functionality is enabled!


Mojca
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Taco Hoekwater]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 5.) Weird formula number placement when long equations are used in MKIV
> 
> \def\oklepaj#1{\left(#1\right)}
> \starttext
> \placeformula
> \startformula
> {\dot N}(t)=
>   A\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{fast}}}}}+
>   B\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{slow}}}}}
> \stopformula
> \stoptext

This one is a luatex bug. http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=392

Best wishes,
Taco
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

> 1.) Minimal example:
>
> \usetypescript[iwona]
> \setupbodyfont[iwona]
> \starttext
> $a+b$
> \stoptext
>
> Output:
>
> !define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
> !define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
> !define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
> \*iwona6ptmmmr33*
> !define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
> !define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
> !define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
> \*iwona8ptmmmr22*
> !define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
> !define font    : unknown font Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular, loading aborted
> !define font    : unable to define Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular as
> \*iwona11ptmmmr11*
> !define font    : font with name Iwona-Math-Letters-Regular is not found
>
> etc. I need to figure out why, though it works (I don't see
> deficiencies in output yet).

hmm runs ok here ... but as i removed some old iwona stuff from type-otf 
after our mail exchange i'll make a new beta; also math is not defined 
in the typescript but in a lfg file

> 2.) Recently discussed on the mailing list - stopper has no influence in MKIV:
>
> \setupcaptions[stopper={:}]
> \starttext
> \placefigure{title}{\framed{bla}}
> \stoptext

subtle difference:

\setupcaptions[numberstopper={:}]
\starttext
\placefigure{title}{\framed{bla}}
\stoptext

all stopper, separator etc things are now more explicit as we have more 
control

> 3.) Bibliography citations give different result with the same setup
> (different numbers and different spacing in \placepublication - might
> be also worth testing with grid typesetting as I wasn't able to set up
> the alignment properly in MKII last time when I have tried). I'm not
> sure which one is right, but there's probably no reason to produce
> different results.
>
> \usemodule
> 	[bib]
> \setuppublications
> 	[alternative=num,
> 	 criterium=all,
> 	 sorttype=cite]
>
> \starttext
> \startpublication[k=a,t=article]\arttitle{a}\stoppublication
> \startpublication[k=b,t=article]\arttitle{b}\stoppublication
> \startpublication[k=c,t=article]\arttitle{c}\stoppublication
>
> x\cite[a,b,c]
>
> \placepublications
> \stoptext

as i never used citations i don't know what you expect ... best ask 
Thomas what you should expect ... anyway, i'll make a template for the 
xml approach which is more fun

> 4.) The following problem must have appeared recently (it was working
> ok in September): in MKII the encoding is completely screwed up:
>
> \usemodule[gnuplot]
> \enableregime[utf-8]
>
> \starttext
> \startGNUPLOTscript[integrated risetime]
> plot sin(x) t 'šin(čix)'
> \stopGNUPLOTscript
> \useGNUPLOTgraphic[integrated risetime][1]
> \stoptext
>
> A slightly more basic example:
>
> \enableregime[utf-8]
> \starttext
> \startbuffer[gnu]
> \startMPcode
> draw \sometxt{čšž};
> \stopMPcode
> \stopbuffer
> čšž
> \getbuffer[gnu]
> \stoptext

hm, i get a pdf file with

čšž čšž

so what happens at your end?

> 5.) Weird formula number placement when long equations are used in MKIV
>
> \def\oklepaj#1{\left(#1\right)}
> \starttext
> \placeformula
> \startformula
> {\dot N}(t)=
>    A\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{fast}}}}}+
>    B\oklepaj{\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{eksp.}}}}-\exp\oklepaj{-\frac{t-t_0}{τ_{\text{slow}}}}}
> \stopformula
> \stoptext

weird indeed, must be something basis as

$$111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111\normalreqno{!!}$$

also has it .. taco just confirmed that it must be something in luatex 
itself

> 6.) I know that \NR is not the most appropriate way to go into next
> row, but the following gives considerably different results in MKII
> and MKIV:
>
> \starttable[|l|]
> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
> \stoptable

probably because \type has no strut in mkiv ... maybe it should have

> 7.) I know that there's a longstanding left vs. right bug, but

hey, it's spec, no bug (as left is short for raggedleft)

> flushleft is no solution in the following case (compare MKII and MKIV
> again):
>
> \definedescription
>    [latexdesc]
>    [headstyle={\ss\bf},style=normal,align=left,location=hanging,width=fit,margin=0cm]
>
> \latexdesc{step E (expectation):} \input tufte
>
> \latexdesc{step M (maximization):} \input tufte

just omit the align=left (was not handled in mkii)

also, commands starting with \latex behave unpredictable in mkiv due to 
luigis compatibility mode

> 8.)
>
> \definetypeface [boldmath] [mm] [boldmath] [latin-modern] [default]
> \starttext
> $\boldsymbol{\theta}$
> \stoptext

sure, boldmath is now done differently: we have either unicode bold or 
full bold and full bold has never been checked (keep in mind that in 
unicode not all symbols have a bold variant

> 9.) Note the big difference of when the formula starts vertically on page:
>
> \starttext
> \startformula
> a+b
> \stopformula
> \stoptext

interesting, i need to look into that

> 10.) Different square root shape/variant used:
>
> $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$
>
> Original formula:
> \startformula
> \startcases
>    \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
>    \NC ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}\exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr),
> \NC for $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
> \stopcases
> \stopformula
> but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original
> document on a smaller scale.

