* hi @ 2002-07-08 16:32 Hans Hagen 2002-07-08 23:40 ` hi Giuseppe Bilotta 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-08 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi All, Tomorrow i'll try to answers a couple of pending mails. Maybe i'll also post a draft of a few chapters of details.pdf to satisfy the manual hunger. Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-08 16:32 hi Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-08 23:40 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 1:54 ` hi Glenn R. Williams ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-08 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Monday, July 8, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote: HH> Hi All, HH> Tomorrow i'll try to answers a couple of pending mails. Maybe i'll also HH> post a draft of a few chapters of details.pdf to satisfy the manual hunger. I'm posting here because of the generic content: some time ago we had some talk about a possible language replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good choice ... -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-08 23:40 ` hi Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 1:54 ` Glenn R. Williams 2002-07-09 7:01 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 7:15 ` hi Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 10:02 ` Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! Patrick Gundlach 2 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Glenn R. Williams @ 2002-07-09 1:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I'm curious about your comment that Python had very poor regex support. Were you looking at an older version of several years ago when you did the evaluation? Python has very full regex support (perl style), and the latest versions (> 1.6) use very quick algorithms - pcre). Just my two cents... Glenn On Monday 08 July 2002 07:40 pm, Giuseppe Bilotta wrote: > Monday, July 8, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote: > > HH> Hi All, > > HH> Tomorrow i'll try to answers a couple of pending mails. Maybe i'll also > HH> post a draft of a few chapters of details.pdf to satisfy the manual > hunger. > > I'm posting here because of the generic content: > > some time ago we had some talk about a possible language > replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible > choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing > through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good > choice ... - -- Glenn R Williams - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Mathematical theories are the part of science you could continue to do if you woke up tomorrow and discovered the universe was gone" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9KkJ2w/Wcp38R/MkRArPEAKCiizDSb8SdBrBzv2+ClZJX/hu0UgCfUWyA RsMhCRLDJ1SGrXtYLsRG63I= =W56a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: hi 2002-07-09 1:54 ` hi Glenn R. Williams @ 2002-07-09 7:01 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Tuesday, July 9, 2002 Glenn R. Williams wrote: GRW> I'm curious about your comment that Python had very poor regex support. Were GRW> you looking at an older version of several years ago when you did the GRW> evaluation? Python has very full regex support (perl style), and the latest GRW> versions (> 1.6) use very quick algorithms - pcre). Ok, sorry, my mail was definitely not clear on this point: RegEx in Python are very *clumsy* to use. Since they are a very consistent part of the Perl scripts in ConTeXt, ease of use should be a priority. Secondly, I hate Python's way of having "significant whitespace" (esp. indentation) (Note that I use Python quite a bit, since wxPython is really "kewl".) Now I'm having a look around to see if I find wxRuby ... -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-08 23:40 ` hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 1:54 ` hi Glenn R. Williams @ 2002-07-09 7:15 ` Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 9:26 ` hi Berend de Boer 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 10:02 ` Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! Patrick Gundlach 2 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 7:15 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:40:25 +0200 "Giuseppe Bilotta" <gip.bilotta@iol.it> wrote: > > Monday, July 8, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote: > > HH> Hi All, > > HH> Tomorrow i'll try to answers a couple of pending mails. Maybe i'll also > HH> post a draft of a few chapters of details.pdf to satisfy the manual hunger. > > I'm posting here because of the generic content: > > some time ago we had some talk about a possible language > replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible > choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing > through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good > choice ... Yes, Ruby is not a too bad choice. Use Smalltalk instead, if you want a real object-oriented language. Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/) and Gnu-Smalltalk (http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/smalltalk.html) are open-source version of Smalltalk. Gnu-Smalltalk 2.0 got regex support. Cheers, -- Serge Stinckwich -< ) http://multiagent.com/ Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>I3>SMILE /~\ http://squeak.org/ http://www.iutc3.unicaen.fr/serge/ (/ | http://zope.org/ Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] _|_/ http://debian.