From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/85274 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Keith J. Schultz" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: announcement and call Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:25 +0100 Message-ID: <4F21D23D-AC44-4035-BB3C-44DB2B38709C@uni-trier.de> References: <5284D95B.1070602@uni-bonn.de> <20131114204020.GA10496@phlegethon> <528538B7.8010307@uni-bonn.de> <247FFAEB-F286-4968-823D-34ACFE7569A1@uni-trier.de> <52860E35.5080301@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0216543071==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1384616972 8101 80.91.229.3 (16 Nov 2013 15:49:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:49:32 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat Nov 16 16:49:38 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Vhi7s-0000l6-Ig for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E6710234; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id USAavo2HH28z; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:32 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510DF101FA; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:32 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758AE101FA for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:30 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id sTF3JjLNEDIK for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:28 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter3-ams.mf.surf.net (filter3-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.71]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDCC101E6 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:28 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mx1.uni-trier.de (mx1.uni-trier.de [136.199.224.17]) by filter3-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id rAGFnR6G005541 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:28 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,713,1378850400"; d="scan'208,217";a="9060795" Original-Received: from rzmail.uni-trier.de ([136.199.8.220]) by mx1i.uni-trier.de with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2013 16:49:26 +0100 Original-Received: from [10.0.62.5] (dslb-084-058-252-244.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.252.244]) by rzmail.uni-trier.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8E2453FE83 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:49:26 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <52860E35.5080301@wxs.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=136.199.224.17; country=DE; region=08; city=Trier; latitude=49.7500; longitude=6.6333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=49.7500,6.6333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 03KOfNrJi - db3dbbfdcd4d - 20131116 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.71 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:85274 Archived-At: --===============0216543071== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_051F8AF2-1FB8-47C6-849E-33148A3D3119" --Apple-Mail=_051F8AF2-1FB8-47C6-849E-33148A3D3119 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Am 15.11.2013 um 13:06 schrieb Hans Hagen : > On 11/15/2013 11:31 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> Hi Thomas, >>=20 [snip, snip ] >> The problem with the two page setup is synchronizing the comments, = notes, discussion of the critical edition's author. For a half way = pleasing layout these should interplaced between the contrasted editions = across the two pages. Yes, not an easy task. >=20 > a lot depends on proper coding ... typesetting parallel texts is not = per se the same as multiple streams ... it all depends on what one wants = to achieve Like I had said in my post, a critical editions is a special = case of parallel texts. How the different versions are brought together = is a different matter. That one can have the texts in different files and bringing them = together. =09 Also, one way of looking at a two page layout is to assmune a = multicolumn layout of a page that is 2 pages wide and 1 page high. = After the columns have been layout, rearrange the columns onto the proper page = size. That is the approriate boxes! I do not how difficult this would = be. =20 >=20 > also, if > 1 page is used then we should not limit to 2 pages (or = columns) in parallel Like I said above there are approaches which facilitate a = modular layout. True enough, this is not necessarily a TeX way of = approaching the problem, yet should help to make the process as automated as possible. = True enough that such an approach is not efficient, yet get the job = done. I believe a modular approach should be chosen. It allows for the = best possible flexibility and using the parallel text for the low-level = typeset gives the author the best way of laying out the critical edition, = instead of just putting simply texts next to each. That would not be = academically sensible, because creating a critical edition is far far more! >=20 >> I agree that it is hard to automate the synchronization of text = passages. The only viable approach would be at the paragraph level. A = line level approach can only be achieved by >> interaction of the author of the critical edition with = synchronization marks of some sort inside the editions. >=20 > indeed. one cannot have the best of all worlds (perfect justification, = perfect note handling, perfect synchronization) because the solition = space gets too small >=20 > (one thing Thomas and I discussed shortly is more advanced pdf's with = more embedded info and so ... something for later) >=20 > we also need to look into ebook like things ... This is something quite different an IMHO can be done relatively = easily and lots of coding by creating commands for proper ebook = production (mainly HTML 5 for epub and mobi output) and mapping those = commands back to the ConTeXt commands for the production of pdfs if = needed. >=20 >> Early, in my education in Computer Linguistics, decades ago, we had = project where we wrote a program for entry of critical editions. The = editions/texts and comments were >> entered in parallel on the tty-terminal screen and stored in a = database. At that time we where no interested in fancy output and used a = simple stacked output. >>=20 >> As you probably know yourself, it is the entry and synchronization of = the editions that is the problem an not as much the layout itself, = though that is hard enough by itself. >> I do not see any way to do this in a normal linear single pass = process. The question is in how far ConTeXt can support this task. > > ... >=20 > time, motivation, etc ... >=20 >> I have just a brain stormed possible starting point. It as you can = see it has quite some felixiblity as to how the texts >> is entered and ConTeXt does some rearranging during typesetting. >>=20 >> One type of critical edition we have not discussed is when the author = whats to work on a word basis. But, that is even a bigger can >> of worms for collating the data/texts. >>=20 >> Most of what I have describe it probably obvious to you, yet >=20 > well, keep collecting demands and examples ... best that we know what = is needed (and by how many people, for how many years to come, as it = makes no sense to develop code that is used once and then discarded = because one moves to newer technologies) ... >=20 > we also need to keep in mind that this kind of things are author = driven as publishers are not paying for this kind of things nor willing = to invest / support development of tools (if they are interested in = anything else than 25-50% profits at all). Critical editions are very special and not that wide spread. Why = do you think that there are not any very useful tools out in the wild.=20= They are almost always coming from the Humanities and such = authors are generally that "computer savvy" or versed in TeX let alone = xml. That is why I strongly suggest using a modular approach, with a = simplistic interface as possible.=20 Most that are looking for tools in ConTeXt will say well if I = have to learn that much first forget it.=20 So, please design carefully. quick solutions are the worst. Just = look at some of the messes that use TEI or TEI itself. Full of special = cases which do many things that are alike, yet just a slight bit different. = ConTeXt is far better organized and modular. It solution should work = along that basis. regards Keith =09 --Apple-Mail=_051F8AF2-1FB8-47C6-849E-33148A3D3119 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Am 15.11.2013 um 13:06 schrieb Hans = Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>:
On = 11/15/2013 11:31 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Thomas,

