\externalfigure and file size

\externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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Hey list,

I have a number of \externalfigure commands to typeset some svg images.
This is often handy to have them vectorized because it allows for the
user to zoom in on diagrams of great detail. 

In other situations, I find that for images that are not so important,
they would benefit from ConTeXt rasterizing them when they are imported.
The reason for this is I find some vector images get enormously bloated
when they are typeset. As an example, I have a Logo.svg of only 6.8 KB.
The m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf intermediate ConTeXt generates is nearly a megabyte
in size. Why? I have no idea, as they both appear to be the same image
with the same gausian blur.

Is there a flag I can pass certain instances of \externalfigure that
tells the image processing backend that a simple rasterized version of
the figure is fine? Or is there a better approach? I don't want to
pre-convert all of these images to raster formats.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 01:25, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
>
> In other situations, I find that for images that are not so important,
> they would benefit from ConTeXt rasterizing them when they are imported.
> The reason for this is I find some vector images get enormously bloated
> when they are typeset. As an example, I have a Logo.svg of only 6.8 KB.
> The m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf intermediate ConTeXt generates is nearly a megabyte
> in size. Why? I have no idea, as they both appear to be the same image
> with the same gausian blur.

If original svg image is 7 KB, the PDF should not be any bigger apart
from the header and maybe embded fonts. However if you are using some
smooth shading, it might be that the program which does the conversion
is performing a poor job and converts shading into hundreds of thin
strips of different colors.

I would try to use a different tool for conversion into PDF (not into
raster image, but into vector image) before running ConTeXt. I don't
know which one, but you can try to experiment.

Mojca
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[luigi scarso]

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On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> Hey list,
>
> I have a number of \externalfigure commands to typeset some svg images.
> This is often handy to have them vectorized because it allows for the
> user to zoom in on diagrams of great detail.
>
> In other situations, I find that for images that are not so important,
> they would benefit from ConTeXt rasterizing them when they are imported.
> The reason for this is I find some vector images get enormously bloated
> when they are typeset. As an example, I have a Logo.svg of only 6.8 KB.
> The m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf intermediate ConTeXt generates is nearly a megabyte
> in size. Why? I have no idea, as they both appear to be the same image
> with the same gausian blur.
>
> Is there a flag I can pass certain instances of \externalfigure that
> tells the image processing backend that a simple rasterized version of
> the figure is fine? Or is there a better approach? I don't want to
> pre-convert all of these images to raster formats.
>
>
ConTeXt uses inkscape, iirc. So try to see what inkscape says about your
file.
If you are under linux, you can also use rsvg .

-- 
luigi

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Peter Rolf]

Am 19.01.2012 01:25, schrieb Kip Warner:
> Hey list,
> 
> I have a number of \externalfigure commands to typeset some svg images.
> This is often handy to have them vectorized because it allows for the
> user to zoom in on diagrams of great detail. 
> 
> In other situations, I find that for images that are not so important,
> they would benefit from ConTeXt rasterizing them when they are imported.
> The reason for this is I find some vector images get enormously bloated
> when they are typeset. As an example, I have a Logo.svg of only 6.8 KB.
> The m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf intermediate ConTeXt generates is nearly a megabyte
> in size. Why? I have no idea, as they both appear to be the same image
> with the same gausian blur.
>

Probably because the exported PDF contains a raster image (at least the
blured part). If you use Inkscape to save your SVG logo as PDF, you will
see a dialog box with an option for this (rasterize filter effects).
Remove the hook and you'll get a small, but unblured PDF graphic.

Best wishes,  Peter
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 08:56 +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> If original svg image is 7 KB, the PDF should not be any bigger apart
> from the header and maybe embded fonts. However if you are using some
> smooth shading, it might be that the program which does the conversion
> is performing a poor job and converts shading into hundreds of thin
> strips of different colors.

I'm not sure what program is being used, as I just call context and
whatever its using to take the svg specified in the \externalfigure to
typeset is what it seems to be using.

-- 
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 09:23 +0100, luigi scarso wrote:
> ConTeXt uses inkscape, iirc. So try to see what inkscape says about your
> file.

