Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

["H. Özoguz"]

> 100 % automated typesetting
> with 100 % perfect results is impossible

Hans, I dont think so. Manual typesetting is not "100 % perfect", too. Why automated typesetting shouldn't be able
to obtain the same results, like men – some day. Of course that needs much more than just typesetting-rules, e.g. some times
one has to rephrase some sentences to get a good result, but this will be possible for programms in future, too.
For typesetting alorithms it holds the same, like for chess programms in the past, now fulfilled:
They will get to the men-level, and even (far) beyond that.

Huseyin

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Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/13/2013 11:53 AM, "H. Özoguz" wrote:
>> 100 % automated typesetting
>> with 100 % perfect results is impossible
>
> Hans, I dont think so. Manual typesetting is not "100 % perfect", too.
> Why automated typesetting shouldn't be able
> to obtain the same results, like men – some day. Of course that needs
> much more than just typesetting-rules, e.g. some times
> one has to rephrase some sentences to get a good result, but this will
> be possible for programms in future, too.
> For typesetting alorithms it holds the same, like for chess programms in
> the past, now fulfilled:
> They will get to the men-level, and even (far) beyond that.

Chess has quite precise rules (and I wonder if a chess program will 
choose an nice but risky step over a winning one) while typesetting also 
involves esthetics and therefore only a simulation of what goes on into 
someones head can help out.

It will probably take some years to reach the point where we have 
hard/software that can match or bypass human brains in that area but at 
that point there might be no reason for typesetting any more as we then 
can as well render (given proper sources) realtime using implants and 
directly project on our retina or even skip that step of rendering 
altogether and consume raw data.

Also, given that in education currently we struggle with the fact that
kids have a small attention span and get difficulties with reading texts 
longer than a tweet (I have to admit I never twet myself) we might as 
well start thinking simple and small: ragged right, not hyphenated, etc. 
the fashion in dutch education already for years (thanks to professional 
dtp systems not capable of doing flushed properly so that designers 
entered 'no risk mode').

http://www.fontaineuitgevers.nl/wp/kleine-twittercursus-van-het-heelal/

So, what remains of typesetting is the craft and somewhat manual aspect: 
liking 'this' more that 'that' and messing a bit around.

Hans

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Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/12/2013 8:28 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> In TeX it is possible to discourage two consecutive hyphens, but there
> is no way to prohibit or strongly discourage three or more.
> Technically, this would mean a slight extension of the current
> algorithm by keeping track of the number of hyphens in a row. None of
> today's engines supports that concept."

no need to adapt the engine ... it's probably not that hard to support 
that in luatex but one can wonder if it solves the issue: th emore 
demands one has, the solution space also becomes smaller so probably 
someplace else another problem surfaces ... 100 % automated typesetting 
with 100 % perfect results is impossible

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

[Marcin Borkowski]

Dnia 2013-04-12, o godz. 12:20:20
"Thomas A. Schmitz" <thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de> napisał(a):

> On 04/12/2013 11:13 AM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > You can add \setupalign[stretch] to your document which increases
> > the space between words, it is only a small value and helps in some
> > cases.
> 
> I could have sworn there was a way to set the maximum number of 
> consecutive lines which can be hyphenated, but all I find now is 
> \doublehyphendemerits, which is just for two consecutive lines (which 
> may be a bit too drastic for German texts).

Better not swear;).

From Frank Mittelbach's paper (see
http://latex-community.org/know-how/latex/55-latex-general/475-e-tex#line-breaking):

"Issue: Managing consecutive hyphens in a general way

In TeX it is possible to discourage two consecutive hyphens, but there
is no way to prohibit or strongly discourage three or more.
Technically, this would mean a slight extension of the current
algorithm by keeping track of the number of hyphens in a row. None of
today's engines supports that concept."

> Thomas

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Adam Mickiewicz University
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Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 04/12/2013 11:13 AM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> You can add \setupalign[stretch] to your document which increases the space between words, it is only a small value and helps in some cases.


I could have sworn there was a way to set the maximum number of 
consecutive lines which can be hyphenated, but all I find now is 
\doublehyphendemerits, which is just for two consecutive lines (which 
may be a bit too drastic for German texts).

Thomas
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Re: Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 12.04.2013 um 11:02 schrieb "H. Özoguz" <h.oezoguz@mmnetz.de>:

> Hi (sorry for many questions today :)),
> 
> with German you often have the problem, that words are long (most often much longer than english words). So ConTeXt have to break them. But there is a typographical rule: "Do not break words at the end of lines in more than three consecutive lines."
> 
> So four (or more) breaks each ofter another (line), is forbidden and considered as ugly! By default, ConTeXt does this in many cases, specially with DIN A5 and long words. And I have to manually fix this in every case, that is normal and ok.
> Is there a way to highlight these attempts of more than three consecutive breaks in one paragraph? Would be easier to find, and to not-oversee.
> 
> Future suggestion: Perfectly ConTeXt would try to avoid those breaks, but I suspect that would end in ungly kerning and unnormal gaps between words, correct?

You can add \setupalign[stretch] to your document which increases the space between words, it is only a small value and helps in some cases.

Wolfgang
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Too many word-breaks in consecutive lines

["H. Özoguz"]

Hi (sorry for many questions today :)),

with German you often have the problem, that words are long (most often 
much longer than english words). So ConTeXt have to break them. But 
there is a typographical rule: "Do not break words at the end of lines 
in more than three consecutive lines."

So four (or more) breaks each ofter another (line), is forbidden and 
considered as ugly! By default, ConTeXt does this in many cases, 
specially with DIN A5 and long words. And I have to manually fix this in 
every case, that is normal and ok.
Is there a way to highlight these attempts of more than three 
consecutive breaks in one paragraph? Would be easier to find, and to 
not-oversee.

Future suggestion: Perfectly ConTeXt would try to avoid those breaks, 
but I suspect that would end in ungly kerning and unnormal gaps between 
words, correct?

Huseyin
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