imbalanced columns

imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Dear fellow gangsters,

MkIV:

\starttext
\starttables[|c|c|c|c|c|]
\HL
\VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL  
\Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
\HL
\VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL  
Zayd                          \VL\AR
\HL
\stoptables
\stoptext

In row 2, the space between columns 2-3, and 3-4 are not even. Is this a  
bug? If not, how do I balance them?

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

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pdf attached

Best wishes

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:42:29 -0600, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد  
<ishamid@colostate.edu> wrote:

> Dear fellow gangsters,
>
> MkIV:
>
> \starttext
> \starttables[|c|c|c|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL  
> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
> \HL
> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL  
> Zayd                          \VL\AR
> \HL
> \stoptables
> \stoptext
>
> In row 2, the space between columns 2-3, and 3-4 are not even. Is this a  
> bug? If not, how do I balance them?
>
> Best wishes
> Idris
>


-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

Am 14.07.2010 20:42, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
> Dear fellow gangsters,
> 
> MkIV:
> 
> \starttext
> \starttables[|c|c|c|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
> \HL
> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL
> Zayd                          \VL\AR
> \HL
> \stoptables
> \stoptext
> 
> In row 2, the space between columns 2-3, and 3-4 are not even. Is this a
> bug? If not, how do I balance them?
>

probably just automatic width balancing.

> Best wishes
> Idris
> 

maybe like this...


\starttext

\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Yaʿqūbī (d.~283{\sc ah})}
\newdimen\colA \colA\wd\scratchbox
\advance\colA-2em % sub column offsets
\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Munādī (d.~334{\sc ah})}
\newdimen\colB \colB\wd\scratchbox
\advance\colB-2em

\starttables[|c|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colB)|cp(.5\colB)|]
\HL
\VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
\Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
\HL
\VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd
                         \VL\AR
\HL
\stoptables
\stoptext



Best wishes,  Peter
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Re: imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi Peter,

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:26:10 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:

> Am 14.07.2010 20:42, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
>> Dear fellow gangsters,
>>
>> MkIV:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \starttables[|c|c|c|c|c|]
>> \HL
>> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
>> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
>> \HL
>> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL
>> Zayd                          \VL\AR
>> \HL
>> \stoptables
>> \stoptext
>>
>> In row 2, the space between columns 2-3, and 3-4 are not even. Is this a
>> bug? If not, how do I balance them?
>>
>
> probably just automatic width balancing.

I'm sure you are right :-) The question is, what is the logic here? If  
this is correct behavior, I'd like to understand why. Can someone explain  
it?

> maybe like this...

That's a great workaround, and I appreciate it. But what about new users?  
There has got to be a more elegant solution to this seemingly simple  
table. Row two just does not look right...

> \starttext
>
> \setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Yaʿqūbī (d.~283{\sc ah})}
> \newdimen\colA \colA\wd\scratchbox
> \advance\colA-2em % sub column offsets
> \setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Munādī (d.~334{\sc ah})}
> \newdimen\colB \colB\wd\scratchbox
> \advance\colB-2em
>
> \starttables[|c|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colB)|cp(.5\colB)|]
> \HL
> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
> \HL
> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd
>                          \VL\AR
> \HL
> \stoptables
> \stoptext

Thanks again, Peter, and

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

Am 15.07.2010 02:35, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:26:10 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
>> Am 14.07.2010 20:42, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
>>> Dear fellow gangsters,
>>>
>>> MkIV:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> \starttables[|c|c|c|c|c|]
>>> \HL
>>> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
>>> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
>>> \HL
>>> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL
>>> Zayd                          \VL\AR
>>> \HL
>>> \stoptables
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> In row 2, the space between columns 2-3, and 3-4 are not even. Is this a
>>> bug? If not, how do I balance them?
>>>
>>
>> probably just automatic width balancing.
> 
> I'm sure you are right :-) The question is, what is the logic here? If
> this is correct behavior, I'd like to understand why. Can someone
> explain it?
>

has to do with the way the column width is calculated. the combined
entries (2+3,4+5) in row one can only influence (increase) the total
width of the involved columns, but they can not give an answer to the
question how wide the single columns should be.