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-09 7:15 ` hi Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 9:26 ` Berend de Boer 2002-07-09 9:57 ` hi Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 10:14 ` hi Axel Rose 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 1 sibling, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Berend de Boer @ 2002-07-09 9:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: pragma, ntg-context Serge Stinckwich <Serge.Stinckwich@info.unicaen.fr> writes: > > some time ago we had some talk about a possible language > > replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible > > choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing > > through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good > > choice ... > > Yes, Ruby is not a too bad choice. > Use Smalltalk instead, if you want a real object-oriented language. > Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/) and Gnu-Smalltalk (http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/smalltalk.html) are open-source version of Smalltalk. > Gnu-Smalltalk 2.0 got regex support. Yeah, let's start a language war :-)) I advocate SmallEiffel: http://smalleiffel.loria.fr Has regexp too! -- Live long and prosper, Berend de Boer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-09 9:26 ` hi Berend de Boer @ 2002-07-09 9:57 ` Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 10:14 ` hi Axel Rose 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) On 09 Jul 2002 21:26:19 +1200 "Berend de Boer" <berend@pobox.com> wrote: > Serge Stinckwich <Serge.Stinckwich@info.unicaen.fr> writes: > > > > some time ago we had some talk about a possible language > > > replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible > > > choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing > > > through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good > > > choice ... > > > > Yes, Ruby is not a too bad choice. > > Use Smalltalk instead, if you want a real object-oriented language. > > Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/) and Gnu-Smalltalk (http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/smalltalk.html) are open-source version of Smalltalk. > > Gnu-Smalltalk 2.0 got regex support. > > Yeah, let's start a language war :-)) Sorry, i don't want to start a language war ;-) > I advocate SmallEiffel: > > http://smalleiffel.loria.fr > > Has regexp too! Very nice language, but not really script-oriented. -- Serge Stinckwich -< ) http://multiagent.com/ Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>I3>SMILE /~\ http://squeak.org/ http://www.iutc3.unicaen.fr/serge/ (/ | http://zope.org/ Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] _|_/ http://debian.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-09 9:26 ` hi Berend de Boer 2002-07-09 9:57 ` hi Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 10:14 ` Axel Rose 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Axel Rose @ 2002-07-09 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Please, please, please stick with Perl. Even if you wouldn't like the language (a fact I couldn't understand :)) it is nowadays installed with every modern Unix system. It's easy to have it on Windows and I use it on Macs too. Axel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: hi 2002-07-09 7:15 ` hi Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 9:26 ` hi Berend de Boer @ 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 10:15 ` Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-10 8:44 ` hi Fabrice Popineau 1 sibling, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 10:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Tuesday, July 9, 2002 Serge Stinckwich wrote: SS> Yes, Ruby is not a too bad choice. SS> Use Smalltalk instead, if you want a real object-oriented language. SS> Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/) and Gnu-Smalltalk (http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/smalltalk.html) are open-source version of Smalltalk. SS> Gnu-Smalltalk 2.0 got regex support. Not to start a flame war, but I thought Ruby *was* a real OO language --at least that's what the author claims ... Is SmallTalk a scripting language or a compiled language? -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: hi 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 10:15 ` Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-10 8:44 ` hi Fabrice Popineau 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:00:55 +0200 "Giuseppe Bilotta" <gip.bilotta@iol.it> wrote: > > Tuesday, July 9, 2002 Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > SS> Yes, Ruby is not a too bad choice. > SS> Use Smalltalk instead, if you want a real object-oriented language. > SS> Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/) and Gnu-Smalltalk (http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/smalltalk.html) are open-source version of Smalltalk. > SS> Gnu-Smalltalk 2.0 got regex support. > > Not to start a flame war, but I thought Ruby *was* a real OO > language --at least that's what the author claims ... Yes, you are right Ruby is a more OO than Python for example. Someone say that : Smalltalk is more elegant, Perl is more pragmatic. So Ruby is a bit elegant and a bit pragmatic : Ruby = (Smalltalk + Perl)/2 > Is SmallTalk a scripting language or a compiled language? Gnu-Smalltalk is a scripting langage but use byte-code. -- Serge Stinckwich -< ) http://multiagent.com/ Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>I3>SMILE /~\ http://squeak.org/ http://www.iutc3.unicaen.fr/serge/ (/ | http://zope.org/ Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] _|_/ http://debian.