Re: Font embedding

Re: Font embedding

[Honza Hejzl]

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Just a little P. S.

Here is the typical view of fully embedded fonts (Scribus made):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/embedded.png

And here the typical view of subset fonts (ConTeXt made):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/subset.png

I will try to discuss that with somebody from the industry...

Honza

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Re: Font embedding

[luigi scarso]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a little P. S.
>
> Here is the typical view of fully embedded fonts (Scribus made):
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/embedded.png
>
> And here the typical view of subset fonts (ConTeXt made):
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/subset.png
>
> I will try to discuss that with somebody from the industry...
can you try both with
$>pdffonts <file1>.pdf
$>pdffonts <file2>.pdf
where file1 and file 2 are from
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/embedded.png
and
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/subset.png
and include the output here ?


-- 
luigi
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Re: Font embedding

[Hans Hagen]

On 29-2-2012 08:34, Honza Hejzl wrote:
> Just a little P. S.
>
> Here is the typical view of fully embedded fonts (Scribus made):
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/embedded.png

I wonder if that one has the proper tounicode vectors which are 
definitely needed when the printing house wants to cut / paste / mess 
around



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Re: Font embedding

[Honza Hejzl]

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I am not at linux machine now but can provide those pdfs. (Thanks for your
recommendation of pdffonts.)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/obalka_skand_fi_x1.pdf (Scribus embedded)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/navrh_auditorium.pdf (ConTeXt subset)

Thanks, Honza

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Re: Font embedding

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not at linux machine now but can provide those pdfs. (Thanks for your
> recommendation of pdffonts.)
>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/obalka_skand_fi_x1.pdf (Scribus embedded)
>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4393365/navrh_auditorium.pdf (ConTeXt subset)
If you use pdffonts and see something like
XZFSWD-<name>
Embed yes
Subset yes
then the font is embedded and subset (which are the ~99% of situations)
If you see
<name>
Embed yes
Subset no
then the glyphs of the font are completely embedded and this *MUST* be
permitted by the font licence
(there are special flags inside the fonts about this).
Even if the case, it's not the common practice.
I don't have the last scribus at hand, but I will check  if it permits the
complete embedding of the font even if the licence says it's not possible.
-- 
luigi

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Font embedding

[Honza Hejzl]

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Hi,

does anybody know how to really embed fonts into a pdffile? I have checked
and read many conversations on that topic here but without the real
solution (just a tons of arguments about "how problematic/unethic it could
be"… and so on).

I know well MKIV subsets all fonts. Yes, it is really good but it does not
satisfy 99 % of modern printing offices. Embedding of all fonts is very
typical demand of them. I really need it, sometimes it is not good or
possible to discuss with a printing office "why to use my file instead of
the one you are demanding".

I will appreciate any info.

Thanks,
Honza Hejzl

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Re: Font embedding

[Hans Hagen]

On 28-2-2012 15:39, Honza Hejzl wrote:
> Hi,
>
> does anybody know how to really embed fonts into a pdffile? I have checked
> and read many conversations on that topic here but without the real
> solution (just a tons of arguments about "how problematic/unethic it could
> be"… and so on).
>
> I know well MKIV subsets all fonts. Yes, it is really good but it does not
> satisfy 99 % of modern printing offices. Embedding of all fonts is very
> typical demand of them. I really need it, sometimes it is not good or
> possible to discuss with a printing office "why to use my file instead of
> the one you are demanding".

it's a weird demand of them as they are not supposed to mess with the 
pdf file anyway

you can put all characters that make sense in an layer of page one 
painted in white (or whatever) but even then, the amount of related data 
is not there (in fact embedding only means embedding outlines and a font 
is much more than that)

you can always give them a copy of the font (if the license permits) as 
for editing a pdf acrobat will look at system fonts

Hans

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Re: Font embedding

[Hans Hagen]

On 28-2-2012 16:05, Honza Hejzl wrote:

> P. S. It could be great to have +/– choice of subset/embed.

as Martin says ... maybe consider a different printing house ... at 
least ask them why they want an fully embedded font and if they can 
define what fully means in these open type days ... what is the use of 
alternate shapes (or when alternates are used, what is the use of 
regular shapes) and what will they do with them given that all 
information about using them is not embedded anyway ...

In a similar fashion you can expect a printing house to have a full 
acrobat (> version 6) so that they can convert to different pdf 
standards if needed, remap color spaces, etc.

Hans

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Re: Font embedding

[Honza Hejzl]

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> Check the yellow pages for a printing house that does not demand that. :-)
>
> Best
>   Martin
>
>
I am sorry, but that is absolutely typical demand, I have never seen at
least one printing house which does not demand that... (And this is not a
solution! :o))

In nowadays it is the client who choose the specific printing office, my
situation is the same.

That printing house demands expecially this:

PDF file must be version *1.3*

Embed the typeface in the document along with the image data. Avoid using
OPI commentaries! The typefaces used may be of the following standards: *
Type1*, *TrueType*, *and Opentype*. As a matter of principle, the data is
provided as a composite (not separated). Formats other than PDF are
accepted only after prior agreement.