in the end you need a linear system of equations (and metapost) to solve
this. and there is also no guarantee that it is solvable in all (more
complex) cases.

col2=col3; col4=col5;
col2+col3= ....;
col4+col5= ....;

also: i can't imagine how a user interface for this should look like. :)

>> maybe like this...
> 
> That's a great workaround, and I appreciate it. But what about new
> users? There has got to be a more elegant solution to this seemingly
> simple table. Row two just does not look right...
>

true, but this is font related. you can see this by using
\ruledhbox{ʿAlī}. you have to add some manual kerning (\kern-0.??em ...)
then.


>> \starttext
>>
>> \setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Yaʿqūbī (d.~283{\sc ah})}
>> \newdimen\colA \colA\wd\scratchbox
>> \advance\colA-2em % sub column offsets
>> \setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Munādī (d.~334{\sc ah})}
>> \newdimen\colB \colB\wd\scratchbox
>> \advance\colB-2em
>>
>> \starttables[|c|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colB)|cp(.5\colB)|]
>> \HL
>> \VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL
>> \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
>> \HL
>> \VL        \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd
>>                          \VL\AR
>> \HL
>> \stoptables
>> \stoptext
> 
> Thanks again, Peter, and
> 
> Best wishes
> Idris

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Re: imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

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On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:33:03 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:

> has to do with the way the column width is calculated. the combined
> entries (2+3,4+5) in row one can only influence (increase) the total
> width of the involved columns, but they can not give an answer to the
> question how wide the single columns should be.
> in the end you need a linear system of equations (and metapost) to solve
> this. and there is also no guarantee that it is solvable in all (more
> complex) cases.
> col2=col3; col4=col5;
> col2+col3= ....;
> col4+col5= ....;

Ok... But it seems inescapable that this is a bug in some sense. If we  
simplify things, compare

======================================
\starttext
\starttables[|c|c|]
\HL
\VL \Use{2}[c]{B} \VL\AR
\HL
\VL  B \VL B                \VL\AR
\HL
\stoptables
\blank
\starttables[|c|c|]
\HL
\VL \Use{2}[c]{BBBBBBB} \VL\AR
\HL
\VL  B \VL B                \VL\AR
\HL
\stoptables
\stoptext
====================================

Your mathematical explanation makes sense, but to a new user I doubt one  
could convince him/her that the second table is a feature and not a bug.  
But I understand that the challenge may be complicated.

Till then, we need a simple workaround if that's possible.

> also: i can't imagine how a user interface for this should look like.

\setuptables[spanalign=balance]

or something....

>>> maybe like this...
>>
>> That's a great workaround, and I appreciate it. But what about new
>> users? There has got to be a more elegant solution to this seemingly
>> simple table. Row two just does not look right...
>>
> true, but this is font related. you can see this by using
> \ruledhbox{ʿAlī}. you have to add some manual kerning (\kern-0.??em ...)
> then.

I don't see the font-relatedness, even with \ruledhbox... Hence the above  
simple test case.

As we work to bring ConTeXt to a wider audience -- I'm currently involved  
with such efforts, we should keep track of outwardly "simple" cases like  
the above ...

