From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/68624 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Hans Hagen Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Hyphenating compound words in MKIV & microtypographyy Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:14 +0200 Message-ID: <4DDA8AE2.60902@wxs.nl> References: <20110523120704.GA9754@innsmouth.lan> <4DDA55B2.8090005@wxs.nl> <20110523155403.GA13604@innsmouth.lan> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1306168067 26038 80.91.229.12 (23 May 2011 16:27:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 16:27:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users To: Otso Helenius Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Mon May 23 18:27:43 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QOXyo-0005rH-5r for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E00CAD45; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XZ3sJ3ks7ubL; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:38 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898DCCAD41; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:38 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA3BCAD41 for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 2HJtn3s4jSZR for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:25 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter4-til.mf.surf.net (filter4-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.220]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69ED1CAD39 for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:25 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from smtp.ziggozakelijk.nl (D57D1DA2.static.ziggozakelijk.nl [213.125.29.162]) by filter4-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p4NGRO5r000806 for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:24 +0200 X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=10.100.1.100; Original-Received: from [10.100.1.100] (unverified [10.100.1.100]) by pragma-net.nl (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 1324-1713362 for multiple; Mon, 23 May 2011 18:27:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.10 ThunderBrowse/3.3.5 In-Reply-To: <20110523155403.GA13604@innsmouth.lan> X-Authenticated-User: hagen@controller-9 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=213.125.29.162; country=NL; region=11; city=Den Haag; latitude=52.0833; longitude=4.3000; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.0833,4.3000&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 05EL4ro4L - 553c5c87be6c - 20110523 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.220 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:68624 Archived-At: On 23-5-2011 5:54, Otso Helenius wrote: >> it produces larger files, take more runtime and in most cases does >> not look better at all; for instance one can argue that protrusion >> gives more width but at the same time it introduces the boundary >> condition that some characters have to hang; or take hz (expansion) >> ... when applied so much that it gets visible, it will also lead to >> similar shapes in successive lines to look different >> >> so, just enabling these features assuming that the output looks >> better is debatable (sometimes adding or removing a word is more >> effective) > > I agree, in many cases automatic layout of content can look horrific beca= use the algorithms > aren't able to solve each possible case in a near optimal way (while we a= s humans are). > And also, there is no question about it, *every* setting should be possib= le to turn on and off > depending on the situation. > > Just as with WYSIWYG tools such as InDesign, manual adjustment of layout = is needed to achieve > optimal results. But my actual complaint is this: the example I pasted wa= s a very trivial > and simple typesetting task. Even the current versions MS Office can auto= matically achieve > acceptable paragraph look with the given input. In such case there should= not be any need > to manually adjust spacing and expansion of words nor forcing the column = into a ragged one. > > The output of this MKIV source: > > \mainlanguage[fi] > \language[fi] > \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=3Dquality, expansion=3Dqu= ality] > \setupalign[hz, hanging, spacing] > \starttext > \startcolumns[n=3D2] > \dorecurse{10}{kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari ymp=E4rist=F6liiketoiminta= ep=E4j=E4rjestelm=E4llisyydellistyttym=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n j=E4= rjestelm=E4llisentelentelem=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n h=E4=E4y=F6aie k= olmivaihekilowattituntimittari ymp=E4rist=F6liiketoiminta ep=E4j=E4rjestelm= =E4llisyydellistyttym=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n j=E4rjestelm=E4llisent= elentelem=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n h=E4=E4y=F6aie} > \stopcolumns > \stoptext > > can be downloaded here: https://pi-xi.net/share/context_hyphen.pdf > > I also wrote a "close as possible" equivalent of the code above in LaTeX = and > compiled it with pdfTeX (TL 2011): > > \documentclass[12pt, twocolumn, a4paper, finnish]{article} > \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} > \usepackage[finnish]{babel} > \usepackage{ae} > \usepackage[auto=3Dtrue, spacing=3Dtrue, kerning=3Dtrue, tracking=3Dtrue,= protrusion=3Dtrue, expansion=3Dtrue]{microtype} > \usepackage{pgffor} > \setlength{\parindent}{0mm} > \newcommand{\Repeat}[2]{\foreach \n in {1,...,#1}{#2}} > \begin{document} > \foreach \n in {1,...,10}{kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari ymp=E4rist=F6li= iketoiminta ep=E4j=E4rjestelm=E4llisyydellistyttym=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k= =E4=E4n j=E4rjestelm=E4llisentelentelem=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n h=E4= =E4y=F6aie kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari ymp=E4rist=F6liiketoiminta ep=E4= j=E4rjestelm=E4llisyydellistyttym=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n j=E4rjeste= lm=E4llisentelentelem=E4tt=F6myydell=E4ns=E4k=E4=E4n h=E4=E4y=F6aie} > \end{document} > > The LaTeX example can be downloaded here: https://pi-xi.net/share/latex_h= yphen.pdf > > As can be seen, the neither versions have any specific adjustments done b= y hand: both > only have the microtypographic features turned on. There is no comparison= , the pdfTeX > version looks superior: there are no rivers, all lines are justified to e= qual length, > and the expansion and spacing are both acceptable. (1) The 'spacing' options does not work and even gives an error in mkiv) = so remove that one. What version of context are you running? I've = already fotgotten about it but I think it was an experimental pdftesx = feature with side effects. In pdftex hz and protrusion is also somewhat = tricky as it can bleed from one font instance to another (due to = traditional tex's internal font sharing), although context takes some = precautions. (2) But, more important: add \setuplayout[width=3Dmiddle] to give context = a more similar opportunity to produce something acceptable. You're now = giving context a disadvantage of narrower columns. (3) You can remove the \language as you already set \mainlanguage. (4) In context protrusion and expansion is a font property and applying = it globally to all fonts (with some flag) will not happen. Actually, in = some situations you need to turn it on explicitly (imaging hanging = happening when you're doing a table). I don't know what latex's default layout setup is but if you want to do = an experiment, you need to make sure that you use the same widths of = columns. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________