Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Georg Duffner]

Am 22.06.2013 16:57, schrieb Hans Hagen:

> We have no feature 'size' (or I must have forgotten about it). As
> there is no consistency in designsizes and there is always some
> esthetic choice involved no automatic mechanism is (and will be)
> build in.

Hi,

There is a 'size' table in opentype fonts which contains informations 
about the design size, the design range and a style-ID and -name. Fonts 
that come with different optical sizes do in fact use that table exactly 
for the purpose desired by Andrés. Latin Modern does so, Adobe fonts do 
so and EB Garamond happens to use that table too. XeLaTeX and LuaLaTeX 
interpret it correctly (by means of fontspec, IIRC). So perhaps it’s 
worth reconsidering this.

Best regards,
Georg
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Keith J. Schultz]

HI Georg, All,

as such ConTexT should support the use of the size table in its font handling,
but as Hans has mentioned design sizes a very special and few actually know 
what that information means and put it to a useful purpose.

Question would be in far this font feature should be rudimentarily supported.

regards
	Keith.

Am 24.06.2013 um 00:28 schrieb Georg Duffner <g.duffner@gmail.com>:

> Am 22.06.2013 16:57, schrieb Hans Hagen:
> 
>> We have no feature 'size' (or I must have forgotten about it). As
>> there is no consistency in designsizes and there is always some
>> esthetic choice involved no automatic mechanism is (and will be)
>> build in.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> There is a 'size' table in opentype fonts which contains informations about the design size, the design range and a style-ID and -name. Fonts that come with different optical sizes do in fact use that table exactly for the purpose desired by Andrés. Latin Modern does so, Adobe fonts do so and EB Garamond happens to use that table too. XeLaTeX and LuaLaTeX interpret it correctly (by means of fontspec, IIRC). So perhaps it’s worth reconsidering this.
> 
> Best regards,
> Georg
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2013 10:02 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> HI Georg, All,
>
> as such ConTexT should support the use of the size table in its font handling,
> but as Hans has mentioned design sizes a very special and few actually know
> what that information means and put it to a useful purpose.
>
> Question would be in far this font feature should be rudimentarily supported.

it is (and has always been) supported, given that one loads the goodie 
file and sets the option, and it's not even that rudimentary (and as you 
say, design sizes are dangerous when misused)

Hans

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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2013 12:28 AM, Georg Duffner wrote:
> Am 22.06.2013 16:57, schrieb Hans Hagen:
>
>> We have no feature 'size' (or I must have forgotten about it). As
>> there is no consistency in designsizes and there is always some
>> esthetic choice involved no automatic mechanism is (and will be)
>> build in.
>
> Hi,
>
> There is a 'size' table in opentype fonts which contains informations
> about the design size, the design range and a style-ID and -name. Fonts
> that come with different optical sizes do in fact use that table exactly
> for the purpose desired by Andrés. Latin Modern does so, Adobe fonts do
> so and EB Garamond happens to use that table too. XeLaTeX and LuaLaTeX
> interpret it correctly (by means of fontspec, IIRC). So perhaps it’s
> worth reconsidering this.

It's too much trouble for the few fonts that come in design sizes. As 
typescripts need to be defined adding the bit of extra info is no 
problem. I had a look at the relevant info and in order to make it work 
with the context font loader (the name driven one, as for files it is 
irrelevant anyway) quite some fuzzy logic has to be applied: we need a 
proper way (at least in context) to identify regular, italic, bold 
italic etc combined with the font name and the fact that names (as well 
as modifiers) are poluted makes that for lm a different logic has to be 
applied than for eb and if I don't do some filtering we get an 
inconsistent lot of of antykwas being seen as a design size collection 
as well.  I just tried to make a an auto-internal-goodie generator and 
some tracing showed me that if we can get 50% done right, we need to 
work around the other 50%. (I have lots of fonts on my system).

So for the moment I'll stick to providing goodies files. After all, 
users load a relevant typescript anyway so much gets hidden. If we get 
dozens of design sized files I'll look into it again.

Hans


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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Andres Conrado]

Thank you so much Hans, for your answer. I understand how difficult it
is. The goodie file works very well, and I'm perfectly happy with
that. :) Thank you again.

Andrés Conrado Montoya
El Andi
andresconrado@gmail.com
http://chiquitico.org
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Andres Conrado Montoya]

Thank you so much, Hans. :) It works great!.