Thanks again and

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3656 bytes --]

Am 15.07.2010 16:53, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:33:03 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
>> has to do with the way the column width is calculated. the combined
>> entries (2+3,4+5) in row one can only influence (increase) the total
>> width of the involved columns, but they can not give an answer to the
>> question how wide the single columns should be.
>> in the end you need a linear system of equations (and metapost) to solve
>> this. and there is also no guarantee that it is solvable in all (more
>> complex) cases.
>> col2=col3; col4=col5;
>> col2+col3= ....;
>> col4+col5= ....;
> 
> Ok... But it seems inescapable that this is a bug in some sense. If we
> simplify things, compare
> 
> ======================================
> \starttext
> \starttables[|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL \Use{2}[c]{B} \VL\AR
> \HL
> \VL  B \VL B                \VL\AR
> \HL
> \stoptables
> \blank
> \starttables[|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL \Use{2}[c]{BBBBBBB} \VL\AR
> \HL
> \VL  B \VL B                \VL\AR
> \HL
> \stoptables
> \stoptext
> ====================================
> 
> Your mathematical explanation makes sense, but to a new user I doubt one
> could convince him/her that the second table is a feature and not a bug.

it's more a limitation of this table implementation. you have some
additional space from the multicolumn entry that must be added to the
involved columns somehow. the current implementation is probably
something like this: use the natural width (maxima) for all but the last
involved column and add the complete additional space to the last one.

> But I understand that the challenge may be complicated.
> 
> Till then, we need a simple workaround if that's possible.
> 
>> also: i can't imagine how a user interface for this should look like.
> 
> \setuptables[spanalign=balance]
>

right. you can implement all kind of different spanning algorithms. i
would expect that 'balance' would share the additional space equally on
all involved columns.

but table macros in tex are really ugly. you need tons of bookkeeping
data for maxima, styles, multi-column|row, whatever. and tex has no data
types for bookkeeping (like a programming language), so you have to
store all the data in macros, dimens... it's a complete mess. have a
look at the macro definitions and you will agree :)

anyhow, i expect much better functionality (e.g. clever spanning
alternatives) with a lua based table implementation. we have to wait for
that.

> or something....
> 
>>>> maybe like this...
>>>
>>> That's a great workaround, and I appreciate it. But what about new
>>> users? There has got to be a more elegant solution to this seemingly
>>> simple table. Row two just does not look right...
>>>
>> true, but this is font related. you can see this by using
>> \ruledhbox{ʿAlī}. you have to add some manual kerning (\kern-0.??em ...)
>> then.
> 
> I don't see the font-relatedness, even with \ruledhbox... Hence the
> above simple test case.
> 

see attached pdf (the box looks centered). the \ruledhbox breaks the
width calculation of the second column somehow, but you can see that
there is some additional space in front of the first character. use a
negative kern in front of it for compensation.

> As we work to bring ConTeXt to a wider audience -- I'm currently
> involved with such efforts, we should keep track of outwardly "simple"
> cases like the above ...
>

not an easy task, as it's more a 'special' than a 'simple' case ;)
but i know what you mean. my best wishes for that.

Peter

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Re: imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:12:16 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:

> see attached pdf (the box looks centered).

Thanks... Could you post the code ;-)

(unless this is the same code u posted the first time...)

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

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Am 15.07.2010 19:12, schrieb Peter Rolf:

> see attached pdf (the box looks centered). the \ruledhbox breaks the
> width calculation of the second column somehow, but you can see that
> there is some additional space in front of the first character. use a
> negative kern in front of it for compensation.
> 
sorry, wrong pdf

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

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Am 15.07.2010 19:16, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:12:16 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
>> see attached pdf (the box looks centered).
> 
> Thanks... Could you post the code ;-)
> 
sure, but don't expect too much :)

> (unless this is the same code u posted the first time...)
> 
> Best wishes
> Idris


[-- Attachment #2: test.tex --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 575 bytes --]

\starttext

\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Yaʿqūbī (d.~283{\sc ah})}
\newdimen\colA \colA\wd\scratchbox
\advance\colA-2em
\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{Al-Munādī (d.~334{\sc ah})}
\newdimen\colB \colB\wd\scratchbox
\advance\colB-2em

