* Asian Language Support @ 2012-05-07 10:43 hwitloc 2012-05-07 13:12 ` S Barmeier 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: hwitloc @ 2012-05-07 10:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in Japanese. I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch over to TeX based systems. I've been starting and am learning to use ConTeXt but I've still a long way to go. I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a "How to publish a Japanese language document using ConTeXt" or something like that, unless it is incredibly easy to do. I've not tried it yet, but will tomorrow. I wanted to write to the group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other input. My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a Japanese XP Windows box. I've not had any problems with English documents. Regards, Henman (hwitloc) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 10:43 Asian Language Support hwitloc @ 2012-05-07 13:12 ` S Barmeier 2012-05-07 22:07 ` Hans Hagen 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: S Barmeier @ 2012-05-07 13:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users I am writing documents in English/Japanese. If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have terrible Latin fonts... I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need. If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need \setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks... And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext and \stoptext Severin ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 13:12 ` S Barmeier @ 2012-05-07 22:07 ` Hans Hagen 2012-05-07 22:33 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-08 15:03 ` KUROKI Yusuke 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-07 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote: > I am writing documents in English/Japanese. > > If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your > own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have > terrible Latin fonts... > > I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need. > > If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need > \setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks... > > And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext > and \stoptext I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support. \enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing] % \enabletrackers[scripts.injections] \enabletrackers[scripts.details] % \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan] \definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3] [script=kana,language=jan] \testfont \starttext \startscript[nihongo] \startlines 国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、 \hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、} 国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国 \hbox to 3em{国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国} \stoplines \stopscript \stoptext A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use? More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with already a few japanese specific inter-character issues done). Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 22:07 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-07 22:33 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-08 15:03 ` KUROKI Yusuke 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-07 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi, Hans, Tnank you for your quick try. I will respond to you this evening (in your timezone, this afternoon), because I don't have so much time to write sth in this morning. 2012/5/8 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>: > On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote: >> >> I am writing documents in English/Japanese. >> >> If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your >> own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have >> terrible Latin fonts... >> >> I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need. >> >> If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need >> \setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks... >> >> And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext >> and \stoptext > > > I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support. > > \enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing] > % \enabletrackers[scripts.injections] > \enabletrackers[scripts.details] > > % \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan] > \definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3] [script=kana,language=jan] > > \testfont > > \starttext > > \startscript[nihongo] > > \startlines > 国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、 > \hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、} > 国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国 > \hbox to 3em{国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国} > \stoplines > > \stopscript > > \stoptext > > A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use? > > More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between > categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with > already a few japanese specific inter-character issues done). > > > Hans > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 22:07 ` Hans Hagen 2012-05-07 22:33 ` KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-08 15:03 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-08 15:41 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-08 