I must agree, however, with Georg's considerations. I am very grateful
for the current solution, but an automatic selection of optical sizes
could be insanely good, from a book designer point of view (I'm a book
designer). Just for the curious, these are some links that go deeper
in the theme of Optical Sizes for Typography:

1. http://www.adobe.com/type/topics/opticalsize.html
2. http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/8552/should-i-be-concerned-about-optimal-font-size-for-a-particular-font
3. http://ilovetypography.com/2012/04/11/designing-type-systems/
4. Book: Typography Monographs Vol. 2 - "Size-specific Adjustments to
Type Designs: An Investigation of the Principles Guiding the Design of
Optical Sizes" by Tim Ahrens, MA.
http://markbattypublisher.com/books/typography-monographs-volume-2-size-specific-adjustments-to-type-designs-an-investigation-of-the-principles-guiding-the-design-of-optical-sizes/

Thank you all. :)

Andrés Conrado Montoya
El Andi
andresconrado@gmail.com
http://chiquitico.org
http://twitter.com/conradolandia
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/25/2013 6:16 AM, Andres Conrado Montoya wrote:
> Thank you so much, Hans. :) It works great!.
>
> I must agree, however, with Georg's considerations. I am very grateful
> for the current solution, but an automatic selection of optical sizes
> could be insanely good, from a book designer point of view (I'm a book
> designer). Just for the curious, these are some links that go deeper
> in the theme of Optical Sizes for Typography:

Optical sizes have always been part of tex (macro packages) and are also 
one of the reasons why tex font subsystems are complex:

- fonts often provide only some styles / variants in sizes, so fallbacks 
need to be supported
- names are highly inconsistent, so there is no systematic robust 
solution that automates it
- only a few fonts provide optical sizes and the whole font machinery 
must not suffer (in performance) from this
- fonts can be combined in any way with other designs (and we also need 
to take math into account)

Now, the only case where optical sizes are really robustly implemented 
is in open type math as there the shapes are in one file and by opening 
this one file one gets all the information: no need to analyze names and 
whatever and deduce if/where the other sizes sit. The alternative set 
can have a smaller repertoire too.

This is more complex when sizes are spread over fonts. One cannot rely 
on the names of files (name8whatever vs name05whatever vs namewhatever4 
etc) so one has to analyze the font son the system but often internal 
names in the font also suffer from this. Then there are combinations of 
'bare name' (should have no number in it), weight, width, style, 
whatever and again this is not guaranteed consistent.

You really don't want to know how much time went into figuring out a 
decent way to analyze fonts on the system and make sure that users at 
least with a certain degree of certainty can use a 'name:' or even 
'spec:' locator. Personally I *never* use font names but only trust 
filenames because i don't want to be surprised by an updated where 
internal names changed and (in automated flows) fonts sort of dissappear 
due to this. And, the designsize feature combined with lfg files 
guarantee me that I can still use designsizes then (after all, texies 
expect lm designsizes to be supported).

So, back to optical sizes. As said, they are supported. If one has the 
goodie file (will be in next upload) and asks for the eb bodyfont in the 
way demonstrated in the typescript size matching logic will be applied. 
But in a controlled way, so you know what you get. But nevertheless it's 
automatic then. (In your sample code you used some size key, in context 
we specify that we want to use designsizes so it all boils down to 
specifying anyway.)

Any further automation will only make things worse: nothing is as 
frustrating as fighting built in cleverness. Now, I'll not go into 
details to much about eb (which is a nice font btw) but the fact that in 
a font file there is mention of a design size range is nothing special: 
many fonts in my texmf-fonts tree have such ranges and most of them have 
only one optical size, so one thing a selector then has to figure out 
is: are there more. And of course there are, if you look at some 
properties, because of inconsistent naming and tagging as mentioned, 
following some logic, all kind of antykwa fonts suddenly could end op in 
a pool of optical sizes but they are in fact all different in specific 
properties. The same is true for more fonts. So what should one look at? 
The filename: no universal system behind it. The font name? Idem, some 
have a number (size) in it some haven't. Qualifiers like Italic Ital Ita 
are all used mixed. Some fonts have extra flags? But often these have 
weird values so one cannot rely too much on it.

