* XSL-FO to PDF?
@ 2010-11-09 23:22 Peter Davis
2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-09 23:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, with
ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or
more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent
information.
I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll be
generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to
process them.
Thank you.
-pd
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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-09 23:22 XSL-FO to PDF? Peter Davis @ 2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso 2010-11-10 11:28 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-10 0:16 ` Hans Hagen 2010-11-13 11:03 ` Renaud AUBIN 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2010-11-09 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Peter Davis <pfd@pfdstudio.com> wrote: > Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, with > ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or > more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent > information. > I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll be > generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to > process them. > Thank you. batik http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/batik/ -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso @ 2010-11-10 11:28 ` Peter Davis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-10 11:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 737 bytes --] On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 6:56 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Peter Davis <pfd@pfdstudio.com> wrote: > > Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, > with > > ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or > > more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent > > information. > > I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll > be > > generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to > > process them. > > Thank you. > batik > > http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/batik/ > -- > luigi > Thanks, Luigi. I'm not sure I see the connection, but I'll take a look. -pd [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1261 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-09 23:22 XSL-FO to PDF? Peter Davis 2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso @ 2010-11-10 0:16 ` Hans Hagen 2010-11-10 11:32 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-13 11:03 ` Renaud AUBIN 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-11-10 0:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 10-11-2010 12:22, Peter Davis wrote: > Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, with > ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or > more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent > information. > > I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll be > generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to > process them. there was never much interest in FO and usually such code only gets better when it's used; I have it on my todo list to rewrite the mkii specific FO processing code in mkiv as it can be done more efficient etc etc but there is not that much incentive ... in projects that I'm involved in we normally go directly from xml to pdf simply because it's faster, gives better results and takes less coding than going the fo-route; and as FO is not that much fun, I'd either need a project or see it as a challenge (btw, it's not that big a deal to rewrite the mkii code to mkiv) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-10 0:16 ` Hans Hagen @ 2010-11-10 11:32 ` Peter Davis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-10 11:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1680 bytes --] On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 10-11-2010 12:22, Peter Davis wrote: > >> Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, >> with >> ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or >> more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent >> information. >> >> I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll be >> generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to >> process them. >> > > there was never much interest in FO and usually such code only gets better > when it's used; I have it on my todo list to rewrite the mkii specific FO > processing code in mkiv as it can be done more efficient etc etc but there > is not that much incentive ... in projects that I'm involved in we normally > go directly from xml to pdf simply because it's faster, gives better results > and takes less coding than going the fo-route; and as FO is not that much > fun, I'd either need a project or see it as a challenge (btw, it's not that > big a deal to rewrite the mkii code to mkiv) > > Hans > Thanks, Hans. I can certainly understand that FO has not gotten much attention. In our case, though, this is the XML format we're starting with. It's not a matter of converting other xml to FO. I'd be happy to look at the mkii code, but considering that I'm brand spanking new to ConTeXt, I don't expect to make any great strides there for a while. Is it possible to put a setup inside an xmlsetup? For example, if the xml specifies a page size, can I put a setup for that inside the xmlsetup that handles that element? Thank you, -pd [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2222 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-09 23:22 XSL-FO to PDF? Peter Davis 