Are you sure about that? ConTeXt doesn't seem to list inkscape as a
dependency on my distro:

apt-cache show context* | grep -i inkscape
(gives nothing)

-- 
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 11:58 +0100, Peter Rolf wrote:
> Probably because the exported PDF contains a raster image (at least the
> blured part). If you use Inkscape to save your SVG logo as PDF, you will
> see a dialog box with an option for this (rasterize filter effects).
> Remove the hook and you'll get a small, but unblured PDF graphic.

Hey Peter. The original SVG is about 7KB. With rasterize off and
exported to PDF, its under 2KB. With rasterize on, its still only 78KB.
Whatever ConTeXt is doing with it, that 7KB SVG gets bloated to nearly a
meg at 976KB. This happens as Logo.svg is transformed into intermediate
m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf. Something's up.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
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http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Pontus Lurcock]

On Thu 19 Jan 2012, Kip Warner wrote:

> Hey Peter. The original SVG is about 7KB. With rasterize off and
> exported to PDF, its under 2KB. With rasterize on, its still only 78KB.
> Whatever ConTeXt is doing with it, that 7KB SVG gets bloated to nearly a
> meg at 976KB. This happens as Logo.svg is transformed into intermediate
> m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf. Something's up.

What happens if you convert it directly using inkscape --export-pdf?

Pont
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Wagner Macedo]

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It would be good if you attach the svg file.

Could you do this?

--
Wagner Macedo


On 19 January 2012 21:01, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> Hey Peter. The original SVG is about 7KB. With rasterize off and
> exported to PDF, its under 2KB. With rasterize on, its still only 78KB.
> Whatever ConTeXt is doing with it, that 7KB SVG gets bloated to nearly a
> meg at 976KB. This happens as Logo.svg is transformed into intermediate
> m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf. Something's up.
>

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 20.01.2012 um 01:01 schrieb Kip Warner:

> On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 11:58 +0100, Peter Rolf wrote:
>> Probably because the exported PDF contains a raster image (at least the
>> blured part). If you use Inkscape to save your SVG logo as PDF, you will
>> see a dialog box with an option for this (rasterize filter effects).
>> Remove the hook and you'll get a small, but unblured PDF graphic.
> 
> Hey Peter. The original SVG is about 7KB. With rasterize off and
> exported to PDF, its under 2KB. With rasterize on, its still only 78KB.
> Whatever ConTeXt is doing with it, that 7KB SVG gets bloated to nearly a
> meg at 976KB. This happens as Logo.svg is transformed into intermediate
> m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf. Something's up.

When you look into graph-inc.lua you can see that context use

   inkscape <oldname> --export-dpi=600 -A <newname>

to convert the svg to pdf.

Wolfgang
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-19 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> Whatever ConTeXt is doing with it, that 7KB SVG gets bloated to nearly a
> meg at 976KB. This happens as Logo.svg is transformed into intermediate
> m_k_i_v_Logo.pdf.

I  had similar issues   some  weeks  ago. A  workaround
was  to  use  \pdfcompresslevel9  You  can  also   try
\maximumpdfcompression, which is apparently preferred
(see some recent thread on the list).

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 13:07 +1300, Pontus Lurcock wrote:
> What happens if you convert it directly using inkscape --export-pdf?

Still only 78 KB.

-- 
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 21:13 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> It would be good if you attach the svg file.
> 
> Could you do this?

Hey Wagner. No problem.

http://www.thevertigo.com/temp/Pic.svg

Try typesetting it with an \externalfigure and check the file size of
the intermediate that's generated.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Pontus Lurcock]

On Thu 19 Jan 2012, Kip Warner wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 21:13 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> > It would be good if you attach the svg file.
> > 
> > Could you do this?
> 
> Hey Wagner. No problem.
> 
> http://www.thevertigo.com/temp/Pic.svg

My PDF file sizes (using 2011.10.01 10:48):

  ConTeXt : 978k
  inkscape -A : 75k
  inkscape --export-dpi=600 -A : 978k

So it seems that the dpi parameter passed by ConTeXt to Inkscape is
responsible for the huge size increase.

Pont
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 01:23, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 13:07 +1300, Pontus Lurcock wrote:
>> What happens if you convert it directly using inkscape --export-pdf?
>
> Still only 78 KB.

Does it come out the way you expect it to? If yes, use that.

None of my tools are able to export this into an usable PDF (I didn't
try to install Inkscape though). But it is also true that I'm not 100
% sure if PDF knows anything about the "gaussian blur".