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: hi 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 10:15 ` Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-10 8:44 ` Fabrice Popineau 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Fabrice Popineau @ 2002-07-10 8:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Serge Stinckwich, ntg-context * Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: > Not to start a flame war, but I thought Ruby *was* a real OO > language --at least that's what the author claims ... If you want a reall O-O language then use CommonLisp/MOP ! And it has also good support for regex: http://www.geocities.com/mparker762/clawk.html Who would believe that the regex string matcher is x5-x20 faster than the GNU C one ? Fabrice ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-08 23:40 ` hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 1:54 ` hi Glenn R. Williams 2002-07-09 7:15 ` hi Serge Stinckwich @ 2002-07-09 10:02 ` Patrick Gundlach 2002-07-09 21:39 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Patrick Gundlach @ 2002-07-09 10:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: Hi, > some time ago we had some talk about a possible language > replacement for Perl. Python was investigated as a possible > choice, but it had very poor regex support. I'm now glancing > through Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) and it smells like a very good > choice ... Hey guys, what are you talking about? Why should anybody replace texexec and such like? Who should replace it? Who should maintain it? Let us get back to reality. The person who writes a program decides on the language to use. Everything else is unrealistic. There are endless nicer languages then perl out there. But this is just an academic argument. Not a real world argument. Let us focus on more needed stuff like editor support, better integration in TeX distributions etc. Patrick, who is shaking his head because he does not understand why... -- I'll fade into the darkness ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 10:02 ` Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! Patrick Gundlach @ 2002-07-09 21:39 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 22:19 ` Patrick Gundlach 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Tuesday, July 9, 2002 Patrick Gundlach wrote: PG> Hey guys, what are you talking about? Why should anybody replace PG> texexec and such like? Who should replace it? Who should maintain it? PG> Let us get back to reality. The person who writes a program decides on PG> the language to use. Everything else is unrealistic. There are endless PG> nicer languages then perl out there. But this is just an academic PG> argument. Not a real world argument. Let us focus on more needed stuff PG> like editor support, better integration in TeX distributions etc. Well, that's precisely the kind of thing where Perl is being (ab)used for, and another language would be better :) Anyway, my suggestion was mostly oriented to Hans because in the past we did have some talks on possible alternatives to Perl. -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 21:39 ` Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 22:19 ` Patrick Gundlach 2002-07-09 23:01 ` Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 23:32 ` John Culleton 0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Patrick Gundlach @ 2002-07-09 22:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: > Well, that's precisely the kind of thing where Perl is being > (ab)used for, and another language would be better :) what do you mean by "that" and "where"? > > Anyway, my suggestion was mostly oriented to Hans because in the > past we did have some talks on possible alternatives to Perl. OK, it looked as if this was some other "well the program foo should be in a bar-like language that can do some nice stuff. Could anybody else do this, please?" Patrick -- I'll fade into the darkness ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 22:19 ` Patrick Gundlach @ 2002-07-09 23:01 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-10 8:27 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-09 23:32 ` John Culleton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Wednesday, July 10, 2002 Patrick Gundlach wrote: PG> Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: >> Well, that's precisely the kind of thing where Perl is being >> (ab)used for, and another language would be better :) PG> what do you mean by "that" and "where"? Creating an editor, for example. >> Anyway, my suggestion was mostly oriented to Hans because in the >> past we did have some talks on possible alternatives to Perl. PG> OK, it looked as if this was some other "well the program foo should PG> be in a bar-like language that can do some nice stuff. Could anybody PG> else do this, please?" Oj, sorry I gave that impression ... guess it should have been just a private mail to Hans :\ -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 23:01 ` Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-10 8:27 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-10 11:49 ` Re[3]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-10 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context At 01:01 AM 7/10/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Wednesday, July 10, 2002 Patrick Gundlach wrote: > >PG> Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: > > > >> Well, that's precisely the kind of thing where Perl is being > >> (ab)used for, and another language would be better :) > >PG> what do you mean by "that" and "where"? > >Creating an editor, for example. i know -) but tk has some great stuff in it, so the perl/tk code is less than the