I'm confused again. :\ When do you use a \defineSOMETHING instead of \setupSOMETHING ? Must something be "\define"'ed before it is "\setup" or is it the other way around or is one required or one not or.... Reading the manual and wiki just leaves me more confused since examples are given which use one OR the other but don't seem to require both. Or am I missing something again. Reading the pages for the individual commands doesn't help since it is often the case the page detailing the "\define" commands mostly seem to imply "\define" inherits from "\setup". Sigh. -- Bill Meahan, Westland, Michigan USA “Writing is a combination of intangible creative fantasy and appallingly hard work.” —Anthony Powell This message is digitally signed with an X.509 certificate to prove it is from me and has not been altered since it was sent.