hm, probably not the only difference as we do math differently

> 11.) Missing bibliography entries:
>
> \usemodule[bib]
> % this line spoils the show
> \setuppublications[alternative=num]
>
> \setuppublicationlayout[webpage]{%
> 	\inserttitle{\bgroup\it }{\egroup. }{}%
> 	\inserturl{}{}{}%
> }
>
> \startpublication
> 	[k=FAIR,t=webpage,u=http://www.gsi.de/fair/]
> 	\biburl{http://www.gsi.de/fair/}
> 	\title{FAIR -- Facility for Antiproton and Ion Research}
> \stoppublication
>
> \starttext
> \cite[FAIR]\par
> \placepublications
> \stoptext

magic to me, but we can look into bib mess stuff later

> 12.) \nocite[nonexistent] generates an empty [n] in bibliography in
> MKII, while it has zero effect in MKIV (it should at least generate an
> error).

you may make a tracker of this

> 13.) Different spacing
>
> \setupwhitespace[big]
> \def\dictentry#1#2{\hbox{\bf#1}\hbox{\hbox to 1em{}\hbox{#2}}\blank[4mm]}
> \starttext
> \dictentry{clipping}{preboj}
> \dictentry{clustering}{gručenje}
> \stoptext

looks like a mkii problem

> 14.) Two very weird issues with section alignments, but I'll continue
> later - I need some fresh air now.
>
> ------
> What's the following BEWARE useful for?
>
> systems         : BEWARE: syntex functionality is enabled!

to warn me of a slower run and some potentially big extra file

well, now *i* need fresh air -)

Hans

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Mojca Miklavec]

[reshufling the order a bit]

First of all - I forgot to express my positive surprise - all the
horizontal breaks including hyphenation are *exactly the same* in MKII
and MKIV all over the document, even though MKII and MKIV are using
different fonts. Which is really nice.

\startyoumayignorethis
The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.

Yes, I know. The two are incompatible. Yes, I know. Different fonts
are being used. Yes, I know. Different algorithms/aproaches to break
pages. But it would be soooooo nice if the most basic documents with
LM fonts could turn out at least approximately the same. Horizontal
breaking works perfectly (it's identical). It's only vertical spacing
that's a tiny bit "problematic" and makes every recompiled document a
bit messy.

It might be nice to look a bit closer to the topic, like in the
example that I pointed out. There are some weirdnesses left, like the
equations that starts at least a line lower in MKIV when there's no
real reason for such a behaviour.
\stopyoumayignorethis

>> \definedescription
>>   [latexdesc]
>> [headstyle={\ss\bf},style=normal,align=left,location=hanging,width=fit,margin=0cm]
>
> just omit the align=left (was not handled in mkii)

Honestly, I have no idea why I had it there, but I guess that I was
copy-pasting from wiki. So I didn't even notice that that option had
no effect at all.

> also, commands starting with \latex behave unpredictable in mkiv due to
> luigis compatibility mode

That was the best comment in the thread. Thanks for making me a day :)

>> \usetypescript[iwona]
>> \setupbodyfont[iwona]
>> \starttext
>> $a+b$
>> \stoptext
>
> hmm runs ok here ... but as i removed some old iwona stuff from type-otf

Thanks. In the new beta warnings are gone indeed. (I'll check the
changes later.)

>> 2.) Recently discussed on the mailing list - stopper has no influence in
>> MKIV:
>>
>> \setupcaptions[stopper={:}]
>> \starttext
>> \placefigure{title}{\framed{bla}}
>> \stoptext
>
> subtle difference:
>
> \setupcaptions[numberstopper={:}]
> \starttext
> \placefigure{title}{\framed{bla}}
> \stoptext
>
> all stopper, separator etc things are now more explicit as we have more
> control

Thanks a lot. (Just wandering - should stopper be a synonym for
numberstopper in MKIV then or is stopper also used somewhere else?)

>> 4.)
>> A slightly more basic example:
>>
>> \enableregime[utf-8]
>> \starttext
>> \startbuffer[gnu]
>> \startMPcode
>> draw \sometxt{čšž};
>> \stopMPcode
>> \stopbuffer
>> čšž
>> \getbuffer[gnu]
>> \stoptext
>
> hm, i get a pdf file with
>
> čšž čšž
>
> so what happens at your end?

Did you try to run that with MKII? MKIV works fine (I know that the
title was a bit misleading). I get the characters from font that are
equal to the second byte of UTF-8 representation of input character.

>> 5.)
> weird indeed, must be something basis as
> $$111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111\normalreqno{!!}$$
>
> also has it .. taco just confirmed that it must be something in luatex
> itself

Thanks. I'm sorry that I didn't simplify that one (I just took a
random equation out of a document since it looked nicer).

>> 6.) I know that \NR is not the most appropriate way to go into next
>> row, but the following gives considerably different results in MKII
>> and MKIV:
>>
>> \starttable[|l|]
>> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
>> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
>> \NC \type{a} \NC\NR
>> \stoptable
>
> probably because \type has no strut in mkiv ... maybe it should have

I don't know.

>> 9.) Note the big difference of when the formula starts vertically on page:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \startformula
>> a+b
>> \stopformula
>> \stoptext
>
> interesting, i need to look into that

Thanks :)

>> 11.) Missing bibliography entries:
>>
>> \usemodule[bib]
>> % this line spoils the show
>> \setuppublications[alternative=num]
>>
>> \setuppublicationlayout[webpage]{%
>>        \inserttitle{\bgroup\it }{\egroup. }{}%
>>        \inserturl{}{}{}%
>> }
>>
>> \startpublication
>>        [k=FAIR,t=webpage,u=http://www.gsi.de/fair/]
>>        \biburl{http://www.gsi.de/fair/}
>>        \title{FAIR -- Facility for Antiproton and Ion Research}
>> \stoppublication
>>
>> \starttext
>> \cite[FAIR]\par
>> \placepublications
>> \stoptext
>
> magic to me, but we can look into bib mess stuff later

What can I do?