original modula code Oj, sorry I gave that impression ... guess it should have been >just a private mail to Hans :\ never mind; concerning languages: python is probably ok, but i dislike the indentation idea; smalltalk is ok too, but i only played with it, long ago (the original smalltalk books are great), i've read about eiffel and like the language, will look into ruby when i come across, like lisp because it's clean, like modula because i've done a lot in it; i really like tex but occasionally dislike it due to some missing features; i definitely like metapost; i dislike c because of the syntax, but c++ looks better; i have no opinion yet about java but i dislike the slowness of nts; if i remember well, i liked the machine code of the 1802 processor, etc etc Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[3]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-10 8:27 ` Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-10 11:49 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-10 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Wednesday, July 10, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote: >> Oj, sorry I gave that impression ... guess it should have been >>just a private mail to Hans :\ HH> never mind; concerning languages: python is probably ok, but i dislike the HH> indentation idea; smalltalk is ok too, but i only played with it, long ago HH> (the original smalltalk books are great), i've read about eiffel and like HH> the language, will look into ruby when i come across, like lisp because HH> it's clean, like modula because i've done a lot in it; i really like tex HH> but occasionally dislike it due to some missing features; i definitely like HH> metapost; i dislike c because of the syntax, but c++ looks better; i have HH> no opinion yet about java but i dislike the slowness of nts; if i remember HH> well, i liked the machine code of the 1802 processor, etc etc And where the HECK do you FIND the TIME to do all this??? :D -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-10 8:27 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-10 11:49 ` Re[3]: " Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Ed L Cashin @ 2002-07-18 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context (Let me preface this with the comment that I think perl is a great, but quirky, language, and that it's possible and not too hard to write efficient, readable, reliable, structured large programs in perl.) Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes: > never mind; concerning languages: python is probably ok, but i dislike > the indentation idea; smalltalk is ok too, but i only played with it, > long ago (the original smalltalk books are great), i've read about > eiffel and like the language, will look into ruby when i come across, > like lisp because it's clean, like modula because i've done a lot in > it; i really like tex but occasionally dislike it due to some missing > features; i definitely like metapost; i dislike c because of the > syntax, but c++ looks better; i have no opinion yet about java but i > dislike the slowness of nts; if i remember well, i liked the machine > code of the 1802 processor, etc etc I shared your hesitations regarding Python. When I heard about ruby it seemed too good to be true, and I kept thinking that I wouldn't ever prefer ruby to perl because it wouldn't have such-and-such feature, but the more I learned about it the more impressed I was. I now do prefer ruby. While it's easy to use perl in a clean way, it's easier in ruby, and ruby's design draws from lisp and other sophisticated languages. It would be interesting to design a new typesetting language. :) It should have namespaces, lexical scoping, functions/procedures, objects, and labeled loop constructs like perl (and Java, IIRC). These language features would eliminate a lot of the hairier shenanighans that the ConTeXt developers have to go through in order to do interesting things. -- --Ed L Cashin | PGP public key: ecashin@uga.edu | http://noserose.net/e/pgp/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin @ 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-19 15:21 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-19 16:10 ` Arun 2002-07-18 18:46 ` Johannes Hüsing 2002-07-19 5:45 ` Re[4]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-18 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context At 10:06 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, Ed L Cashin wrote: >(Let me preface this with the comment that I think perl is a great, >but quirky, language, and that it's possible and not too hard to write >efficient, readable, reliable, structured large programs in perl.) > >Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes: > > > never mind; concerning languages: python is probably ok, but i dislike > > the indentation idea; smalltalk is ok too, but i only played with it, > > long ago (the original smalltalk books are great), i've read about > > eiffel and like the language, will look into ruby when i come across, > > like lisp because it's clean, like modula because i've done a lot in > > it; i really like tex but occasionally dislike it due to some missing > > features; i definitely like metapost; i dislike c because of the > > syntax, but c++ looks better; i have no opinion yet about java but i > > dislike the slowness of nts; if i remember well, i liked the machine > > code of the 1802 processor, etc etc > >I shared your hesitations regarding Python. When I heard about ruby >it seemed too good to be true, and I kept thinking that I wouldn't >ever prefer ruby to perl because it wouldn't have