\starttables[|c|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colA)|cp(.5\colB)|cp(.5\colB)|]
\HL
\VL Sevens \VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Yaʿqūbī} (d.~283{\sc ah})\VL \Use{2}[c]{Al-Munādī} (d.~334{\sc ah}) \VL\AR
\HL
\VL        \VL \ruledhbox{ʿAlī} \VL Zayd                          \VL ʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL\AR
\HL
\stoptables
\stoptext

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Re: imbalanced columns

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010, Peter Rolf wrote:

>>> also: i can't imagine how a user interface for this should look like.
>>
>> \setuptables[spanalign=balance]
>>
>
> right. you can implement all kind of different spanning algorithms. i
> would expect that 'balance' would share the additional space equally on
> all involved columns.
>
> but table macros in tex are really ugly. you need tons of bookkeeping
> data for maxima, styles, multi-column|row, whatever. and tex has no data
> types for bookkeeping (like a programming language), so you have to
> store all the data in macros, dimens... it's a complete mess. have a
> look at the macro definitions and you will agree :)
>
> anyhow, i expect much better functionality (e.g. clever spanning
> alternatives) with a lua based table implementation. we have to wait for
> that.

Also remember that the starttable macros are just a wrapper around TaBlE 
macros written by Michael Wichura. I don't know if those have enough hooks 
to support a high level interface.

Have you tried using natural tables. Now you can use them with almost the 
same amount of typing as the old table macros.

\startTABLE
\NC text 1 \NC text 2 \NC\NR
\NC text 3 \NC text 4 \NC\NR
\stopTABLE

and you have a high level interface of \setupTABLE (although I do not know 
if natural tables support equal column widths)

Aditya

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Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi Aditya,

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:37:32 -0600, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu>  
wrote:

> Have you tried using natural tables. Now you can use them with almost  
> the same amount of typing as the old table macros.
>  \startTABLE
> \NC text 1 \NC text 2 \NC\NR
> \NC text 3 \NC text 4 \NC\NR
> \stopTABLE

Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to  
newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?

I have not used Natural Tables too much, but I can switch to those for  
future work and consider Tables deprecated for most purposes.

Mainly a pedagogical/practical question: better to have one good way to do  
things than burdening folks with too much info...

>  and you have a high level interface of \setupTABLE (although I do not  
> know if natural tables support equal column widths)

I guess we'll find out soon enough... ;-)

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[luigi scarso]

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2010/7/15 Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد <ishamid@colostate.edu>

> Hi Aditya,
>
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:37:32 -0600, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu>
> wrote:
>
>  Have you tried using natural tables. Now you can use them with almost the
>> same amount of typing as the old table macros.
>>  \startTABLE
>> \NC text 1 \NC text 2 \NC\NR
>> \NC text 3 \NC text 4 \NC\NR
>> \stopTABLE
>>
>
> Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to
> newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?
>
> I have not used Natural Tables too much, but I can switch to those for
> future work and consider Tables deprecated for most purposes.
>
> I use only
1) b\TABLE\eTABLE
2) \starttabulate\stoptabulate

-- 
luigi

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Re: imbalanced columns

[Peter Rolf]

Am 15.07.2010 19:28, schrieb Peter Rolf:
> Am 15.07.2010 19:16, schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:12:16 -0600, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> see attached pdf (the box looks centered).
>>
>> Thanks... Could you post the code ;-)
>>
> sure, but don't expect too much :)
>

mh, seems my advice with the negative kern has some unwanted side effect
to the cell height. tables are complex constructs :)

using \hskip has no sideeffect (the value is not optimized). so here
only the changed line...