We see things like

  ["design_range_bottom"]=0,
  ["design_range_top"]=94,
  ["design_size"]=80,
  ["encodingchanged"]=0,
  ["extrema_bound"]=0,
  ["familyname"]="EB Garamond 08",
  ["fontname"]="EBGaramond08-Italic",
  ["fontstyle_id"]=2,
  ["fontstyle_name"]={
   {
    ["lang"]=1033,
    ["name"]="Italic",
   },
  },

and

     ["compatfull"]="EB Garamond 08 Italic",
     ["family"]="EB Garamond 08",
     ["fullname"]="EB Garamond 08 Italic",
     ["postscriptname"]="EBGaramond08-Italic",
     ["preffamilyname"]="EB Garamond",
     ["prefmodifiers"]="08 Italic",
     ["subfamily"]="Italic",
     ["uniqueid"]="FontForge 2.0 : EB Garamond 08 Italic : 2-1-2013",


So how is a system supposed to know to look for EBGaramond12-Italic or 
EBGaramond4Italic or whatever. Some heuristics have to be applied and as 
I mentioned in an earlier mail, I played a bit with it and although I 
can make you happy by supporting EB sizing automatic (of course with 
toms way to disable it) another user will be bitten by false matches and 
missing ones for other fonts (hard to trace).

To be honest: I'd already given up on fonts and names and whatever being 
systematic and logic etc ... Just as I've also given up on open type 
guaranteeing consistency or open type math taking care of all messy 
aspects of math fonts. (And of course the same is true for automated 
typesetting: it will never be possible to fully automate if only because 
each user has different expectations and conditions are unpredictable).

So, as you mention several links to typographic sites ... it's craft and 
configuring what you want is not too hard. I wouldn't be surprised if 
those who claim that this or that size should be honored on the other 
hand have no problem with messing up the inter character spacing, do 
some optical scaling on the font and worse.

Hans

ps. The same discussion can be held about what features to enable. It 
assumes fonts to be set up properly. I have fonts here that have 
oldstyles shapes as (hard coded) default and regular alternatives so in 
fact they assume onum is explicltly off i guess. While one can argue 
that the font should not have oldstyles as default shapes but in 
alternates. So, opentype can make live easier (no encodings) but also 
demands that users know what and look at what they're doing.

Pointing to what other systems do is pointless as I've heard talks about 
professional typesetting systems that with each version started 
supporting or enabling or showing in menus more 'font features' while in 
fact most otf font features are so generic that you can support them all 
right from the start. So again, in context, you can turn on and off 
features, choose the ones you like, and even add your own. If some 
category is supported, all are. (No additional secret unlock keys needed.)

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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Georg Duffner]

Am 2013-06-24 10:27, schrieb Keith J. Schultz:

> as such ConTexT should support the use of the size table in its font handling,
> but as Hans has mentioned design sizes a very special and few actually know
> what that information means and put it to a useful purpose.
>
> Question would be in far this font feature should be rudimentarily supported.

IMO, they should be fully supported. There are not so many fonts with 
that property and even less in the free software world, so one can 
assume that somebody possessing such font knows what that means and 
probably expects its support.

I think, context should by default use the appropriate font for each 
font-size corresponding to the design range defined in the font’s table, 
while providing an interface to override that automatism.

Best regards,
Georg
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2013 11:49 AM, Georg Duffner wrote:
> Am 2013-06-24 10:27, schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
>
>> as such ConTexT should support the use of the size table in its font
>> handling,
>> but as Hans has mentioned design sizes a very special and few actually
>> know
>> what that information means and put it to a useful purpose.
>>
>> Question would be in far this font feature should be rudimentarily
>> supported.
>
> IMO, they should be fully supported. There are not so many fonts with
> that property and even less in the free software world, so one can
> assume that somebody possessing such font knows what that means and
> probably expects its support.

It doesn't change the fact that predictable font names (including 
weight, width, variant and modifier) are (and will remain) a mess so 
users need to know precisely what they ask for, even automatisms kick 
in. Ok, most users won't notice as dont definition files take care of 
loading, but in that case taking care of the designsizes can be hidden 
as well (which it is).

> I think, context should by default use the appropriate font for each
> font-size corresponding to the design range defined in the font’s table,
> while providing an interface to override that automatism.

Well, in that case we should also obey min/max specs that say that fonts 
cannot be used below or above certain sizes (and I found quite some that 
has such narrow ranges).

In the case of eb ... it's just a few entries in a goodie file, so that 
does the job. In pratice, finding a properly matched and sized monospace 
and math takes more time -)

Hans

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Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Andres Conrado Montoya]

Hello friends.
I'm trying to design a book using the typescript you can find at the
end of this message. I'm using the beautiful EBGaramond fonts from
Georg Duffner (http://www.georgduffner.at/ebgaramond/). This font
provides optical sizes to be used in different sizes (named "12" for
10.1pt or more, and "8" for 10 or less. These fonts automatically work
as expected in latex, thanks to a recent package included in CTAN
(ebgaramond package), selecting the correct font for the appropriate
size. However, the typescript I'm using selects the "8" size for
everything, without taking the type size into consideration. Is there
any way to make ConTeXt do this automatic selection of fonts regarding
of type size? I'm using version 2013.06.10 22:51.