[snip, = snip
]
The problem with the two page setup is synchronizing the = comments, notes, discussion of the critical edition's author. For a half = way pleasing layout these should interplaced between the contrasted = editions across the two pages. Yes, not an easy = task.

a lot depends on proper coding ... typesetting = parallel texts is not per se the same as multiple streams ... it all = depends on what one wants to achieve
Like I = had said in my post, a critical editions is a special case of parallel = texts. How the different versions are brought together is a different = matter.
That one can have the texts in = different files and bringing them together.
=
Also, one way of looking at a two = page layout is to assmune a multicolumn layout of a page that is 2 pages = wide and 1  page high. After the columns
have been = layout, rearrange the columns onto the proper page size. That is the = approriate boxes! I do not how difficult this would be.
=  

also, if = > 1 page is used then we should not limit to 2 pages (or columns) in = parallel
Like I said above there are = approaches which facilitate a modular layout. True enough, this is not = necessarily a TeX way of approaching the problem,
  =       yet should help to make the process as automated as = possible. True enough that such an approach is not efficient, yet get = the job done.

I believe a modular approach = should be chosen. It allows for the best possible flexibility and using = the parallel text for the low-level typeset gives
  =       the author the best way of laying out the critical = edition, instead of just putting simply texts next to each. That would = not be academically sensible, because
creating = a critical edition is far far more!

I agree = that it is hard to automate the synchronization of text passages. The = only viable approach would be at the paragraph level. A line level = approach can only be achieved by
interaction of the author of the = critical edition with synchronization marks of some sort inside the = editions.

indeed. one cannot have the best of all = worlds (perfect justification, perfect note handling, perfect = synchronization) because the solition space gets too small

(one = thing Thomas and I discussed shortly is more advanced pdf's with more = embedded info and so ... something for later)

we also need to = look into ebook like things ...
This is = something quite different an IMHO can be done relatively easily and lots = of coding by creating commands for proper ebook = production
         (mainly HTML 5 = for epub and mobi output) and mapping those commands back to the ConTeXt = commands for the production of pdfs if needed.

Early, in = my education in Computer Linguistics, decades ago, we had project where = we wrote a program for entry of critical editions. The editions/texts = and comments were
entered in parallel on the tty-terminal screen and = stored in a database. At that time we where no interested in fancy = output and used a simple stacked output.

As you probably know = yourself, it is the entry and synchronization of the editions that =  is the problem an not as much the layout itself, though that is = hard enough by itself.
I do not see any way to do this in a normal = linear single pass process. The question is in how far ConTeXt can = support this task.
> ...

time, motivation, etc = ...

I have just a brain stormed = possible starting point. It as you can see it has quite some felixiblity = as to how the texts
is entered and ConTeXt does some rearranging = during typesetting.

One type of critical edition we have not = discussed is when the author whats to work on a word basis. But, that is = even a bigger can
of worms for collating the data/texts.

Most = of what I have describe it probably obvious to you, = yet

well, keep collecting demands and examples ... = best that we know what is needed (and by how many people, for how many = years to come, as it makes no sense to develop code that is used once = and then discarded because one moves to newer technologies) = ...

we also need to keep in mind that this kind of things are = author driven as publishers are not paying for this kind of things nor = willing to invest / support development of tools (if they are interested = in anything else than 25-50% profits at = all).
Critical editions are very = special and not that wide spread. Why do you think that there are not = any very useful tools out in the wild. 
They are = almost always coming from the Humanities and such authors are generally = that "computer savvy" or versed in TeX let alone xml.
That is = why I strongly suggest using a modular approach, with a simplistic = interface as possible. 
Most that are looking for tools = in ConTeXt will say well if I have to learn that much first forget = it. 

So, please design carefully. = quick solutions are the worst. Just look at some of the messes that use = TEI or TEI itself. Full of special cases which
do many = things that are alike, yet just a slight bit different.  ConTeXt is = far better organized and modular. It solution should work along = that
= basis.

regards
= Keith

= --Apple-Mail=_051F8AF2-1FB8-47C6-849E-33148A3D3119-- --===============0216543071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0216543071==--