>> 3.) Bibliography citations give different result with the same setup
>> (different numbers and different spacing in \placepublication - might
>> be also worth testing with grid typesetting as I wasn't able to set up
>> the alignment properly in MKII last time when I have tried). I'm not
>> sure which one is right, but there's probably no reason to produce
>> different results.
>>
>> \usemodule
>>        [bib]
>> \setuppublications
>>        [alternative=num,
>>         criterium=all,
>>         sorttype=cite]
>>
>> \starttext
>> \startpublication[k=a,t=article]\arttitle{a}\stoppublication
>> \startpublication[k=b,t=article]\arttitle{b}\stoppublication
>> \startpublication[k=c,t=article]\arttitle{c}\stoppublication
>>
>> x\cite[a,b,c]
>>
>> \placepublications
>> \stoptext
>
> as i never used citations i don't know what you expect ... best ask Thomas
> what you should expect ... anyway, i'll make a template for the xml approach

Does anyone else have an idea of whether \cite[a,b,c] should generate
[1,2,3] or [1-3]? I have an article at hand that has "[1], [2], [3]"
instead to be honest. I'm not sure, but [1-3] somehow doesn't appear
right to me. I have a feeling that each bib item needs to be cited
separately, but I may be wrong.

Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec
<mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>> also, commands starting with \latex behave unpredictable in mkiv due to
>> luigis compatibility mode
>
> That was the best comment in the thread. Thanks for making me a day :)

hm, I'm pretty sure to don't know what is luigis compatibility mode here .


-- 
luigi
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> \startyoumayignorethis
> The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
> differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
> consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
> try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
> page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.

\startcantresistmode

the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have the 
tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly different 
spacing

\stopcantresistmode

> Yes, I know. The two are incompatible. Yes, I know. Different fonts
> are being used. Yes, I know. Different algorithms/aproaches to break
> pages. But it would be soooooo nice if the most basic documents with
> LM fonts could turn out at least approximately the same. Horizontal
> breaking works perfectly (it's identical). It's only vertical spacing
> that's a tiny bit "problematic" and makes every recompiled document a
> bit messy.

\startchallengingmode

well, you can try to figure out what 2.8ex in mkii and mkiv is and then 
have your own defaults for mkiv

\stopchallengingmode

> It might be nice to look a bit closer to the topic, like in the
> example that I pointed out. There are some weirdnesses left, like the
> equations that starts at least a line lower in MKIV when there's no
> real reason for such a behaviour.

\startexplanation
TeX tries hard to inject a baselineskip and also an empty hlist so that 
one always gets that line. In MkII I compensated for that hard to beat 
automatism. In MkIV this does not happen. We figured out that when we 
add a \noindent before $$ that we don't get this side effect so that now 
happens in the latest beta.
\stopexplanation

> \stopyoumayignorethis

> Thanks a lot. (Just wandering - should stopper be a synonym for
> numberstopper in MKIV then or is stopper also used somewhere else?)

the more synonyme the more documentation

> Did you try to run that with MKII? MKIV works fine (I know that the
> title was a bit misleading). I get the characters from font that are
> equal to the second byte of UTF-8 representation of input character.

you probably need to enable utf8 in the mp environment then

> Thanks. I'm sorry that I didn't simplify that one (I just took a
> random equation out of a document since it looked nicer).

random thesis ... interesting

>>> 9.) Note the big difference of when the formula starts vertically on page:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> \startformula
>>> a+b
>>> \stopformula
>>> \stoptext
>>
>> interesting, i need to look into that
>
> Thanks :)

same problem as previous

> What can I do?

make a complete test as small as possible

> Does anyone else have an idea of whether \cite[a,b,c] should generate
> [1,2,3] or [1-3]? I have an article at hand that has "[1], [2], [3]"
> instead to be honest. I'm not sure, but [1-3] somehow doesn't appear
> right to me. I have a feeling that each bib item needs to be cited
> separately, but I may be wrong.

collapsing has always been there afaik

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
> >\startyoumayignorethis
> >The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
> >differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
> >consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
> >try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
> >page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
> 
> \startcantresistmode
> 
> the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
> the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
> different spacing

Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
interline spacing?

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 4:32, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>>> \startyoumayignorethis
>>> The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
>>> differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
>>> consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
>>> try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
>>> page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
>>
>> \startcantresistmode
>>
>> the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
>> the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
>> different spacing
>
> Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
> for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
> too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
> It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
> interline spacing?

turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic for 
determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)

Hans


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 05:00:01PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 13-5-2010 4:32, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> >>
> >>>\startyoumayignorethis
> >>>The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
> >>>differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
> >>>consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
> >>>try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
> >>>page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
> >>
> >>\startcantresistmode
> >>
> >>the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
> >>the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
> >>different spacing
> >
> >Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
> >for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
> >too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
> >It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
> >interline spacing?
> 
> turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic for
> determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)

I recall trying grid a while ago but it didn't work, looks like I have
to set \setuplayout[grid=force].