The PDF provided file should especially not contain any kind of
meta-information, hypertext link, etc.

Everyone in printing industry *knows* what does it mean "to embed fonts",
it is similar like when somebody wants pdf x-1a file (in printing industry
the standard).

I am not a programmer, I don't know what does it mean in a code point of
view. Trust me, embedding of fonts is the standard ("if you are not able to
provide us the file as we need, your client should find another typesetter"
- who typesets in InDesign). InDesign subsets typically just fonts used for
texts where is not used 100 % of alphabet (pdf export settings).

Honza

P. S. Some inspiration could maybe provide the Scribus, it has nice pdf
export possibilities, better than InDesign itself!
P. P. S. I have sent this to Hans and after that found your answers here,
so I am sending similar info.

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Re: Font embedding

[Hans Hagen]

On 28-2-2012 19:08, Honza Hejzl wrote:
>> Check the yellow pages for a printing house that does not demand that. :-)
>>
>> Best
>>    Martin
>>
>>
> I am sorry, but that is absolutely typical demand, I have never seen at
> least one printing house which does not demand that... (And this is not a
> solution! :o))

Eh .. you mean that most printing houses demand *full* inclusion?

> PDF file must be version *1.3*

Hm ... reminds me of printing houses that convert the pdf to ps and use 
quark for imposition, don't want to update acrobat for a few hundred 
euro but expect their customers to invest a lot in them.

I'm curious what Luigi thinks of this (as he works at a lerge printing 
house).

> Embed the typeface in the document along with the image data. Avoid using
> OPI commentaries! The typefaces used may be of the following standards: *
> Type1*, *TrueType*, *and Opentype*. As a matter of principle, the data is
> provided as a composite (not separated). Formats other than PDF are
> accepted only after prior agreement.

I wonder what they mean with 'standards' ... take openstype: only some 
splines are included and some width information. So, say that they want 
zapfino to be fully included: they get megabytes of shapes, completely 
unorganized (apart from maybe the fact that one can tell what unicode or 
sequence of unicode it is). No feature data, no kerning, etc. So, this 
demand for 'full embedding' to me more sounds like weird.

> The PDF provided file should especially not contain any kind of
> meta-information, hypertext link, etc.

that's easy, although even a version 1.3 *only* viewer (if you can still 
find one) is supposed to ignore annotations it does not know

[i could imagine no objects streams but one can easilly convert a 1.X 
file into a 1.y file using acrobat]

> Everyone in printing industry *knows* what does it mean "to embed fonts",
> it is similar like when somebody wants pdf x-1a file (in printing industry
> the standard).

sure, but I'm not so sure if everyone expects one to embed all that 
unused information

(btw, so far we never had to provide a specific pdf/x version so there 
are printing houses that are flexible enough to deal with it)

> I am not a programmer, I don't know what does it mean in a code point of
> view. Trust me, embedding of fonts is the standard ("if you are not able to
> provide us the file as we need, your client should find another typesetter"
> - who typesets in InDesign). InDesign subsets typically just fonts used for
> texts where is not used 100 % of alphabet (pdf export settings).

it depends ...

- a typesetter produces a file
- in some kind of valid pdf
- that than can be converted by whoever gets that file

a printer might decide to drop features (because he cannot print it) or 
the publisher's prepress department can decide to downsample or convert 
to gray or ...

in your case the printing house does not like what indesign does by 
default, but often it's indesign that sets the standard of what to 
expect so it all depends ... everyone in the publishing chain who claims 
that 'this or that is the standard' is of course right in its own 
perception

anyway ... in your case you can say:

\setupbackend[format=PDF/X-1a:2001]

and get 1.3 (unless of course features are used cq. images included that 
demand otherwise)

and you can best also say

\nopdfcompression

just to be sure that the printing house cannot complain about compression

and then there is

\enabledirectives[fonts.embedall]

but that doesn't work unless you add line 205 in font-con.lua:

             tfmdata.embedding = embedding

(I'll add that line in the next beta)

which will embed a font (but of course still quite validly use a subset 
vector).

Graphics and other resources are completely out of context/luatex's 
scope as are all kind of other aspects,

Hans

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Re: Font embedding

[Martin Schröder]

2012/2/28 Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com>:
> PDF file must be version 1.3

Yellow pages. Now. Choose one that can handle PDF/X-4.

PDF 1.4 was released in 2001. If they need 1.3, their software is
probably a decade old.

Best
   Martin
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Re: Font embedding

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2012-02-28 um 21:23 schrieb Martin Schröder:

> 2012/2/28 Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com>:
>> PDF file must be version 1.3
>
> Yellow pages. Now. Choose one that can handle PDF/X-4.
>
> PDF 1.4 was released in 2001. If they need 1.3, their software is
> probably a decade old.

No, they just keep to standards they can handle. There’s not so much  
wrong about PDF/X-1 and -3.