\VL        \VL \hskip-.2emʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL
\hskip-.2emʿAlī \VL Zayd                          \VL\AR

i'll drink a beer now, so no more advices from my side! (i know why) ;)

cheers, peter

>> (unless this is the same code u posted the first time...)
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Idris
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-7-2010 7:45, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد wrote:
> Hi Aditya,
>
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:37:32 -0600, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Have you tried using natural tables. Now you can use them with almost
>> the same amount of typing as the old table macros.
>> \startTABLE
>> \NC text 1 \NC text 2 \NC\NR
>> \NC text 3 \NC text 4 \NC\NR
>> \stopTABLE
>
> Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to
> newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?
>
> I have not used Natural Tables too much, but I can switch to those for
> future work and consider Tables deprecated for most purposes.
>
> Mainly a pedagogical/practical question: better to have one good way to
> do things than burdening folks with too much info...
>
>> and you have a high level interface of \setupTABLE (although I do not
>> know if natural tables support equal column widths)
>
> I guess we'll find out soon enough... ;-)

\bTABLE .. \eTABLE
\starttabulate .. \stoptabulate

tabulate is quite different and has unique properties

(there are also linetables but those are only for source code readers)

Hans


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Re: imbalanced columns

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-7-2010 7:37, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

> Also remember that the starttable macros are just a wrapper around TaBlE
> macros written by Michael Wichura. I don't know if those have enough
> hooks to support a high level interface.

indeed .. I actually should merge all the patches on TaBLe and then have 
a look at it again ... I must admit that I haven't used starttable for ages

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: imbalanced columns

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:43:44 -0600, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>  I must admit that I haven't used starttable for ages

Well then, that settles it; the current project is my last start/stoptable  
:-)

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[Peter Münster]

On Thu, Jul 15 2010, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد wrote:

> Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to 
> newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?

Hello Idris,

For me, it's yes!  But newcomers need to pay attention in some cases:
- alignment (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=427 )
- TABLEhead is repeated, TABLEfoot is not
  (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=116 )

Cheers, Peter

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Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


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Re: Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi Peter,

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:05:19 -0600, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 15 2010, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد wrote:
>
>> Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to
>> newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?
>
> Hello Idris,
>
> For me, it's yes!  But newcomers need to pay attention in some cases:
> - alignment (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=427 )
> - TABLEhead is repeated, TABLEfoot is not
>   (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=116 )

Sure, hopefully by the time we get to that point the bugs will be fixed.

I also see that Wolfgang has wrapped some of the old Tables syntax into a  
module (as Aditya hinted)... I missed all of these developments :-)

The Tables syntax is certainly less verbose, and may be useful for  
beginners. But for pedagogical purposes it makes sense to consider  
Table/Tables deprecated, if not obsolete... So the pedagogical challenge  
is to make TABLE as easy as possible, perhaps teaching \start/stopTABLE as  
intro and \b/eTABLE as advanced.

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shīʿī Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: Tables for newbies [WAS Re: imbalanced columns]

[luigi scarso]

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2010/7/16 Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد <ishamid@colostate.edu>

> Hi Peter,
>
>
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:05:19 -0600, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:
>
>  On Thu, Jul 15 2010, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس   سماوي حامد wrote:
>>
>>  Question for all: for MkIV, should we recommend ONLY natural tables to
>>> newcomers, e.g., in a ConTeXt Book?
>>>
>>
>> Hello Idris,
>>
>> For me, it's yes!  But newcomers need to pay attention in some cases:
>> - alignment (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=427 )
>> - TABLEhead is repeated, TABLEfoot is not
>>  (see issue http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=116 )
>>
>
> Sure, hopefully by the time we get to that point the bugs will be fixed.
>
> I also see that Wolfgang has wrapped some of the old Tables syntax into a
> module (as Aditya hinted)... I missed all of these developments :-)
>
> The Tables syntax is certainly less verbose, and may be useful for
> beginners. But for pedagogical purposes it makes sense to consider
> Table/Tables deprecated, if not obsolete... So the pedagogical challenge is
> to make TABLE as easy as possible, perhaps teaching \start/stopTABLE as
> intro and \b/eTABLE as advanced.
>
>
> A top-down  approach
1) \bTABLE
2) \starttabulate
3) chapter 22 of TeXbook

1) is much easy than 2) which is much easy than 3

1) is slower than 2) which is slower than 3)

-- 
luigi

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