2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso 2010-11-10 0:16 ` Hans Hagen @ 2010-11-13 11:03 ` Renaud AUBIN 2010-11-13 15:14 ` Peter Davis 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Renaud AUBIN @ 2010-11-13 11:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Uh ? Give FOP a try… http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? Renaud Le 10/11/2010 00:22, Peter Davis a écrit : > Is there some recent information on using XML, and specifically XSL-FO, with > ConTeXt? The pages on the contextgarden wiki appear to be 5 years old or > more, and even the archive of this list seem pretty sparse on recent > information. > > I'm trying to find the most direct route from XSL-FO to PS or PDF. I'll be > generating hundreds or thousands of XSL-FO documents, and would like to > process them. > > Thank you. > > -pd > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-13 11:03 ` Renaud AUBIN @ 2010-11-13 15:14 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-14 21:31 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-13 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 11/13/10 6:03 AM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: > Uh ? Give FOP a try… http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html > Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? Actually, I could write some XSLT to convert the XSL-FO into TeX or ConTeXt. But I was thinking it might be beneficial to use ConTeXt to process the XML (XSL-FO) directly ... get it all under one roof, so to speak. Thanks, -pd -- -------- Peter Davis The Tech Curmudgeon - http://www.techcurmudgeon.com Ideas Great and Dumb - http://www.ideasgreatanddumb.com ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-13 15:14 ` Peter Davis @ 2010-11-14 21:31 ` Hans Hagen 2010-11-14 21:36 ` Peter Davis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-11-14 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 13-11-2010 4:14, Peter Davis wrote: > > On 11/13/10 6:03 AM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: >> Uh ? Give FOP a try… http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html >> Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? > > Actually, I could write some XSLT to convert the XSL-FO into TeX or > ConTeXt. But I was thinking it might be beneficial to use ConTeXt to > process the XML (XSL-FO) directly ... get it all under one roof, so to > speak. faster too ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-14 21:31 ` Hans Hagen @ 2010-11-14 21:36 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-14 22:48 ` Renaud AUBIN 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-14 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1070 bytes --] On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 13-11-2010 4:14, Peter Davis wrote: > >> >> On 11/13/10 6:03 AM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: >> >>> Uh ? Give FOP a try… http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html >>> Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? >>> >> >> Actually, I could write some XSLT to convert the XSL-FO into TeX or >> ConTeXt. But I was thinking it might be beneficial to use ConTeXt to >> process the XML (XSL-FO) directly ... get it all under one roof, so to >> speak. >> > > faster too Interesting point. I initially assumed it would be faster to do all my XML processing in ConTeXt, but it occurred to me that perhaps using XSLT to or even home-grown XML processing, I could generate a stream of TeX that could be processed while I'm still producing it. So one process might be looking at successive data records and generating TeX for the various pages, and another process could be simultaneously running TeX to typeset those pages. Plausible? Thank you. -pd [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1712 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-14 21:36 ` Peter Davis @ 2010-11-14 22:48 ` Renaud AUBIN 2010-11-14 23:17 ` Peter Davis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Renaud AUBIN @ 2010-11-14 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2700 bytes --] XSLT is fully adapted to XML/XML(fo or other target schema) since it was the design basis… My experience is: − good xslt is (relatively) easy to design as soon as you master the underlying data model − xsltproc is REALLY REALLY fast for xslt 1 processing − if you want something smarter, go for java with saxon/xerces, which is performant too… I'm the devil's advocate but what's your need to use ConTeXt. I have not read all your threads but if you just need: − to produce pdfs from xml data − without advanced typesettings you could use xslt to produce DocBook 5 xml file, include them using <xi:include href="./data/stuff.xml"/>, configure your layout with an intermediate xslt + Fo xml config… Once more, it depends on your original ecosystem and constraints… If you provide a use case, I should provide a sample if you don't need it within a couple of hours (but a couple of days)… Best regards, Renaud Le 14/11/2010 22:36, Peter Davis a écrit : > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > > >> On 13-11-2010 4:14, Peter Davis wrote: >> >> >>> On 11/13/10 6:03 AM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Uh ? Give FOP a try… http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html >>>> Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? >>>> >>>> >>> Actually, I could write some XSLT to convert the XSL-FO into TeX or >>> ConTeXt. But I was thinking it might be beneficial to use ConTeXt to >>> process the XML (XSL-FO) directly ... get it all under one roof, so to >>> speak. >>> >>> >> faster too >> > > Interesting point. I initially assumed it would be faster to do all my XML > processing in ConTeXt, but it occurred to me that perhaps using XSLT to or > even home-grown XML processing, I could generate a stream of TeX that could > be processed while I'm still producing it. So one process might be looking > at successive data records and generating TeX for the various pages, and > another process could be simultaneously running TeX to typeset those pages. > > > Plausible? > > Thank you. > > -pd > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 4048 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: XSL-FO to PDF? 2010-11-14 22:48 ` Renaud AUBIN @ 2010-11-14 23:17 ` Peter Davis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Peter Davis @ 2010-11-14 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4884 bytes --] Hi, Renaud, In a nutshell, my use is a form of database publishing from two XML files. The first file is *like* XSL-FO, but also contains some namespaced constructs. This XML file is the page template ... it represents the layout, the static portions of the page, and the locations where various "live" data should get plugged in. The second XML contains the live data, extracted from a database. There might be thousands or tens of thousands of records of information to publish. So for each main element in the live data file, we use the template file, but plug in the live data and generate a beautiful, formatted document. The data may contain plain text, text with some formatting, and references to graphics and images in various formats. It definitely needs to support "advanced" typesetting (beautiful paragraphs, tracking and kerning, ligatures, multiple languages, etc.). It needs to support full color (mostly CMYK), most widely used fonts (T1, TT/OT, CID, etc.) It also needs to produce finished pages at a rate of thousands or tens of thousands of pages per minute. TeX has the features I want, but I'm still trying to determine the best way to use it. ConTeXt is particularly attractive for its built-in XML support, simplefonts support, pdfTeX support and minimals packaging, among other things. -pd On 11/14/2010 5:48 PM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: > XSLT is fully adapted to XML/XML(fo or other target schema) since it > was the design basis… > > My experience is: > − good xslt is (relatively) easy to design as soon as you master the > underlying data model > − xsltproc is REALLY REALLY fast for xslt 1 processing > − if you want something smarter, go for java with saxon/xerces, which > is performant too… > > I'm the devil's advocate but what's your need to use ConTeXt. I have > not read all your threads but if you just need: > − to produce pdfs from xml data > − without advanced typesettings > you could use xslt to produce DocBook 5 xml file, include them using > <xi:include href="./data/stuff.xml"/>, configure your layout with an > intermediate xslt + Fo xml config… > > Once more, it depends on your original ecosystem and constraints… > > If you provide a use case, I should provide a sample if you don't need > it within a couple of hours (but a couple of days)… > > Best regards, > > Renaud > > > Le 14/11/2010 22:36, Peter Davis a écrit : >> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: >> >> >>> On 13-11-2010 4:14, Peter Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 11/13/10 6:03 AM, Renaud AUBIN wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Uh ? Give FOP a try…http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.0/index.html >>>>> Could you describe your target chain ? XML → FO → PDF ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Actually, I could write some XSLT to convert the XSL-FO into TeX or >>>> ConTeXt. But I was thinking it might be beneficial to use ConTeXt to >>>> process the XML (XSL-FO) directly ... get it all under one roof, so to >>>> speak. >>>> >>>> >>> faster too >>> >> Interesting point. I initially assumed it would be faster to do all my XML >> processing in ConTeXt, but it occurred to me that perhaps using XSLT to or >> even home-grown XML processing, I could generate a stream of TeX that could >> be processed while I'm still producing it. So one process might be looking >> at successive data records and generating TeX for the various pages, and >> another process could be simultaneously running TeX to typeset those pages. >> >> >> Plausible? >> >> Thank you. >> >> -pd >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl /http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage :http://www.pragma-ade.nl /http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive :http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki :http://contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ -- -------- Peter Davis The Tech Curmudgeon - http://www.techcurmudgeon.com Ideas Great and Dumb - http://www.ideasgreatanddumb.com [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 7742 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-11-14 23:17 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2010-11-09 23:22 XSL-FO to PDF? Peter Davis 2010-11-09 23:56 ` luigi scarso 2010-11-10 11:28 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-10 0:16 ` Hans Hagen 2010-11-10 11:32 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-13 11:03 ` Renaud AUBIN 2010-11-13 15:14 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-14 21:31 ` Hans Hagen 2010-11-14 21:36 ` Peter Davis 2010-11-14 22:48 ` Renaud AUBIN 2010-11-14 23:17 ` Peter Davis
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