such-and-such >feature, but the more I learned about it the more impressed I was. I >now do prefer ruby. > >While it's easy to use perl in a clean way, it's easier in ruby, and >ruby's design draws from lisp and other sophisticated languages. > >It would be interesting to design a new typesetting language. :) It >should have namespaces, lexical scoping, functions/procedures, >objects, and labeled loop constructs like perl (and Java, IIRC). > >These language features would eliminate a lot of the hairier >shenanighans that the ConTeXt developers have to go through in order >to do interesting things. Last week i downloaded some ruby documentation and i was impressed too, looks pretty clean and ok. So, when i have time ... With regards to typesetting, hairy indeed, but in many cases it's the problem itself that is also hairy; also recently i added a couple of things to context that i should have added before, since they would hav esaved me much time -) Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-19 15:21 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-19 16:10 ` Arun 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Ed L Cashin @ 2002-07-19 15:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes: ... > With regards to typesetting, hairy indeed, but in many cases it's > the problem itself that is also hairy; also recently i added a > couple of things to context that i should have added before, since > they would hav esaved me much time -) One of the nice things about context is that there's been a lot of attention paid to its infrastructure. So you've already got, for example, nestable looping constructs if I recall correctly. -- --Ed L Cashin | PGP public key: ecashin@uga.edu | http://noserose.net/e/pgp/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-19 15:21 ` Ed L Cashin @ 2002-07-19 16:10 ` Arun 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Arun @ 2002-07-19 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 11:39 AM, Hans Hagen wrote: > > Last week i downloaded some ruby documentation and i was impressed too, > looks pretty clean and ok. So, when i have time ... > Ruby will be installed by default on the next Mac OS X, along with Perl and Python, so mac users will not need to install anything extra if you decide to go in this direction.... - Arun ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-18 18:46 ` Johannes Hüsing 2002-07-19 15:27 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-19 5:45 ` Re[4]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Johannes Hüsing @ 2002-07-18 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:06:47AM -0400, Ed L Cashin wrote: [...] > It would be interesting to design a new typesetting language. :) It > should have namespaces, lexical scoping, functions/procedures, > objects, and labeled loop constructs like perl (and Java, IIRC). > Wasn't that part of the idea of NTS? Greetings Johannes -- Johannes Hüsing There is something fascinating about science. One gets hannes@ruhrau.de such wholesale returns of conjecture from such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 18:46 ` Johannes Hüsing @ 2002-07-19 15:27 ` Ed L Cashin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Ed L Cashin @ 2002-07-19 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Johannes Hüsing <hannes@ruhrau.de> writes: > On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:06:47AM -0400, Ed L Cashin wrote: > [...] > > It would be interesting to design a new typesetting language. :) It > > should have namespaces, lexical scoping, functions/procedures, > > objects, and labeled loop constructs like perl (and Java, IIRC). > > > > Wasn't that part of the idea of NTS? I don't know. When I saw a demo, they were emphasising its ability to act like tex. The example they showed was a run where the NTS system processed the source for the TeXbook. It was orders of magnitude slower than Knuth's tex, so some people did not seem impressed. The website at nts.tug.org states that: Since NTS V0 is intended to be an exact re-implementation of TeX, some have suggested (only partially in jest) that it be renamed "OTS" ("Old Typesetting System"); certainly this alternative name is a more accurate description for the first release, but it does little to emphasise the extensible nature of NTS; for that reason, the project will continue to be called NTS, and it is hoped that Karel will also be in a position to demonstrate this extensibility by leading an "Extending NTS" workshop at TUG 2000. ... so it doesn't sound as ambitious as what I was suggesting -- a new language that had all those features right in it. NTS seems to be the old system but with greater possibilities for extension. -- --Ed L Cashin | PGP public key: ecashin@uga.edu | http://noserose.net/e/pgp/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re[4]: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-18 18:46 ` Johannes Hüsing @ 2002-07-19 5:45 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-19 5:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context Thursday, July 18, 2002 Ed L Cashin wrote: ELC> I shared your hesitations regarding Python. When I heard about ruby ELC> it seemed too good to be true, and I kept thinking that I wouldn't ELC> ever prefer ruby to perl because it wouldn't have such-and-such ELC> feature, but the more I learned about it the more impressed I was. I ELC> now do prefer ruby. ELC> While it's easy to use perl in a clean way, it's easier in ruby, and ELC> ruby's design draws from lisp and other sophisticated languages. A lot of Ruby say that a proficient Perl programmer (and I guess Hans and Taco fall in this category) can