Mojca
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Pontus Lurcock]

On Fri 20 Jan 2012, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> None of my tools are able to export this into an usable PDF (I didn't
> try to install Inkscape though). But it is also true that I'm not 100
> % sure if PDF knows anything about the "gaussian blur".

I think this is the root of the problem: inkscape rasterizes it to
reproduce the blur in PDF, and explicitly setting the DPI to a high
value produces the huge file. Discussed at:

http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9551
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Release_notes/0.47#PDF.2C_PostScript.2C_and_EPS_export

Pont
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-19 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 09:23 +0100, luigi scarso wrote:
> > ConTeXt uses inkscape, iirc. So try to see what inkscape says about your
> > file.
> 
> Are you sure about that?

Yes:

strace -f context t 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep inkscape | grep execve

[…]
[pid 14816] execve("/usr/bin/inkscape", ["inkscape", "/home/marco/Temp/fig.svg", "--export-dpi=600", "-A", "/home/marco/Temp/m_k_i_v_fi"...],
[…]

> ConTeXt doesn't seem to list inkscape as a dependency on
> my distro:

Inkscape should not be a dependency of ConTeXt. 99.9% work
very well without inkscape. But it could be mentioned as a
“Recommendation”, as  a hint  that its  installation would
increase the functionality.

> apt-cache show context* | grep -i inkscape
> (gives nothing)

Blame the distributor.

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 21:49 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> Well, as I can see, the "problem" is inkscape switch --export-dpi which in
> grph-inc.lua has the value 600. I get same file size using inkscape -A
> --export-dpi=600.
> 
> But exporting this file (Pic.svg) without a great dpi (minimum 300) I get
> an ugly file, very sharpened where has filters.

But why should there be any implicit DPI specified with a vector
graphic? Isn't the whole point of them to allow, theoretically, infinite
resolution?

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 21:59 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> Because filters.
> 
> According to
> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Release_notes/0.47#PDF.2C_PostScript.2C_and_EPS_export,
> sent by Pontus Lurcock. 

Thanks Wagner.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 01:51 +0100, Marco wrote:
> Blame the distributor.

I just forwarded your observation to the package maintainer. Should be
straightforward to solve with a line in debian/control.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 01:51, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 21:49 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
>> Well, as I can see, the "problem" is inkscape switch --export-dpi which in
>> grph-inc.lua has the value 600. I get same file size using inkscape -A
>> --export-dpi=600.
>>
>> But exporting this file (Pic.svg) without a great dpi (minimum 300) I get
>> an ugly file, very sharpened where has filters.
>
> But why should there be any implicit DPI specified with a vector
> graphic? Isn't the whole point of them to allow, theoretically, infinite
> resolution?

Yes, but this is only true as long as your graphic can be represented
reliably in the target format. And yours cannot.

It is like asking for conversion of a vector image of a circle into a
target format that only supports straight lines (also vector format,
but without support for splines).

http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9551

If this is your own graphic, you need to alter it in such a way that
it will be representable with what PDF is capable of doing. See the
chapter on smooth shading. You can do a lot with that, but it might
require a bit of extra effort (and then maybe hunting developers to
fix rendering bugs; Apple doesn't know how to render smooth shading
properly and even used to crash).

Mojca
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 01:21 +0100, Marco wrote:
> I  had similar issues   some  weeks  ago. A  workaround
> was  to  use  \pdfcompresslevel9  You  can  also   try
> \maximumpdfcompression, which is apparently preferred
> (see some recent thread on the list).
> 
> Marco

Thanks Marco. It went from 9.9 MB to 9.5 MB. It's a small delta, but
still helpful.

On a related note, what is the difference between these three
statements?

\setupbackend[level=9]
\pdfcompresslevel9
\maximumpdfcompression

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 01:14 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> When you look into graph-inc.lua you can see that context use
> 
>    inkscape <oldname> --export-dpi=600 -A <newname>
> 
> to convert the svg to pdf.

Hey Wolfgang. Why does a vector image need to be rasterized in a PDF, I
guess is what I'm still confused with? It seems like DPI is a concept
applicable only to rasterized graphics. Or is it that the PDF backend is
normally fine with vector graphics, it's just that this one in
particular contains a Gaussian blur that it has to rasterize because it
cannot dynamically reproduce?

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 01:45 +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Does it come out the way you expect it to? If yes, use that.

Visually, yes, it's fine. In terms of size, no its not the way I expect.