Here is my example:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\enableregime[utf-8]
\mainlanguage[es]
\setupcapitals[sc=yes]

\definefontfeature[default][default]
[mode=node,calt=yes,liga=yes,dlig=yes,hlig=yes,ccmp=yes,kern=yes,mark=yes,mkmk=yes,onum=yes,pnum=yes,salt=yes,size=yes,expansion=quality,protrusion=quality]

\definefontfeature[smallcaps][smallcaps]
[mode=node,script=latn,smcp=yes,c2sc=yes,calt=yes,liga=yes,dlig=yes,hlig=yes,ccmp=yes,kern=yes,mark=yes,mkmk=yes,onum=yes,pnum=yes,salt=yes,size=yes,expansion=quality,protrusion=quality]

\starttypescript[serif][ebgaramond]
  \setups[font:fallback:serif]
  \definefontsynonym [EBGaramond-Regular]    [name:EBGaramond-Regular]
  \definefontsynonym [EBGaramond-Italic]     [name:EBGaramond-Italic]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[serif][ebgaramond]
  \definefontsynonym [Serif]           [EBGaramond-Regular]
[features=default]
  \definefontsynonym [SerifItalic]     [EBGaramond-Italic]
[features=default]
  \definefontsynonym [SerifCaps]       [Serif]
[features=smallcaps]
\stoptypescript

\definetypeface[ebg][rm][serif][ebgaramond][default]
\setupbodyfont[ebg,12pt]
\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]

\setupinterlinespace[line=3.2ex]

\setupalign[lesshyphenation,hz,hanging]
\doublehyphendemerits=30000
\setupspacing[packed]

\starttext
\showframe
\showgrid

\input tufte
\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


Thank so much for all your good work and help. :)
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 22/06/13 01:43, Andres Conrado Montoya wrote:
> Hello friends.
> I'm trying to design a book using the typescript you can find at the
> end of this message. I'm using the beautiful EBGaramond fonts from
> Georg Duffner (http://www.georgduffner.at/ebgaramond/). This font
> provides optical sizes to be used in different sizes (named "12" for
> 10.1pt or more, and "8" for 10 or less. These fonts automatically work
> as expected in latex, thanks to a recent package included in CTAN
> (ebgaramond package), selecting the correct font for the appropriate
> size. However, the typescript I'm using selects the "8" size for
> everything, without taking the type size into consideration. Is there
> any way to make ConTeXt do this automatic selection of fonts regarding
> of type size? I'm using version 2013.06.10 22:51.

Hi Andrés,

sorry for not giving more information on this, because I don't
understand how it works.

Here you have an example: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Optical_Size. (I
guess you forgot the font assignment.)

Wolfgang, wouldn't it be possible to implement optical sizes in
simplefonts? So the user could benefit from ease of use.


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: Auto selecting optical sizes for a font

[Hans Hagen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1936 bytes --]

On 6/22/2013 1:43 AM, Andres Conrado Montoya wrote:
> Hello friends.
> I'm trying to design a book using the typescript you can find at the
> end of this message. I'm using the beautiful EBGaramond fonts from
> Georg Duffner (http://www.georgduffner.at/ebgaramond/). This font
> provides optical sizes to be used in different sizes (named "12" for
> 10.1pt or more, and "8" for 10 or less. These fonts automatically work
> as expected in latex, thanks to a recent package included in CTAN
> (ebgaramond package), selecting the correct font for the appropriate
> size. However, the typescript I'm using selects the "8" size for
> everything, without taking the type size into consideration. Is there
> any way to make ConTeXt do this automatic selection of fonts regarding
> of type size? I'm using version 2013.06.10 22:51.

We have no feature 'size' (or I must have forgotten about it). As there 
is no consistency in designsizes and there is always some esthetic 
choice involved no automatic mechanism is (and will be) build in.

However, as the traditional tex fonts come in designsizes we do have a 
way to deal with them via so called font goodies. I made you a goodie 
file for ebgaramond as well as typescript. (You need to convince Mojca 
to add the otf fonts to the distribution.)

Just put the goodie and typescript files in the base path and run mtxrun 
--generate after that. We need to choose a proper matching math font (or 
seek funding for a  gust garamond math font project).