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 7:08, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 05:00:01PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 13-5-2010 4:32, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> \startyoumayignorethis
>>>>> The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
>>>>> differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
>>>>> consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
>>>>> try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
>>>>> page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
>>>>
>>>> \startcantresistmode
>>>>
>>>> the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
>>>> the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
>>>> different spacing
>>>
>>> Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
>>> for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
>>> too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
>>> It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
>>> interline spacing?
>>
>> turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic for
>> determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)
>
> I recall trying grid a while ago but it didn't work, looks like I have
> to set \setuplayout[grid=force].

for sure there are bugs as it needs much testing but we have predefined 
grid setups:

% none             don't enlarge
% halfline         enlarge by halfline/halfline
% line             enlarge by line/line
% strut            enlarge by ht/dp (default)
% first            align to top line
% last             align to bottom line
% mindepth         round depth down
% maxdepth         round depth up
% minheight        round height down
% maxheight        round height up
% local            use local interline space
% shift:-3tp       vertical shift within box

\definegridsnapping[normal]   [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]
\definegridsnapping[standard] [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]
\definegridsnapping[yes]      [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]

\definegridsnapping[strict]   [\v!maxdepth:0.8,maxheight:0.8,strut]
\definegridsnapping[tolerant] [\v!maxdepth:1.2,maxheight:1.2,strut]

\definegridsnapping[top]      [minheight,maxdepth,strut]
\definegridsnapping[bottom]   [maxheight,mindepth,strut]
\definegridsnapping[both]     [minheight,mindepth,strut]

\definegridsnapping[broad]    [maxheight,maxdepth,strut,0.8]
\definegridsnapping[fit]      [maxheight,maxdepth,strut,1.2]

\definegridsnapping[first]    [first]
\definegridsnapping[last]     [last]
\definegridsnapping[high]     [minheight,maxdepth,none]
\definegridsnapping[low]      [maxheight,mindepth,none]
\definegridsnapping[line]     [line]
\definegridsnapping[strut]    [strut]

\definegridsnapping[max]      [maxdepth,maxheight,strut]
\definegridsnapping[min]      [mindepth,minheight,strut]

eventually an structural elements will have a grid key

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2010-05-13 um 23:09 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> I recall trying grid a while ago but it didn't work, looks like I  
>> have
>> to set \setuplayout[grid=force].
>
> for sure there are bugs as it needs much testing but we have  
> predefined grid setups:
>
> % none             don't enlarge
> % halfline         enlarge by halfline/halfline
> % line             enlarge by line/line
> % strut            enlarge by ht/dp (default)
> % first            align to top line
> % last             align to bottom line
> % mindepth         round depth down
> % maxdepth         round depth up
> % minheight        round height down
> % maxheight        round height up
> % local            use local interline space
> % shift:-3tp       vertical shift within box
>
> \definegridsnapping[normal]   [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[standard] [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[yes]      [maxheight,maxdepth,strut]
>
> \definegridsnapping[strict]   [\v!maxdepth:0.8,maxheight:0.8,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[tolerant] [\v!maxdepth:1.2,maxheight:1.2,strut]
>
> \definegridsnapping[top]      [minheight,maxdepth,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[bottom]   [maxheight,mindepth,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[both]     [minheight,mindepth,strut]
>
> \definegridsnapping[broad]    [maxheight,maxdepth,strut,0.8]
> \definegridsnapping[fit]      [maxheight,maxdepth,strut,1.2]
>
> \definegridsnapping[first]    [first]
> \definegridsnapping[last]     [last]
> \definegridsnapping[high]     [minheight,maxdepth,none]
> \definegridsnapping[low]      [maxheight,mindepth,none]
> \definegridsnapping[line]     [line]
> \definegridsnapping[strut]    [strut]
>
> \definegridsnapping[max]      [maxdepth,maxheight,strut]
> \definegridsnapping[min]      [mindepth,minheight,strut]
>
> eventually an structural elements will have a grid key

wikified:
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Reference/en/setuplayout



Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:00:01 -0500, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 13-5-2010 4:32, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>
>>>> \startyoumayignorethis
>>>> The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
>>>> differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
>>>> consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
>>>> try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
>>>> page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
>>>
>>> \startcantresistmode
>>>
>>> the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
>>> the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
>>> different spacing
>>
>> Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
>> for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
>> too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
>> It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
>> interline spacing?

Can you give an example?

> turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic for  
> determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)

I have some nice texts that illustrate a standard balance, but I'd like to  
see what Khaled has in mind exactly before I comment further...

Peace
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 01:46:28PM -0500, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس  سماوي حامد wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:00:01 -0500, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> >On 13-5-2010 4:32, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 04:16:12PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>>On 13-5-2010 3:42, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>\startyoumayignorethis
> >>>>The only thing that really bothers me are so much different vertical
> >>>>differences which show up in almost every document I ever write. MKIV
> >>>>consistently takes more vertical space, so no matter what document I
> >>>>try to recompile, it always ends up with more pages (and some weird
> >>>>page breaks) when processing it with MKIV.
> >>>
> >>>\startcantresistmode
> >>>
> >>>the lineheight relates to the ex height and as in mkiv we don't have
> >>>the tfm limitations (those 16 values of ht dp) we have slightly
> >>>different spacing
> >>
> >>Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
> >>for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
> >>too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
> >>It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
> >>interline spacing?
> 
> Can you give an example?
> 
> >turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic
> >for determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)
> 
> I have some nice texts that illustrate a standard balance, but I'd
> like to see what Khaled has in mind exactly before I comment
> further...

Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
can be even worse than this in reality):

\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[Arabic Typesetting][features=arabic]

\starttext
\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{20}{نص عربي } نَصُّ مُشكَّل \dorecurse{20}{نص عربي}}
\stoptext

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:06:09 -0500, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:

>> >>Something I find very annoying is variable interline spacing, if I've,
>> >>for example, a line with some Arabic words vocalized I get some times
>> >>too much white space above it that it almost looks like an empty line.
>> >>It makes the page look like crap. Is there a way to force fixed
>> >>interline spacing?
>>
>> Can you give an example?
>>
>> >turn turn grid on .. but even then, we need some nice heuristic
>> >for determing the right ht/dp ratio for arabic (can be set up)
>>
>> I have some nice texts that illustrate a standard balance, but I'd
>> like to see what Khaled has in mind exactly before I comment
>> further...
> Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
> know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
> issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
> always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
> See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
> can be even worse than this in reality):
> \usemodule[simplefonts]
> \setmainfont[Arabic Typesetting][features=arabic]
> \starttext
> \pardir TRT\textdir TRT
> \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{20}{نص عربي } نَصُّ مُشكَّل \dorecurse{20}{نص  
> عربي}}
> \stoptext

I used to find this annoying years ago but today I look at it as a good
feature. In your \definebodyfontenvironment you just have to define a good
interlinespace. Presumably the one picked up from the font by luatex is
not high enough.

In my journal, I used to use \struttedbox's (or something similarly named)
to suppress this when mixing english and arabic...

Professionally mixed latin-arabic texts often adjust the interline
spacing, especially when arabic is introduced into latin paragraphs. This
is almost unavoidable since making arabic-script readable and matchable to
latin involves a larger relative size for aesthetic optics.

Sometimes forcing will look nice, but even then one probably has to add a
bit of interlinespace to the latin font to get the right balance. That is,
a latin document that uses a LOT of interparagraph arabic will want a bit
extra interlinespace to begin with, so that "forcing" will generally give
good results.

Best wishes
Idris


-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 9:31, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس  سماوي حامد wrote:

> Sometimes forcing will look nice, but even then one probably has to add a
> bit of interlinespace to the latin font to get the right balance. That is,
> a latin document that uses a LOT of interparagraph arabic will want a bit
> extra interlinespace to begin with, so that "forcing" will generally give
> good results.

you can set up grid snapping according to several strategies (will be 
documented when okay)

- snap to lineht/dp
- add strutht/dp
- find minimum noflines needed, round up/down (dp and/or ht)

it's not only a mixed latin-arabic problem, lines with large math also 
have this problem

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
> know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
> issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
> always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
> See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
> can be even worse than this in reality):

for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might have 
more input on this)

- it has more height than depth
- vowels add to the height of the line
- tex adds some interline space when lines touch

> \usemodule[simplefonts]
> \setmainfont[Arabic Typesetting][features=arabic]
>
> \starttext
> \pardir TRT\textdir TRT
> \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{20}{نص عربي } نَصُّ مُشكَّل \dorecurse{20}{نص عربي}}
> \stoptext
>
> Regards,
>   Khaled
>


-- 

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:25:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> 
> >Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
> >know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
> >issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
> >always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
> >See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
> >can be even worse than this in reality):
> 
> for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
> have more input on this)
> 
> - it has more height than depth

Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.

> - vowels add to the height of the line
> - tex adds some interline space when lines touch

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 11:26, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:25:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>>> Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
>>> know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
>>> issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
>>> always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
>>> See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
>>> can be even worse than this in reality):
>>
>> for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
>> have more input on this)
>>
>> - it has more height than depth
>
> Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.

so for say 12pt arabic we should use 8pt ht and 8pt depth?

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1223 bytes --]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:35:58PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 13-5-2010 11:26, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:25:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>
> >>>Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
> >>>know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
> >>>issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
> >>>always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
> >>>See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
> >>>can be even worse than this in reality):
> >>
> >>for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
> >>have more input on this)
> >>
> >>- it has more height than depth
> >
> >Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.
> 
> so for say 12pt arabic we should use 8pt ht and 8pt depth?

I'm not sure about this, but I'd rather trust the font designer for
knowing better about his font, and something like in the attached file
(except it doesn't work :) see my other mail)

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

[-- Attachment #2: linespace.tex --]
[-- Type: text/x-tex, Size: 719 bytes --]

\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[Arabic Typesetting][features=arabic]

\setuplayout[grid=force]
\showgrid

\starttext

\startluacode
  local otfdata  = fonts.ids[font.current()].shared.otfdata
  local ascent   = otfdata.metadata.ascent
  local descent  = otfdata.metadata.descent

  local tascent  = (otfdata.pfminfo.os2_typoascent  + ascent ) / 1000
  local tdescent =-(otfdata.pfminfo.os2_typodescent - descent) / 1000
  local linegap  = (otfdata.pfminfo.linegap)                   / 1000

  tex.sprint(
    string.format(
      "\\setupinterlinespace[height=\%sem, depth=\%sem, distance=\%sem]",
      tascent, -tdescent, linegap
    )
  )
\stopluacode

\pardir TRT \textdir TRT
\input ibn_hisham.txt

\stoptext

[-- Attachment #3: ibn_hisham.txt --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 4668 bytes --]