grasp the core of Rupy in one day, and 95% of it in a couple of days. So it probably wouldn't be too hard to switch. ELC> It would be interesting to design a new typesetting language. :) It ELC> should have namespaces, lexical scoping, functions/procedures, ELC> objects, and labeled loop constructs like perl (and Java, IIRC). ELC> These language features would eliminate a lot of the hairier ELC> shenanighans that the ConTeXt developers have to go through in order ELC> to do interesting things. Well, I was thinking of Ruby as a scripting language (to obtain texexec.rb, texutil.rb & co), but now that you make me think of it ... TeX in Ruby? Wow, sounds interesting! -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 22:19 ` Patrick Gundlach 2002-07-09 23:01 ` Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2002-07-09 23:32 ` John Culleton 2002-07-10 7:28 ` Taco Hoekwater 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: John Culleton @ 2002-07-09 23:32 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tuesday 09 July 2002 06:19 pm, Patrick Gundlach wrote: > Giuseppe Bilotta <gip.bilotta@iol.it> writes: > > Well, that's precisely the kind of thing where Perl is being > > (ab)used for, and another language would be better :) > Ah, yes, the search for the perfect language. I remember when APL (which was built around the keyboard of a long-departed IBM terminal) was considered the salvation of Western Civilization. Then there was PL/I. It did everything possible, and did it with such inefficiency that even IBM in its heyday couldn't market it sucessfully. I see no fatal defects in texexec, and until one is demonstrated changing languages "just because" seems a waste of scarce Hans-power. There are lots of neat features that need to be added- debugged and/or documented in Context. I wouldn't presume to suggest what should be done next, but searching for the Holy Grail of the more perfect scripting language is pretty far down on the priority list, IMHO. John Culleton __________________________________________________ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-09 23:32 ` John Culleton @ 2002-07-10 7:28 ` Taco Hoekwater 2002-07-10 20:44 ` Johannes Hüsing 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2002-07-10 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context I wholeheartedly agree with John. To put it another way: if someone really wants texexec.py or texexec.rb, that person should write (and maintain) the scripts. On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:32:27 -0400 "John Culleton" <john@wexfordpress.com> wrote: > debugged and/or documented in Context. I wouldn't presume to suggest what > should be done next, but searching for the Holy Grail of the more perfect > scripting language is pretty far down on the priority list, IMHO. > > John Culleton > > > __________________________________________________ > D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" > http://www.doteasy.com -- groeten, Taco ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! 2002-07-10 7:28 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2002-07-10 20:44 ` Johannes Hüsing 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Johannes Hüsing @ 2002-07-10 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:28:46AM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > I wholeheartedly agree with John. To put it another way: if someone > really wants texexec.py or texexec.rb, that person should write > (and maintain) the scripts. > One thing I am thinking about is tinkering with texfont. There is a somewhat rudimentary font installer which comes with the Debian GNU/Linux distribution called the Debian Font Manager. I would like to build a version of texfont that is in line with the architecture of this package, so new fonts that are installed within Debian (for X and PostScript) are automatically set up for ConTeXt. But then, time ... Johannes -- Johannes Hüsing There is something fascinating about science. One gets hannes@ruhrau.de such wholesale returns of conjecture from such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-07-19 16:10 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 27+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-07-08 16:32 hi Hans Hagen 2002-07-08 23:40 ` hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 1:54 ` hi Glenn R. Williams 2002-07-09 7:01 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 7:15 ` hi Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 9:26 ` hi Berend de Boer 2002-07-09 9:57 ` hi Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-09 10:14 ` hi Axel Rose 2002-07-09 10:00 ` Re[2]: hi Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 10:15 ` Serge Stinckwich 2002-07-10 8:44 ` hi Fabrice Popineau 2002-07-09 10:02 ` Perl is evil, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby, Python is the way to go! Patrick Gundlach 2002-07-09 21:39 ` Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 22:19 ` Patrick Gundlach 2002-07-09 23:01 ` Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-10 8:27 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-10 11:49 ` Re[3]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-18 14:06 ` Re[2]: " Ed L Cashin 2002-07-18 15:39 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-19 15:21 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-19 16:10 ` Arun 2002-07-18 18:46 ` Johannes Hüsing 2002-07-19 15:27 ` Ed L Cashin 2002-07-19 5:45 ` Re[4]: " Giuseppe Bilotta 2002-07-09 23:32 ` John Culleton 2002-07-10 7:28 ` Taco Hoekwater 2002-07-10 20:44 ` Johannes Hüsing
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