I guess the "full font embedding" is just a misunderstanding. The  
instructions Honza quoted didn’t say "full".

I experienced a lot of printshops whose instructions were for office- 
type laymen and just utterly wrong for professionals*, e.g. to deliver  
single page pdfs or to convert all fonts to curves. Other printshops  
never learned anything in the last 20-30 years - they earned their  
insolvence.

*) or, say, people who know stuff - most *amateur* (in the meaning of  
the word) typographers are better than everyday professionals.

Honza, I guess you need only this information: ConTeXt embeds fonts  
very well and standards compliant. If it doesn’t, it’s an error that  
we can track (maybe missing or corrupt font on your system).



Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: Font embedding

[luigi scarso]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net> wrote:
> Am 2012-02-28 um 21:23 schrieb Martin Schröder:
>
>
>> 2012/2/28 Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> PDF file must be version 1.3
>>
>>
>> Yellow pages. Now. Choose one that can handle PDF/X-4.
>>
>> PDF 1.4 was released in 2001. If they need 1.3, their software is
>> probably a decade old.
>
>
> No, they just keep to standards they can handle. There’s not so much wrong
> about PDF/X-1 and -3.
right. After all, many of tex user still use dvitops and pstopdf.
>
> I guess the "full font embedding" is just a misunderstanding. The
> instructions Honza quoted didn’t say "full".
yes, this is what I believe
>
> I experienced a lot of printshops whose instructions were for office-type
> laymen and just utterly wrong for professionals*, e.g. to deliver single
> page pdfs or to convert all fonts to curves. Other printshops never learned
> anything in the last 20-30 years - they earned their insolvence.
>
> *) or, say, people who know stuff - most *amateur* (in the meaning of the
> word) typographers are better than everyday professionals.
or \input zapf


>
> Honza, I guess you need only this information: ConTeXt embeds fonts very
> well and standards compliant. If it doesn’t, it’s an error that we can track
> (maybe missing or corrupt font on your system).
Right -- at least this is  my almost 10 years experience of industrial
printing with mkii and mkiv.

The only obscure issue with fonts embedding is the fact that at least
for pdf1.4
it was a "bad practice" (let's says so) to embed one of the 14
Postscript "standard" fonts
Courier,Courier-Bold,Courier-Oblique,Courier-BoldOblique,Helvetica,Helvetica-Bold,Helvetica-Oblique,Helvetica-BoldOblique,Times-Roman,Times-Bold,Times-Italic,Times-BoldItalic,Symbol,ZapfDingbats
(the  Base-14 Fonts)
but pdf/a-* which is pdf 1.4 based requires that all the font *must*
be correctly embed, even one of the Base-14 fonts.
So, a pdf1.4 with, let's say, only helvetica correctly embed, can be
theoretically marked as "bad" (not wrong, just bad) if checked versus
a generic 1.4 version compliant,
but right (at least form the point of view of fonts) if checked as pdf/a-1 .
But it's so dependant to the pdf-checker that we can say that if the
last release of Acrobat say it's ok, than you can say that it's ok.
(incidentally, that's why in this situation I use Nimbus whenever I
can, to avoid such kind of noises).


-- 
luigi
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Re: Font embedding

[Martin Schröder]

2012/2/28 Honza Hejzl <honza.hejzl@gmail.com>:
> satisfy 99 % of modern printing offices. Embedding of all fonts is very
> typical demand of them. I really need it, sometimes it is not good or

Check the yellow pages for a printing house that does not demand that. :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: Font embedding

[Khaled Hosny]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 03:39:04PM +0100, Honza Hejzl wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> does anybody know how to really embed fonts into a pdffile? I have checked and
> read many conversations on that topic here but without the real solution (just
> a tons of arguments about "how problematic/unethic it could be"… and so on).
> 
> I know well MKIV subsets all fonts. Yes, it is really good but it does not
> satisfy 99 % of modern printing offices. Embedding of all fonts is very typical
> demand of them. I really need it, sometimes it is not good or possible to
> discuss with a printing office "why to use my file instead of the one you are
> demanding".

When using map files '<<fontfile' should tell the engine to fully embed
the font, but since MkIV does not use map files you can't use this.
Alternatively, font table passed from lua to pdf backed have an
'embedding' key and setting it to 'full' should fully embed the font,
but I don't know if MkIV provides a way to control this.

Regards,
 Khaled
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Re: Font embedding

[Hans Hagen]

On 28-2-2012 18:38, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> When using map files '<<fontfile' should tell the engine to fully embed
> the font, but since MkIV does not use map files you can't use this.
> Alternatively, font table passed from lua to pdf backed have an
> 'embedding' key and setting it to 'full' should fully embed the font,
> but I don't know if MkIV provides a way to control this.

It's a document property (as I see no need to configure it per font) and 
these are controlled via directives:

\enabledirective[fonts.embed]

But passing the flag to luatex got lost when I redid some of the font 
code quite a while ago (and no one complained),

Hans

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