> None of my tools are able to export this into an usable PDF (I didn't
> try to install Inkscape though). But it is also true that I'm not 100
> % sure if PDF knows anything about the "gaussian blur".

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think the problem is the PDF
format chokes on the Gaussian blur and so it has to rasterize it.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 02:03 +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Yes, but this is only true as long as your graphic can be represented
> reliably in the target format. And yours cannot.

Hey Mojca. Yes, that makes sense now. I had assumed incorrectly that PDF
implemented everything SVG does.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[luigi scarso]

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On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 2:30 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 02:03 +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> > Yes, but this is only true as long as your graphic can be represented
> > reliably in the target format. And yours cannot.
>
> Hey Mojca. Yes, that makes sense now. I had assumed incorrectly that PDF
> implemented everything SVG does.
>
>
You can also try the reverse way with ipe
http://ipe7.sourceforge.net/
and then convert the pdf in svg with inkscape or iperender

-- 
luigi

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 20-1-2012 01:51, Marco wrote:

>> ConTeXt doesn't seem to list inkscape as a dependency on
>> my distro:
>
> Inkscape should not be a dependency of ConTeXt. 99.9% work
> very well without inkscape. But it could be mentioned as a
> “Recommendation”, as  a hint  that its  installation would
> increase the functionality.

There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to 
get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some 
depedency on X (last time I tried). In a similar fashion there is no 
dependency on GhostScript or GraphicMagick or Zint.

Hans

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-19 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> On a related note, what  is the difference between these
> three statements?
>
> \setupbackend[level=9]

I have no idea, I never used it.

> \pdfcompresslevel9

AFAIK  it  compresses  the  text  objects.  9  is  maximum
compression. It's a low level command.

> \maximumpdfcompression

\normalprotected\def\maximumpdfcompression{%
	\pdfobjcompresslevel\plusnine  \pdfcompresslevel\plusnine }

Sets the text and object  compression to the maximum value
(which is  9). The  command is considered  to be  a higher
level command, see

http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20111229.184755.b0199f53.en.html

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 20-1-2012 11:18, Marco wrote:

> Sets the text and object  compression to the maximum value
> (which is  9). The  command is considered  to be  a higher
> level command, see
>
> http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20111229.184755.b0199f53.en.html

keep in mind that on the average the defaults are a good compromise 
between speed and bytes (both in writing and reading)

Hans




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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 09:55 +0100, luigi scarso wrote:
> You can also try the reverse way with ipe
> http://ipe7.sourceforge.net/
> and then convert the pdf in svg with inkscape or iperender

Thanks Luigi.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:08 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to 
> get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some 
> depedency on X (last time I tried). In a similar fashion there is no 
> dependency on GhostScript or GraphicMagick or Zint.

So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure? Does it
always use inkscape, or only sometimes?

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[luigi scarso]

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On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 09:55 +0100, luigi scarso wrote:
> > You can also try the reverse way with ipe
> > http://ipe7.sourceforge.net/
> > and then convert the pdf in svg with inkscape or iperender
>
> Thanks Luigi.
>
Uh uh .. I forget Metapost.
Metapost can ouput svg files.
-- 
luigi

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Wagner Macedo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 437 bytes --]

I just tested now. With Inkscape 0.48.2 r9819, I could do the conversion
job on pure console.

But, on the other hand, as nothing is perfect, to install Inkscape, it's
needed many X dependencies.

On 20 January 2012 06:08, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to
> get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some depedency
> on X (last time I tried).

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 21-1-2012 00:05, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:08 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to
>> get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some
>> depedency on X (last time I tried). In a similar fashion there is no
>> dependency on GhostScript or GraphicMagick or Zint.
>
> So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure? Does it
> always use inkscape, or only sometimes?

no, png, jpg and pdf are supported directly (as is mp) but fo rother 
formats it will either try to find a replacement (there is a whole chain 
of lookups) or it will try to run one of the configured converters ... with

\enabletrackers[graphics.*]

you can see what happens



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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[luigi scarso]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 896 bytes --]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 21-1-2012 00:05, Kip Warner wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:08 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>
>>> There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to
>>> get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some
>>> depedency on X (last time I tried). In a similar fashion there is no
>>> dependency on GhostScript or GraphicMagick or Zint.
>>>
>>
>> So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure? Does it
>> always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
>>
>
> no, png, jpg and pdf are supported directly (as is mp) but fo rother
> formats it will either try to find a replacement (there is a whole chain of
> lookups) or it will try to run one of the configured converters ... with
>
and swf, even if I have not full tested (basically you can test only with
acroreader 10)

