From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/66916 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jaroslav Hajtmar Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:16 +0100 Message-ID: <4D7BD148.5050605@gyza.cz> References: <874o7bvy5r.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <25576DBA-7D75-4B8F-8934-35CC9DBECA05@uni-bonn.de> <87ei6cvlfr.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <430B533D-33EE-4697-94E0-04DB7744060A@awi.de> <1B7D7EDC-2721-4DBF-9682-34E57A19FF26@awi.de> Reply-To: hajtmar@gyza.cz, mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1299960196 3663 80.91.229.12 (12 Mar 2011 20:03:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:03:16 +0000 (UTC) To: ntg-context@ntg.nl Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat Mar 12 21:03:11 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PyV1o-0004Jo-RC for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:03:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D1CAAEF; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:03:08 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id G7pw+8kWNIJc; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:03:08 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEF1CAAFC; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:32 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0D8CAAF9 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:31 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id AKshM7ek7j-6 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:26 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (filter1-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.69]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FADCAAFE for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:19 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from psi2.forpsi.com (smtpa.forpsi.com [81.2.195.204]) by filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p2CK2I3w003605 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:02:19 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 17875 invoked by uid 89); 12 Mar 2011 20:02:16 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.20.138?) (hajtmar@gyza.cz@88.103.230.14) by psi02 with ESMTPA; 12 Mar 2011 20:02:16 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; cs; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 In-Reply-To: X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=81.2.195.204; country=CZ; latitude=49.7500; longitude=15.5000; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=49.7500,15.5000&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 06Eik2ixI - 6b7670fff9d7 - 20110312 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.69 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:66916 Archived-At: Hello ConTeXist. I installed ConTeXt minimals until pretty late. Before, I used the = context in the TeXLive. For a long time I really thought that Minimals = are "incomplete" versions of minimal and that there was something more. = I was very pleasantly surprised at how easily Minimals installed and is = very good, it is easy to automatically update the version. MkII I = completely stopped using to create new documents using the MkII and = translate only the old stuff. I know from experience that newcomers and MkII MKIV confusing and I have = sometimes a problem with incompatibility, because I have long used the MkII. Personally I would advocate a clear separation of the MkII and MKIV in = the garden and change "minimals" name to the name that is so misleading = - eg directly MarkTeX :-). Greetings Jaroslav Dne 12.3.2011 17:20, Proch=E1zka Luk=E1=9A napsal(a): > Hello, > > my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones): > >> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii? > > (Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt =3D MkIV.) > >> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals? > > The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be = > also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal". > > Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. = > fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras". > >> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers? >> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden = >> for search engine requests? > > The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. = > Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not = > explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example. > > Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. = > But also many command options are not explained at all. > > From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search = > the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he = > should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?), = > 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to = > post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do = > answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently). > > In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. = > It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document = > Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt = > and XML...). > > It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or = > the Ctx manual (.pdf). > >> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users? > > For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup = > (module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to = > that been generated by LaTeX. > > Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you = > recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's = > signature is also unmatchable). > > If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating = > from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look = > (letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too = > different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very = > "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx = > defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons). > > The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be = > systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you = > must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the = > result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements. > > ---- > > Treat all above as a personal point of view. > > I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active = > programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort = > which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the = > documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features = > (and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones. > > Best regards, > > Lukas > > > _________________________________________________________________________= __________ = > > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry = > to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / = > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > _________________________________________________________________________= __________ = > > ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________