طَرَحَتْنِي النَّوَى مَطَارِحَهَا حَتّى إذَا وَطِئْتُ جُرْجَان الأَقْصى. فاسْتَظْهَرْتُ عَلَى الأَيامِ بِضِياعٍ أَجَلْتُ فِيهاَ يَدَ الْعِمَارةِ، وَأَمْوَالٍ وَقَفْتُهَا عَلى التِّجَارَةِ، وَحَانُوتٍ جَعَلْتُهُ مَثَابَةٍ، وَرُفْقَةٍ اتَّخَذْتُهَا صَحَابَةً، وَجَعَلْتُ لِلْدَّارِ، حَاشِيَتَيِ النَّهَار، وللحَانُوتِ بَيْنَهُمَا، فَجَلَسْنَا يَوْمًا نَتَذَاكَرُ القرِيضَ وَأَهْلَهُ، وَتِلْقَاءَنا شَابّ قَدْ جَلَسَ غَيْرَ بَعِيدٍ يُنْصِتُ وَكَأَنّهُ يَفْهَمُ، وَيَسْكتُ وَكَأَنّهُ لاَ يَعْلَمُ حَتّى إِذَا مَالَ الكَلاَمُ بِنَا مَيْلَهُ، وَجَرّ الْجِدَالُ فِينَا ذَيْلَهُ، قَالَ: قَدْ أَصَبْتُمْ عُذَيَقَهُ، وَوَافَيتُمْ جُذَيْلَهُ، وَلَوْ شِئْتُ لَلَفْظْتُ وَأَفَضْتُ، وَلَوْ قُلْتُ لأَصْدَرْتُ وَأَوْرَدْتُ، وَلَجَلَوْتُ الْحقّ في مَعْرَضِ بَيَانٍ يُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ، وَيُنزلُ الْعُصْمَ، فَقُلْتُ: يَا فَاضِلُ أدْنُ فَقَدْ مَنَّيْتَ، وَهَاتِ فَقَدْ أَثْنَيتَ، فَدَنَا وَقَالَ: سَلُونِي أُجِبْكُمْ، وَاسْمَعُوا أُعْجِبْكُمْ. فَقُلْنَا: مَا تَقُولُ فِي امْرِىءِ الْقَيسِ؟ قَالَ: هُوَ أَوَّلُ مَنْ وَقَفَ بِالدِّيارِ وَعَرَصَاتِهَا، وَاغْتَدَى وَالطَّيرُ فِي وَكَنَاتِهَا، وَوَصَفَ الْخيلَ بِصِفَاِتهَا، وَلَمْ يَقُلِ الشِّعْرَ كَاسِيًا. وَلَمْ يُجِدِ القَوْلَ رَاغِبًا، فَفَضَلَ مَنْ تَفَتَّقَ للْحِيلةِ لِسَانُهُ، وَانْتَجَعَ لِلرَّغْبَة بَنَانُهُ، قُلْنَا: فَما تَقُولُ فِي الْنَّابِغَةِ؟ قالَ: يَثلِبُ إِذَا حَنِقَ، وَيَمْدَحُ إِذَا رَغِبَ، وَيَعْتَذِرُ إِذَا رَهِبَ، فَلاَ يَرْمي إِلاَّ صَائِبًا، قُلْنَا:فَمَا تَقُولُ فِي زُهَيرٍ؟ قَالَ يُذِيبُ الشِّعرَ، والشعْرُ يُذيبَهُ، وَيَدعُو القَولَ وَالسِّحْرَ يُجِيبُهُ، قُلْنَا: فَمَا تَقُولُ فِي طَرَفَةَ: قَالَ: هُوَ ماَءُ الأشْعَارِ وَطينَتُها، وَكَنْزُ الْقَوَافِي وَمَديِنَتُهَا، مَاتَ وَلَمْ تَظْهَرْ أَسْرَارُ دَفَائِنِهِ وَلَمْ تُفْتَحْ أَغْلاَقُ خَزَائِنِهِ، قُلْنَا: فَمَا تَقُولُ فِي جَرِيرٍ وَالْفَرَزْدَقِ؟ أَيُّهُمَا أَسْبَقُ؟ فَقَالَ: جَرِيرٌ أَرَقُّ شِعْرًا، وَأَغْزَرُ غَزْرًا وَالْفَرَزْدَقُ أَمْتَنُ صَخْرًا، وَأَكْثَرُ فَخْرًا وَجَرِيرٌ أَوْجَعُ هَجْوًا، وَأَشْرَفُ يَوْمًا وَالْفَرَزْدَقُ أَكَثَرُ رَوْمًا، وَأَكْرَمُ قَوْمًا، وَجَرِيرٌ إِذَا نَسَبَ أَشْجَى، وَإِذَا ثَلَبَ أَرْدَى، وَإِذَا مَدَحَ أَسْنَى، وَالْفَرزدقُ إِذَا افْتَخَرَ أَجْزَى، وَإِذَا احْتَقرَ أَزرَى، وَإِذا وصَفَ أَوفَى، قُلنَا: فَمَا تَقُولُ فِي المُحْدَثِينَ منْ الشُّعَراءِ والمُتَقَدِّمينَ مِنهُمْ؟ قالَ: المُتَقَدِّمونَ أَشْرفُ لَفْظًا، وَأَكثرُ منْ المَعَاني حَظًا، وَالمُتَأَخِّرونَ أَلْطَفُ صُنْعًا، وَأَرَقُّ نَسْجًا، قُلْنا: فَلَو أَرَيْتَ مِنْ أَشْعارِكَ، وَرَوَيْتَ لَنا مِنْ أَخْبارِكَ، قالَ: خُذْهَما في مَعْرِضٍ واحِدٍ، وَقالَ:

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 14-5-2010 2:37, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:35:58PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 13-5-2010 11:26, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:25:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
>>>>> know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
>>>>> issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
>>>>> always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
>>>>> See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
>>>>> can be even worse than this in reality):
>>>>
>>>> for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
>>>> have more input on this)
>>>>
>>>> - it has more height than depth
>>>
>>> Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.
>>
>> so for say 12pt arabic we should use 8pt ht and 8pt depth?
>
> I'm not sure about this, but I'd rather trust the font designer for
> knowing better about his font, and something like in the attached file
> (except it doesn't work :) see my other mail)

it's a gray area ... if we obey the ht/dp spec of a font (ascender and 
descender) we end up with an unpredictable mess (actually comparable to 
setting the baselineskip to 0pt and trusting the ht/dp of glyphs to 
force the right line spacing)