-- 
luigi

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 21-1-2012 01:12, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>
>> On 21-1-2012 00:05, Kip Warner wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:08 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is no such depedency .. actually, i found it rather impossible to
>>>> get an inkscape running on a headless linux box as there is some
>>>> depedency on X (last time I tried). In a similar fashion there is no
>>>> dependency on GhostScript or GraphicMagick or Zint.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure? Does it
>>> always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
>>>
>>
>> no, png, jpg and pdf are supported directly (as is mp) but fo rother
>> formats it will either try to find a replacement (there is a whole chain of
>> lookups) or it will try to run one of the configured converters ... with
>>
> and swf, even if I have not full tested (basically you can test only with
> acroreader 10)

sure, a few of those 'supported media types' are also dealt with (in 
fact I think that one can embed svg in a pdf document given some plugin

Hans


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure?
> Does it always use inkscape, or only sometimes?

If the  image type is  supported by the TeX  engine (jpeg,
png, pdf, mps) it is directly included. SVG files inkscape
is  called to  convert  the  SVG to  PDF.  For EPS  images
ghostscript is used:

strace results:

execve("/usr/bin/gs", ["gs", "-q", "-sDEVICE=pdfwrite",
	"-dNOPAUSE", "-dNOCACHE", "-dBATCH",
	"-dAutoRotatePages=/None", "-dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress",
	"-dEPSCrop", "-sOutputFile=m_k_i_v_graph.pdf",
	"graph.eps", "-c", "quit"], [/* 55 vars */]) 

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:22 +0100, Marco wrote:
> On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
> 
> > So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure?
> > Does it always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
> 
> If the  image type is  supported by the TeX  engine (jpeg,
> png, pdf, mps) it is directly included. SVG files inkscape
> is  called to  convert  the  SVG to  PDF.  For EPS  images
> ghostscript is used:
> 
> strace results:
> 
> execve("/usr/bin/gs", ["gs", "-q", "-sDEVICE=pdfwrite",
> 	"-dNOPAUSE", "-dNOCACHE", "-dBATCH",
> 	"-dAutoRotatePages=/None", "-dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress",
> 	"-dEPSCrop", "-sOutputFile=m_k_i_v_graph.pdf",
> 	"graph.eps", "-c", "quit"], [/* 55 vars */]) 

Right, but since the average end user probably won't know that, doesn't
that still suggest Inkscape be listed as a dependency?

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:22 +0100, Marco wrote:
> > On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure?
> > > Does it always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
> > 
> > If the  image type is  supported by the TeX  engine (jpeg,
> > png, pdf, mps) it is directly included. SVG files inkscape
> > is  called to  convert  the  SVG to  PDF.  For EPS  images
> > ghostscript is used:
> > 
> > strace results:
> > 
> > execve("/usr/bin/gs", ["gs", "-q", "-sDEVICE=pdfwrite",
> > 	"-dNOPAUSE", "-dNOCACHE", "-dBATCH",
> > 	"-dAutoRotatePages=/None", "-dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress",
> > 	"-dEPSCrop", "-sOutputFile=m_k_i_v_graph.pdf",
> > 	"graph.eps", "-c", "quit"], [/* 55 vars */]) 
> 
> Right, but since the average end user probably won't know that, doesn't
> that still suggest Inkscape be listed as a dependency?

As  I  mentioned before  99.9%  of  the system  work  fine
without additional  programs. You need inkscape  only when
you  want to  include  SVG images.  Having  inkscape as  a
dependency  means a  huge  bunch of  data  and disk  space
(inkscape incl. all dependencies like X,…).

However, these external helpers (like ghostscript as well)
should be listed as a recommendation or suggestion [not as
dependency]).  In  that case  the  user  is notified  that
he/she might get a benefit installing these programs.