The demo file shows how to kick in

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[-- Attachment #2: ebgaramond.lfg --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 1729 bytes --]

return {
    name = "eb garamond",
    version = "1.00",
    comment = "Goodies that complement eb garamond.",
    author = "Hans Hagen",
    copyright = "ConTeXt development team",
    designsizes = {
        ["EBGaramond-Italic"] = {
            ["8pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-Italic",
            ["9pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-Italic",
            ["10pt"] = "file:EBGaramond08-Italic",
            ["11pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-Italic",
            ["12pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-Italic",
            default  = "file:EBGaramond12-Italic",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-Regular"] = {
            ["8pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-Regular",
            ["9pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-Regular",
            ["10pt"] = "file:EBGaramond08-Regular",
            ["11pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-Regular",
            ["12pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-Regular",
            default  = "file:EBGaramond12-Regular",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-SC"] = {
            ["8pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-SC",
            ["9pt"]  = "file:EBGaramond08-SC",
            ["10pt"] = "file:EBGaramond08-SC",
            ["11pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-SC",
            ["12pt"] = "file:EBGaramond12-SC",
            default  = "file:EBGaramond12-SC",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-Bold"] = {
            default  = "file:EBGaramond12-Bold",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-AllSC"] = {
            default  = "file:EBGaramond12-AllSC",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-Initials"] = {
            default  = "file:EBGaramondInitials",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-InitialsF1"] = {
            default  = "file:EBGaramondInitialsF1",
        },
        ["EBGaramond-InitialsF2"] = {
            default  = "file:EBGaramondInitialsF2",
        },
    }
}



[-- Attachment #3: type-imp-ebgaramond.tex --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 1589 bytes --]

%D \module
%D   [       file=type-imp-ebgaramond,
%D        version=2013.06.22,
%D          title=\CONTEXT\ Typescript Macros,
%D       subtitle=EB Garamond,
%D         author=Hans Hagen,
%D           date=\currentdate,
%D      copyright={PRAGMA ADE \& \CONTEXT\ Development Team}]
%C
%C This module is part of the \CONTEXT\ macro||package and is
%C therefore copyrighted by \PRAGMA. See mreadme.pdf for
%C details.

\definefontfeature
  [eb-garamond-normal]
  [default]
  [mode=node,ccmp=yes,calt=yes,
   liga=yes,dlig=yes,hlig=yes,
   kern=yes,mark=yes,mkmk=yes,
   onum=yes,pnum=yes,salt=yes,
   script=latn]

\definefontfeature
  [eb-garamond-smallcaps]
  [eb-garamond-normal]
  [smcp=yes,c2sc=yes]

\starttypescriptcollection[ebgaramond]

    \starttypescript [serif] [ebgaramond]
        \loadfontgoodies[ebgaramond]
        \setups[font:fallback:serif]
        \definefontsynonym [Serif]       [file:ebgaramond-regular] [features=eb-garamond-normal]
        \definefontsynonym [SerifItalic] [file:ebgaramond-italic]  [features=eb-garamond-normal]
        \definefontsynonym [SerifBold]   [file:ebgaramond-bold]    [features=eb-garamond-normal]
        \definefontsynonym [SerifCaps]   [Serif]                   [features=eb-garamond-smallcaps]
    \stoptypescript

    \starttypescript[ebgaramond]
        \definetypeface [ebgaramond] [rm] [serif] [ebgaramond] [default] [designsize=auto]
        \definetypeface [ebgaramond] [tt] [mono]  [dejavu]     [default]
        \definetypeface [ebgaramond] [mm] [math]  [bonum]      [default]
    \stoptypescript

\stoptypescriptcollection

[-- Attachment #4: designsizes-003.tex --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 591 bytes --]

\loadtypescriptfile[ebgaramond]

\definefontfeature
  [quality]
  [expansion=quality,
   protrusion=quality]

\definefontfeature
  [eb-garamond-normal]
  [eb-garamond-normal,quality]


\definefontfeature
  [eb-garamond-smallcaps]
  [eb-garamond-smallcaps,quality]

\setupbodyfont[ebgaramond,12pt]

\setupcapitals[sc=yes]

\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]

\setupinterlinespace[line=3.2ex]

\setupalign[lesshyphenation,hz,hanging]

\showframe

\starttext

    \dostepwiserecurse {8} {12} {1} {
        \switchtobodyfont[#1pt]
        \input tufte
        \blank
    }

\stoptext

[-- Attachment #5: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --]

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