in dtp there's aways this rather strict grid

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 02:54:49PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 14-5-2010 2:37, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:35:58PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>On 13-5-2010 11:26, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>>On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:25:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>>>On 13-5-2010 10:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Nothing special, I always expect interline space to be fixed, I don't
> >>>>>know if TeX always make interline spacing variable, but this wasn't an
> >>>>>issue with English text. However, with Arabic, Tashkil marks seems to
> >>>>>always cause a noticeable extra whitespace above the line.
> >>>>>See the uneven distribution of vertical whitespace in this example (it
> >>>>>can be even worse than this in reality):
> >>>>
> >>>>for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
> >>>>have more input on this)
> >>>>
> >>>>- it has more height than depth
> >>>
> >>>Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.
> >>
> >>so for say 12pt arabic we should use 8pt ht and 8pt depth?
> >
> >I'm not sure about this, but I'd rather trust the font designer for
> >knowing better about his font, and something like in the attached file
> >(except it doesn't work :) see my other mail)
> 
> it's a gray area ... if we obey the ht/dp spec of a font (ascender
> and descender) we end up with an unpredictable mess (actually
> comparable to setting the baselineskip to 0pt and trusting the ht/dp
> of glyphs to force the right line spacing)
> 
> in dtp there's aways this rather strict grid

At least it should be there as an option, and contrary to ht/dp of the
glyphs, typo ascender/descender are font wide values thus will be the
same for all lines (math is an exception).

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Fri, 14 May 2010 06:37:02 -0600, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>
wrote:

>> >>for arabic you really need to set the interline space (idris might
>> >>have more input on this)
>> >>
>> >>- it has more height than depth
>> >
>> >Not always عٍ or فيٍ is as deep as high is أً.
>>
>> so for say 12pt arabic we should use 8pt ht and 8pt depth?
>
> I'm not sure about this, but I'd rather trust the font designer for
> knowing better about his font, and something like in the attached file
> (except it doesn't work :) see my other mail)

systems         : begin file linespace.tex at line 7
! You can't use `\dimexpr' in horizontal mode.
<recently read> \dimexpr

\setstrutgridyes ...e \strutheightfactor \dimexpr
                                                     \normallineheight \fi
\str...
\setstrut ->\ifgridsnapping \setstrutgridyes
                                                \else \setstrutgridnop \fi
<inserted text> ...nizefont \fi \spacing \plusone
                                                     \presetnormallineheight
\s...
\setfontparameters ...tsfalse \the \everybodyfont
                                                     \synchronizefontstrue
\dosetupspecifiedinterlinespaceindeed ...rameters
                                                     \updateraggedskips
...
l.24 \stopluacode

?

In any case, overly trusting the font designer is a bad idea in this
arena, particularly with Arabic fonts. For example, vowels are treated as
something of an afterthought even in "good" arabic fonts; yet they affect
linespace calculations. In a document with no vowels one can get away with
things you cannot get away with when they are extensively used; manual
control is essential. And "good" arabic fonts contain numerous errors
anyway.

This is part of the luatex/mkiv philosophy anyway; otherwise we'd just use
uniscribe or pango ;-)

Peace
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Mojca Miklavec]

Dear Hans,

(I'll answer the rest later)

>> Did you try to run that with MKII? MKIV works fine (I know that the
>> title was a bit misleading). I get the characters from font that are
>> equal to the second byte of UTF-8 representation of input character.
>
> you probably need to enable utf8 in the mp environment then

But it has always worked perfectly until recently. And it's not really
mp environment. I suspect that the text gets typeset with TeX, not
with metapost, so metapost enviroment should not really count.

I have a version of ConTeXt that dates back to
    2009.11.24 10:13
and in that one it still works properly. In version
    2010.02.26 10:57
it is broken.

>> Thanks. I'm sorry that I didn't simplify that one (I just took a
>> random equation out of a document since it looked nicer).
>
> random thesis ... interesting

You know ... you have written a devoted \startsimplethesis for me,
don't you remember :)
Random images and equations were included there as well, I just
extended macros a bit to adapt the result to the expertise of each
jury member last september :)

>> What can I do?
>
> make a complete test as small as possible

It doesn't get much simpler than the following:

\usemodule[bib]
% this line spoils the show
\setuppublications[alternative=num]
\setuppublicationlayout[webpage]{\inserturl{}{}{}}
\startpublication[k=pragma,t=webpage]
\biburl{http://www.pragma-ade.com}
\stoppublication

\starttext
\cite[pragma]\par\placepublications
\stoptext

Defining new publication types doesn't seem to be compatible with
alternative=num in MKIV.

Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Hans Hagen]

On 13-5-2010 8:34, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Dear Hans,
>
> (I'll answer the rest later)
>
>>> Did you try to run that with MKII? MKIV works fine (I know that the
>>> title was a bit misleading). I get the characters from font that are
>>> equal to the second byte of UTF-8 representation of input character.
>>
>> you probably need to enable utf8 in the mp environment then
>
> But it has always worked perfectly until recently. And it's not really
> mp environment. I suspect that the text gets typeset with TeX, not
> with metapost, so metapost enviroment should not really count.
>
> I have a version of ConTeXt that dates back to
>      2009.11.24 10:13
> and in that one it still works properly. In version
>      2010.02.26 10:57
> it is broken.

hm, let's move this off list then ... (just make very small for sure 
failing tests that i then can add to the test suite)

> You know ... you have written a devoted \startsimplethesis for me,
> don't you remember :)
> Random images and equations were included there as well, I just
> extended macros a bit to adapt the result to the expertise of each
> jury member last september :)

surely i remember and i'm working on a more advanced version for your 
upcoming thesis, with automatic bibliographic references and so, but 
i'll only finish it when you will use mkiv