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:42 +0100, Marco wrote:
> On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:22 +0100, Marco wrote:
> > > On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure?
> > > > Does it always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
> > > 
> > > If the  image type is  supported by the TeX  engine (jpeg,
> > > png, pdf, mps) it is directly included. SVG files inkscape
> > > is  called to  convert  the  SVG to  PDF.  For EPS  images
> > > ghostscript is used:
> > > 
> > > strace results:
> > > 
> > > execve("/usr/bin/gs", ["gs", "-q", "-sDEVICE=pdfwrite",
> > > 	"-dNOPAUSE", "-dNOCACHE", "-dBATCH",
> > > 	"-dAutoRotatePages=/None", "-dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress",
> > > 	"-dEPSCrop", "-sOutputFile=m_k_i_v_graph.pdf",
> > > 	"graph.eps", "-c", "quit"], [/* 55 vars */]) 
> > 
> > Right, but since the average end user probably won't know that, doesn't
> > that still suggest Inkscape be listed as a dependency?
> 
> No, not as dependency. As  I mentioned before 99.9% of the
> system  work fine  without additional  programs. You  need
> inkscape only when you want  to include SVG images. Having
> inkscape as  a dependency means  a huge bunch of  data and
> disk space (inkscape incl. all dependencies like X,¿).
> 
> However, these external helpers (like ghostscript as well)
> should be  listed as  a recommendation  [not dependency]),
> that  way the  user is  notified that  he/she might  get a
> benefit installing these programs.
> 
> Marco
> 

Understood. I've copied the package maintainer for a popular ConTeXt
Ubuntu PPA.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 21-1-2012 01:27, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:22 +0100, Marco wrote:
>> On 2012-01-20 Kip Warner<kip@thevertigo.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> So what does ConTeXt do when it typesets an \externalfigure?
>>> Does it always use inkscape, or only sometimes?
>>
>> If the  image type is  supported by the TeX  engine (jpeg,
>> png, pdf, mps) it is directly included. SVG files inkscape
>> is  called to  convert  the  SVG to  PDF.  For EPS  images
>> ghostscript is used:
>>
>> strace results:
>>
>> execve("/usr/bin/gs", ["gs", "-q", "-sDEVICE=pdfwrite",
>> 	"-dNOPAUSE", "-dNOCACHE", "-dBATCH",
>> 	"-dAutoRotatePages=/None", "-dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress",
>> 	"-dEPSCrop", "-sOutputFile=m_k_i_v_graph.pdf",
>> 	"graph.eps", "-c", "quit"], [/* 55 vars */])
>
> Right, but since the average end user probably won't know that, doesn't
> that still suggest Inkscape be listed as a dependency?

no, because not all users use svg (just an not all users use fonts 
defined in type-* files) and also because inkscape is close to 
impossible to install without x present which would render context 
'unuseable due to a depency not being resolved'

(in fact there is then also a dependency on a viewer)

Hans



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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 21-1-2012 01:40, Marco wrote:

> However, these external helpers (like ghostscript as well)
> should be listed as a recommendation or suggestion [not as
> dependency]).  In  that case  the  user  is notified  that
> he/she might get a benefit installing these programs.

maybe a wiki page is a good start for that

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[luigi scarso]

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On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 1:27 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:
>
> Right, but since the average end user probably won't know that, doesn't
> that still suggest Inkscape be listed as a dependency?
>
> hm,  no.
Suppose this situation: me and you agree on a context beta version and a
pdf reader and you send me your tex file with
1) a png/jpeg image or a pdf file as externalfigure. Then my pdf and your
pdf must be the same, and on average the reader will show the same result.
Otherwise probably is a bug.
2) a swf. Then my pdf and your pdf must be the same, but probably the
reader will not show the same result -- basically only acroread is able to
show swf inside a pdf, and it depends to the OS and version
3) a svg image. PDF spec. doesn't support SVG, so we must also agree on the
same program to convert the svg into a bitmap or vector image, and this is
a problem: as you have seen, the conversion require a bit of experience.
After all, it's not strange if inkscape 0.40 and 0.48 display the same svg
in different way --- and the same for the pdfs.

Actually, only an expert user can use inkscape to automatically convert an
svg to pdf/png without (appreciable) errors, and this kind of user is also
able to install the correct version of inkscape (which is much easier to
install under windows then linux,btw). So, if you are creating a svg by
tourself, it's better to check that the pdf and png are the same if you
want to be sure that your image will be printed/display correctly --- there
aren't so many programs that completely support the svg standard.

ConTeXt then helps this kind of expert user because they are able "a
priori"  to understand if a svg image is problematic or not .