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi, Hans, > A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use? It is a difficult question. In Chinese or Korean case, what they have chosen? In Japanese, we need to prepare a lot of characters for font set if they complete Adobe-Japan-1.5 or something. So, some font vendors publish the font sets including only kana-region and latin/number-region (and elementary school level kanjis). In this case, script=kana might be ok, but if the font set has all the characters of Adobe-Japan-1.5 region, then script=kana is too impolite. Moreover, in pTeX world, we use 'kanji' for this kind, but we need to rethink 'kanji' is most appreciate or not. Thanks, -- Yusuke. (2012/05/08 7:07), Hans Hagen wrote: > On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote: >> I am writing documents in English/Japanese. >> >> If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your >> own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have >> terrible Latin fonts... >> >> I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need. >> >> If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need >> \setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks... >> >> And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext >> and \stoptext > > I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support. > > \enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing] > % \enabletrackers[scripts.injections] > \enabletrackers[scripts.details] > > % \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan] > \definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3] [script=kana,language=jan] > > \testfont > > \starttext > > \startscript[nihongo] > > \startlines > 国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、 > \hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、} > 国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国 > \hbox to 3em{国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国：国} > \stoplines > > \stopscript > > \stoptext > > A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use? > > More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with already a few japanese specific inter-character issues done). > > Hans > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-08 15:03 ` KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-08 15:41 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-08 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Yusuke > > A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use? > > It is a difficult question. In Chinese or Korean case, > what they have chosen? In Japanese, we need to prepare a > lot of characters for font set if they complete Adobe-Japan-1.5 > or something. So, some font vendors publish the font sets > including only kana-region and latin/number-region (and > elementary school level kanjis). In this case, script=kana > might be ok, but if the font set has all the characters > of Adobe-Japan-1.5 region, then script=kana is too impolite. > > Moreover, in pTeX world, we use 'kanji' for this kind, but > we need to rethink 'kanji' is most appreciate or not. we use hangul for korean and hanzi for chinese so kanji sounds ok to me but in fact there a bit more to it, currently we have \definescript[hangul] [method=hangul] \definescript[hanzi] [method=hanzi] \definescript[nihongo] [method=nihongo] and these use default presets but as there can be be variants in spacing one can also define for instance \definescript [myhangul] [hangul] [preset=mypreferences] (not that there are such preferences defined now) and more key/values will be supported some day so, shall we go for 'kanji' for the default setup? but 'japanese' could do as well as well because we can define synonyms Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 10:43 Asian Language Support hwitloc 2012-05-07 13:12 ` S Barmeier @ 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-07 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hello, Henman, What the timing you choose to post this message! Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting. Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from some Chinese typesetting custom. In TeX world, for well-customized Japanese typesetting, we usually use p(La)TeX developed by ASCII MEDIA WORKS Inc. Since it has been already included TeX Live 2011 and now Cygwin distribute texlive-collection packages officially, you can use pTeX in Cygwin. Another alternative is to use LuaTeX-ja package through LuaTeX. The package is now distributed through CTAN and also upcoming TeX Live. Best, -- Yusuke. (2012/05/07 19:43), hwitloc@gmail.com wrote: > > I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in Japanese. > I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch over to TeX based systems. I've been starting and am learning to use ConTeXt but I've still a long way to go. > > I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a "How to publish a Japanese language document using ConTeXt" or something like that, unless it is incredibly easy to do. I've not tried it yet, but will tomorrow. I wanted to write to the > group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other input. > > My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a Japanese XP Windows box. I've not had any problems with English documents. > > Regards, > Henman (hwitloc) > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [***SPAM***] Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-07 12:54 ` d.henman 2012-05-07 14:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke ` (2 more replies) 2012-05-07 13:56 ` S Barmeier 2012-05-07 15:54 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: d.henman @ 2012-05-07 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Yusuke-san, Thank you too for writing. It seems like one or the other so far, platex does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to you bad Japanese charac ters. Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? Would this wowrk? ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman @ 2012-05-07 14:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-08 8:41 ` ABE Noriyuki 2012-05-08 9:09 ` [***SPAM***] " Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-07 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hello, Henman-san, > Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? It is not the problem of simplefont itself, I think. The problem is the rules of hanzi option does not have such a good quality in spacing and line-breaking for Japanese typesetting. > can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? Would this wowrk? Unfortunately no. I could not describe the reason, but everyone gives up before trying. Cheers, -- Yusuke. (2012/05/07 21:54), d.henman wrote: > Yusuke-san, > Thank you too for writing. It seems like one or the other so far, platex does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to you bad Japanese charac > ters. Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? > > So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? Would this wowrk? -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman 2012-05-07 14:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-08 8:41 ` ABE Noriyuki 2012-05-08 14:11 ` hwitloc 2012-05-08 9:09 ` [***SPAM***] " Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: ABE Noriyuki @ 2012-05-08 8:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Dear Henman-san, > So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? > Would this wowrk? With ConTeXt mark II (not mark IV), you can use ptex as the engine. Such support is included in W32TeX. (I don't know whether TeXLive 2011 supports it.) You can type `texexec --eptex foo'. If you want to try it, please read share/texmf/doc/context/context-w32. txt and test-eptex.tex. (It is written in Japanese, but I think it does not matter for you.) 2012/05/07(Mon) 22:54:47, "d.henman" <dhenman@gmail.com>: > > Yusuke-san, > Thank you too for writing. It seems like one or the other so far, platex > does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which > the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to > you bad Japanese charac > ters. Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? > > So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? > Would this wowrk? > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg- > context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ Sincerely, Noriyuki Abe ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-08 8:41 ` ABE Noriyuki @ 2012-05-08 14:11 ` hwitloc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: hwitloc @ 2012-05-08 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Abe-san, thanks for the suggestion. I will do the reading as you suggested. It's always good to have backup for now, in case a clean method can't be worked out with Mark IV right away. Regards ABE Noriyuki <abenori@math.sci.hokudai.ac.jp> wrote: > Dear Henman-san, > > > So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? > > Would this wowrk? > With ConTeXt mark II (not mark IV), you can use ptex as the engine. Such > support is included in W32TeX. (I don't know whether TeXLive 2011 > supports it.) You can type `texexec --eptex foo'. > > If you want to try it, please read share/texmf/doc/context/context-w32. > txt and test-eptex.tex. (It is written in Japanese, but I think it does > not matter for you.) > > 2012/05/07(Mon) 22:54:47, "d.henman" <dhenman@gmail.com>: > > > > Yusuke-san, > > Thank you too for writing. It seems like one or the other so far, platex > > does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which > > the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to > > you bad Japanese charac > > ters. Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? > > > > So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine? > > Would this wowrk? > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > _______ > > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > > the Wiki! > > > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg- > > context > > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > _______ > > > Sincerely, > Noriyuki Abe > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [***SPAM***] Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman 2012-05-07 14:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-08 8:41 ` ABE Noriyuki @ 2012-05-08 9:09 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-08 9:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: d.henman On 7-5-2012 14:54, d.henman wrote: > > Yusuke-san, > Thank you too for writing. It seems like one or the other so far, platex does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to you bad Japanese charac > ters. Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont? Just a remark: for cjk one can best use the mkiv feature to combine fonts; there are probably some examples of korean fonts mixed with e.g. palatino or times in the email archive Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman @ 2012-05-07 13:56 ` S Barmeier 2012-05-07 15:54 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: S Barmeier @ 2012-05-07 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Depending on your needs, p(La)TeX may be a quicker solution, if you can afford to miss out on the benefits of ConTeXt. But that's just my opinion... On 05/07/2012 10:17 PM, KUROKI Yusuke wrote: > Hello, Henman, > > What the timing you choose to post this message! > Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had > a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting. > Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese > typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of > ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from > some Chinese typesetting custom. > > In TeX world, for well-customized Japanese typesetting, > we usually use p(La)TeX developed by ASCII MEDIA WORKS Inc. > Since it has been already included TeX Live 2011 and now > Cygwin distribute texlive-collection packages officially, > you can use pTeX in Cygwin. > > Another alternative is to use LuaTeX-ja package through LuaTeX. > The package is now distributed through CTAN and also upcoming > TeX Live. > > Best, > -- Yusuke. > > > (2012/05/07 19:43), hwitloc@gmail.com wrote: >> >> I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in >> Japanese. >> I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch >> over to TeX based systems. I've been starting and am learning to use >> ConTeXt but I've still a long way to go. >> >> I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a "How >> to publish a Japanese language document using ConTeXt" or something >> like that, unless it is incredibly easy to do. I've not tried it yet, >> but will tomorrow. I wanted to write to the >> group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other >> input. >> >> My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a >> Japanese XP Windows box. I've not had any problems with English >> documents. >> >> Regards, >> Henman (hwitloc) >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry >> to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman 2012-05-07 13:56 ` S Barmeier @ 2012-05-07 15:54 ` Hans Hagen 2012-05-08 10:39 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-07 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote: > What the timing you choose to post this message! > Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had > a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting. > Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese > typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of > ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from > some Chinese typesetting custom. We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with japanese rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting point. It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has mixed punctuation etc. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-07 15:54 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-05-08 10:39 ` KUROKI Yusuke 2012-05-09 13:37 ` KUROKI Yusuke 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-08 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1624 bytes --] I am attaching five test files including Fig. 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ . All files but Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt, the positions of linebreaks are the same as the examples. In writing a manuscript, we will make linebreaks depending on its context, then the same results are required from the different sources, Fig3_1.txt and Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt . Yusuke. (2012/05/08 0:54), Hans Hagen wrote: > On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote: > >> What the timing you choose to post this message! >> Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had >> a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting. >> Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese >> typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of >> ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from >> some Chinese typesetting custom. > > We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with japanese rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting point. > > It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has mixed punctuation etc. > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/ [-- Attachment #2: Fig3_1.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 287 bytes --] 日本語の表記においては，漢字や仮名だけで なく，ローマ字やアラビア数字，さらに句読 点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる．これら を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では，表記 上における種々の問題がある． [-- Attachment #3: Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 287 bytes --] 日本語の表記においては，漢字や仮名だけでなく， ローマ字やアラビア数字，さらに句読点や括弧類などの 記述記号を用いる． これらを組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では，表記上に おける種々の問題がある． [-- Attachment #4: Fig3_2.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 287 bytes --] 日本語の表記においては，漢字や仮名だけで なく，ローマ字やアラビア数字，さらに句読 点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる。これら を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では，表記 上における種々の問題がある。 [-- Attachment #5: Fig3_3.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 287 bytes --] 日本語の表記においては、漢字や仮名だけで なく、ローマ字やアラビア数字、さらに句読 点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる。これら を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では、表記 上における種々の問題がある。 [-- Attachment #6: Fig3_5.