>>> What can I do?
>>
>> make a complete test as small as possible
>
> It doesn't get much simpler than the following:
>
> \usemodule[bib]
> % this line spoils the show

% this example spoils my weekend

> \setuppublications[alternative=num]
> \setuppublicationlayout[webpage]{\inserturl{}{}{}}
> \startpublication[k=pragma,t=webpage]
> \biburl{http://www.pragma-ade.com}
> \stoppublication
>
> \starttext
> \cite[pragma]\par\placepublications
> \stoptext

hm, you set it to num and get a num only? i'll have to check what happens

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Taco Hoekwater]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> as i never used citations i don't know what you expect ... best ask Thomas
>> what you should expect ... anyway, i'll make a template for the xml approach
> 
> Does anyone else have an idea of whether \cite[a,b,c] should generate
> [1,2,3] or [1-3]? I have an article at hand that has "[1], [2], [3]"
> instead to be honest. I'm not sure, but [1-3] somehow doesn't appear
> right to me. I have a feeling that each bib item needs to be cited
> separately, but I may be wrong.

It is a style thing: some journals want this, others that. In
hyper-linked docs,  you always need [1,2,3] because of the links.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Aditya Mahajan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 2007 bytes --]

On Wed, 12 May 2010, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> 7.) I know that there's a longstanding left vs. right bug, but
> flushleft is no solution in the following case (compare MKII and MKIV
> again):
>
> \definedescription
>  [latexdesc]
>  [headstyle={\ss\bf},style=normal,align=left,location=hanging,width=fit,margin=0cm]
>
> \latexdesc{step E (expectation):} \input tufte
>
> \latexdesc{step M (maximization):} \input tufte

Isn't MkIV output correct in this case? MkII is simply ignoring the align 
key. (Try with align=middle)

> 8.)
>
> \definetypeface [boldmath] [mm] [boldmath] [latin-modern] [default]
> \starttext
> $\boldsymbol{\theta}$
> \stoptext
>
> 9.) Note the big difference of when the formula starts vertically on page:
>
> \starttext
> \startformula
> a+b
> \stopformula
> \stoptext
>
> 10.) Different square root shape/variant used:
>
> $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$
>
> Original formula:
> \startformula
> \startcases
>  \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
>  \NC  ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}
>  \exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr), 
> \NC for $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
> \stopcases
> \stopformula
> but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original document 
> on a smaller scale.

Taco, is there a difference between the default math parameters for MkIV?

> 13.) Different spacing
>
> \setupwhitespace[big]
> \def\dictentry#1#2{\hbox{\bf#1}\hbox{\hbox to 1em{}\hbox{#2}}\blank[4mm]}
> \starttext
> \dictentry{clipping}{preboj}
> \dictentry{clustering}{gručenje}
> \stoptext

Vertical spacing has been completely redone in MkIV. There is much more 
control now, so you should be able to get MkII behavour, if that is what 
you want in this case.

> What's the following BEWARE useful for?
>
> systems         : BEWARE: syntex functionality is enabled!

A typo. That should say *synctex* and not *syntex*.

See Synctex and Context at http://itexmac.sourceforge.net/SyncTeX.html

Aditya

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Taco Hoekwater]

Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>> 10.) Different square root shape/variant used:
>>
>> $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$
>>
>> Original formula:
>> \startformula
>> \startcases
>>  \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
>>  \NC  ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}
>>  \exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr), \NC for 
>> $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
>> \stopcases
>> \stopformula
>> but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original 
>> document on a smaller scale.
> 
> Taco, is there a difference between the default math parameters for MkIV?

Hans now uses OpenType Math (sometimes faked) fonts always, and his
initial version of the reimplemenation of \big.... was wrong. But
I thought this had been fixed a few weeks ago.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Wed, 12 May 2010, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>>> 10.) Different square root shape/variant used:
>>>
>>> $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$
>>>
>>> Original formula:
>>> \startformula
>>> \startcases
>>>  \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
>>>  \NC  ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}
>>>  \exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr), \NC for 
>>> $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
>>> \stopcases
>>> \stopformula
>>> but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original 
>>> document on a smaller scale.
>> 
>> Taco, is there a difference between the default math parameters for MkIV?
>
> Hans now uses OpenType Math (sometimes faked) fonts always, and his
> initial version of the reimplemenation of \big.... was wrong. But
> I thought this had been fixed a few weeks ago.

I am using a month old version. I'll update and check again.

Mojca's question was regarding the shape of \sqrt.

Aditya

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 10+ reasons why I still use MKII

[Taco Hoekwater]

Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
>> Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>>>> 10.) Different square root shape/variant used:
>>>>
>>>> $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}$
>>>>
>>>> Original formula:
>>>> \startformula
>>>> \startcases
>>>>  \NC ρ_0, \NC for $i=0$, \NR
>>>>  \NC  ρ_i\,\frac{1}{\sqrt{2πσ_i^2}}
>>>>  \exp\biggl(-\frac{\left(x_j-μ_i\right)^2}{2σ_i^2}\biggr), \NC for 
>>>> $i\in\left\{1,2\right\}$. \NR
>>>> \stopcases
>>>> \stopformula
>>>> but I cannot reproduce the big difference it makes in original 
>>>> document on a smaller scale.
>>>
>>> Taco, is there a difference between the default math parameters for 
>>> MkIV?
>>
>> Hans now uses OpenType Math (sometimes faked) fonts always, and his
>> initial version of the reimplemenation of \big.... was wrong. But
>> I thought this had been fixed a few weeks ago.
> 
> I am using a month old version. I'll update and check again.
> 
> Mojca's question was regarding the shape of \sqrt.

Ah yes. Same problem, different glyph.

Best wishes,
Taco
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