-- 
luigi

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Wagner Macedo]

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On Debian Packages, at least, we can declare, basically, 3 levels of
dependencies, according to
http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps

1) Depends - absolute dependency. Or else, packages that is strictly
necessary to works well.
2) Recommends - strong, but not absolute dependency.
3) Suggests - used to declare that one package may be more useful with one
or more others.

So, I think Inkscape would fit well as 'context' Suggests.

--
Wagner Macedo


On 20 January 2012 21:54, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> no, because not all users use svg (just an not all users use fonts defined
> in type-* files) and also because inkscape is close to impossible to
> install without x present which would render context 'unuseable due to a
> depency not being resolved'

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Hans Hagen]

On 21-1-2012 04:31, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> On Debian Packages, at least, we can declare, basically, 3 levels of
> dependencies, according to
> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps
>
> 1) Depends - absolute dependency. Or else, packages that is strictly
> necessary to works well.
> 2) Recommends - strong, but not absolute dependency.
> 3) Suggests - used to declare that one package may be more useful with one
> or more others.
>
> So, I think Inkscape would fit well as 'context' Suggests.

so in fact that would then be a list of programs that are optionally 
called from within context:

ghostscript   : for converting ps images to pdf
graphicmagick : for converting gif and tif
inkscape      : for converting svg(z)
zint          : for providing barcodes
curl          : for some remote content
pstoedit      : converts ps to mp outlines

maybe I forget a few.

(btw, does anyone know if installing x-less inkscape on linux is an 
option some day)

Hans

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-21 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 21-1-2012 01:40, Marco wrote:
> 
> > However, these external helpers (like ghostscript as well)
> > should be listed as a recommendation or suggestion [not as
> > dependency]).  In  that case  the  user  is notified  that
> > he/she might get a benefit installing these programs.
> 
> maybe a wiki page is a good start for that

I added  the list you  provided in  the other post  to the
Dependency section on the installer page.

http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Standalone#Dependencies

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:54 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> no, because not all users use svg (just an not all users use fonts 
> defined in type-* files) and also because inkscape is close to 
> impossible to install without x present which would render context 
> 'unuseable due to a depency not being resolved'
> 
> (in fact there is then also a dependency on a viewer)

If Inkscape isn't installed and the user \externalfigure's an SVG, is an
error raised with ConTeXt?

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:55 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> maybe a wiki page is a good start for that

Strongly agree.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 00:31 -0300, Wagner Macedo wrote:
> On Debian Packages, at least, we can declare, basically, 3 levels of
> dependencies, according to
> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps
> 
> 1) Depends - absolute dependency. Or else, packages that is strictly
> necessary to works well.
> 2) Recommends - strong, but not absolute dependency.
> 3) Suggests - used to declare that one package may be more useful with one
> or more others.
> 
> So, I think Inkscape would fit well as 'context' Suggests.
> 
> --
> Wagner Macedo

Copied the package maintainer.

-- 
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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Marco]

On 2012-01-23 Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote:

> If    Inkscape   isn't    installed    and   the    user
> \externalfigure's  an  SVG,  is  an  error  raised  with
> ConTeXt?

Yes and no. An error is  raised, but no hint that inkscape
is missing. ConTeXt says:

!LuaTeX error: cannot find image file 'm_k_i_v_pic.pdf'
 ==> Fatal error occurred, no output PDF file produced!

mtx-context     | fatal error: return code: 70

It  assumes that  the  conversion was  successful and  the
converted file  is present,  that's at  least what  I read
from the error message. A more user friendly error message
would be:

!LuaTeX error: cannot find inkscape to convert image file 'pic.svg'
 ==> Fatal error occurred, no output PDF file produced!

Marco


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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Tue, 2012-01-24 at 12:14 +0100, Marco wrote:
> A more user friendly error message
> would be:
> 
> !LuaTeX error: cannot find inkscape to convert image file 'pic.svg'
>  ==> Fatal error occurred, no output PDF file produced! 

Agreed.

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Re: \externalfigure and file size

[Kip Warner]

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On Sat, 2012-01-21 at 01:07 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> no, png, jpg and pdf are supported directly (as is mp) but fo rother 
> formats it will either try to find a replacement (there is a whole chain 
> of lookups) or it will try to run one of the configured converters ... with
> 
> \enabletrackers[graphics.*]
> 
> you can see what happens

I tried the above command and it didn't appear to do anything. =(

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