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 199 bytes --] 日本語の表記では“漢字”や”仮名”だけで なく，“ローマ字”や“アラビア数字”，さら に“句読点”や“括弧類”などの記述記号を 用いる． [-- Attachment #7: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Asian Language Support 2012-05-08 10:39 ` KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-09 13:37 ` KUROKI Yusuke 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: KUROKI Yusuke @ 2012-05-09 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2065 bytes --] I have realized a slight typo was included in Fig3_5.txt. The corrected one is attached to this mail. Hans, Japanese opening “ should be treated as opening 「, and closing ” should be treated as closing 」, in the meaning of spacing and line-breaking. Thanks, -- Yusuke. 2012/5/8 KUROKI Yusuke <kuroky@users.sourceforge.jp>: > I am attaching five test files including Fig. 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 > in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ . All files but > Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt, the positions of linebreaks > are the same as the examples. In writing a manuscript, > we will make linebreaks depending on its context, then > the same results are required from the different sources, > Fig3_1.txt and Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt . > > Yusuke. > > > (2012/05/08 0:54), Hans Hagen wrote: >> >> On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote: >> >>> What the timing you choose to post this message! >>> Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had >>> a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting. >>> Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese >>> typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of >>> ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from >>> some Chinese typesetting custom. >> >> >> We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with >> japanese rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting >> point. >> >> It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in >> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has mixed >> punctuation etc. >> >> Hans >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE >> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands >> tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com >> | www.pragma-pod.nl >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) > kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp > http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/ -- 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke) [-- Attachment #2: Fig3_5.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 199 bytes --] 日本語の表記では“漢字”や“仮名”だけで なく，“ローマ字”や“アラビア数字”，さら に“句読点”や“括弧類”などの記述記号を 用いる． [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <mailman.3.1336471202.23349.ntg-context@ntg.nl>]
* Re: Asian Language Support [not found] <mailman.3.1336471202.23349.ntg-context@ntg.nl> @ 2012-05-08 13:48 ` dalyoung 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: dalyoung @ 2012-05-08 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 457 bytes --] > > Just a remark: for cjk one can best use the mkiv feature to combine > fonts; there are probably some examples of korean fonts mixed with e.g. > palatino or times in the email archive. Here is a sample typescript file for mixed Korean and English fonts suggested by Hans. Using this file, I can use Korean font for Korean and Palatino for English. It works well. You can modify this file for your purpose. Good luck! Best regards, Dalyoung [-- Attachment #2: type-imp-unfonts.mkiv --] [-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 7449 bytes --] %D \module %D [ file=type-imp-unfonts, %D version=2012.03.11, %D title=\CONTEXT\ Typescript Macros, %D subtitle=UnFonts, %D author=..., %D date=\currentdate, %D copyright=...] %C %C This module is part of the \CONTEXT\ macro||package and is %C therefore copyrighted by \PRAGMA. See mreadme.pdf for %C details. \loadtypescriptfile[texgyre] \loadtypescriptfile[xits] \definefontfeature [kr-default] [mode=node,script=hang,lang=kor] \definefontfeature [kr-slanted] [mode=node,script=hang,lang=kor,slant=.2] \definefontfeature [kr-latin-default] [default] \definefontfeature [kr-latin-slanted] [krlatindefault] [slant=.2] \definefontfeature [kr-latin-slanted-mono] [slant=.2] \definefontfeature [kr-latin-smallcaps] [krlatindefault] [smcp=yes] \definefontfeature [kr-latin-smallcaps-mono] [cmcp=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serif] [texgyrepagella-regular*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifbold] [texgyrepagella-bold*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifitalic] [texgyrepagella-italic*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifbolditalic] [texgyrepagella-bolditalic*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifslanted] [texgyrepagella-regular*kr-latin-slanted] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifboldslanted][texgyrepagella-bold*kr-latin-slanted] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-serifcaps] [texgyrepagella-regular*kr-latin-smallcaps] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sans] [texgyreheros-regular*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sansbold] [texgyreheros-bold*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sansitalic] [texgyreheros-italic*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sansbolditalic] [texgyreheros-bolditalic*kr-latin-default] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sansslanted] [texgyreheros-regular*kr-latin-slanted] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sansboldslanted] [texgyreheros-bold*kr-latin-slanted] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-sanscaps] [texgyreheros-regular*kr-latin-smallcaps] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-mono] [texgyrecursor-regular] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monobold] [texgyrecursor-bold] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monoitalic] [texgyrecursor-italic] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monobolditalic] [texgyrecursor-bolditalic] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monoslanted] [texgyrecursor-regular*kr-latin-slanted-mono] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monoboldslanted] [texgyrecursor-bold*kr-latin-slanted-mono] [0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \definefontfallback[kr-monocaps] [texgyrecursor-regular*kr-latin-smallcaps-mono][0x0000-0x0400][force=yes] \starttypescriptcollection[unfonts] \starttypescript [serif] [unbatang] \definefontsynonym [unbatang] [file:unbatang] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-serif] \definefontsynonym [unbatangbold] [file:unbatangbold][features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-serifbold] \definefontsynonym [unbatangitalic] [file:unbatang] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-serifitalic] \definefontsynonym [unbatangbolditalic] [file:unbatangbold][features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-serifbolditalic] \definefontsynonym [unbatangslanted] [file:unbatang] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-serifslanted] \definefontsynonym [unbatangboldslanted][file:unbatangbold][features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-serifboldslanted] \definefontsynonym [unbatangcaps] [file:unbatang] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-serifcaps] \stoptypescript \starttypescript [sans] [undotum] \definefontsynonym[undotum] [file:undotum] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-sans] \definefontsynonym[undotumbold] [file:undotumbold] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-sansbold] \definefontsynonym[undotumitalic] [file:undotum] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-sansitalic] \definefontsynonym[undotumbolditalic] [file:undotumbold] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-sansbolditalic] \definefontsynonym[undotumslanted] [file:undotum] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-sansslanted] \definefontsynonym[undotumboldslanted] [file:undotumbold] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-sansboldslanted] \definefontsynonym[undotumcaps] [file:undotum] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-sanscaps] \stoptypescript \starttypescript [mono] [untype] \definefontsynonym[untype] [file:untaza] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-mono] \definefontsynonym[untypebold] [file:untaza] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-monobold] \definefontsynonym[untypeitalic] [file:untaza] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-monoitalic] \definefontsynonym[untypebolditalic] [file:untaza] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-monobolditalic] \definefontsynonym[untypeslanted] [file:untaza] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-monoslanted] \definefontsynonym[untypeboldslanted] [file:untaza] [features=kr-slanted,fallbacks=kr-monoboldslanted] \definefontsynonym[untypecaps] [file:untaza] [features=kr-default,fallbacks=kr-monocaps] \stoptypescript \starttypescript [serif] [unbatang] [name] \definefontsynonym[Serif] [unbatang] \definefontsynonym[SerifBold] [unbatangbold] \definefontsynonym[SerifItalic] [unbatangitalic] \definefontsynonym[SerifBoldItalic] [unbatangbolditalic] \definefontsynonym[SerifSlanted] [unbatangslanted] \definefontsynonym[SerifBoldSlanted][unbatangboldslanted] \definefontsynonym[SerifCaps] [unbatangcaps] \stoptypescript \starttypescript [sans] [undotum] [name] \definefontsynonym[Sans] [undotum] \definefontsynonym[SansBold] [undotumbold] \definefontsynonym[SansItalic] [undotumitalic] \definefontsynonym[SansBoldItalic] [undotumbolditalic] \definefontsynonym[SansSlanted] [undotumslanted] \definefontsynonym[SansBoldSlanted] [undotumboldslanted] \definefontsynonym[SansCaps] [undotumcaps] \stoptypescript \starttypescript [mono] [untype] [name] \definefontsynonym[Mono] [untype] \definefontsynonym[MonoBold] [untypebold] \definefontsynonym[MonoItalic] [untypeitalic] \definefontsynonym[MonoBoldItalic] [untypebolditalic] \definefontsynonym[MonoSlanted] [untypeslanted] \definefontsynonym[MonoBoldSlanted] [untypeboldslanted] \definefontsynonym[MonoCaps] [untypecaps] \stoptypescript % xits might get replaced with a texgyre times \starttypescript[unfonts] \definetypeface [unfonts] [rm] [serif] [unbatang] \definetypeface [unfonts] [ss] [sans] [undotum] \definetypeface [unfonts] [tt] [mono] [untype] \definetypeface [unfonts] [mm] [math] [xits] \stoptypescript \stoptypescriptcollection [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 3 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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2012-05-07 10:43 Asian Language Support hwitloc
2012-05-07 13:12 ` S Barmeier
2012-05-07 22:07 ` Hans Hagen
2012-05-07 22:33 ` KUROKI Yusuke
2012-05-08 15:03 ` KUROKI Yusuke
2012-05-08 15:41 ` Hans Hagen
2012-05-07 13:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke
2012-05-07 12:54 ` [***SPAM***] " d.henman
2012-05-07 14:17 ` KUROKI Yusuke
2012-05-08 8:41 ` ABE Noriyuki
2012-05-08 14:11 ` hwitloc
2012-05-08 9:09 ` [***SPAM***] " Hans Hagen
2012-05-07 13:56 ` S Barmeier
2012-05-07 15:54 ` Hans Hagen
2012-05-08 10:39 ` KUROKI Yusuke
2012-05-09 13:37 ` KUROKI Yusuke
[not found] <mailman.3.1336471202.23349.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
2012-05-08 13:48 ` dalyoung
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