Page Numbering Hell

Page Numbering Hell

[Bryant Eastham]

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All-

 

A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very
excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could
benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support. But
it has to be real.

 

I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed attempts
to even get a minimal document formatted I have some serious questions
for the list:

 

1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want to
use...

2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like the
look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II? Mark
IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?

3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference manual!!!
I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
just snippets. That doesn't help me.

 

Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be able
to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).

 

I want this document structure:

 

Contents

1.       Chapter                                   1-1

1.1 Section                             1-2

2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1

    2.1 Section                                 2-2

 

Table of contents on page "i".

Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.

Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.

Mark IV, Lua document.

 

I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do this,
the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take someone
who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).

 

-Bryant

 

 

 

 

Panasonic Electric Works Laboratory of America - SLC Lab
4525 So. Wasatch Blvd., Suite 100, 84124
Salt Lake City, UT 84124



T 801.993.7124
F 801.993.7260
beastham@pewla.us.pewg.pansonic.com

Bryant Eastham
Chief Architect



 

 

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Alan BRASLAU]

Dear Bryant,

Your post is slightly exaggerated.
The document structure that you want to produce
appears to be relatively standard. Whereas,
indeed, the learning curve for ConTeXt (as for TeX)
can be somewhat slow, the richness and powerfulness
is well worth the effort.

The documentation for ConTeXt (mkii) is quite rich,
although it did take me some time to get used to
the presentation and style. Some of the syntax
has evolved in mkiv, mostly in an effort of
simplification, but also to allow some powerful
new features. The documentation is (slowly)
being updated, as this is a tremendous effort.
But it is a necessary effort. I believe that
all of us users will appreciate the updated
reference manual when it is completed!

A notable change between mkii and mkiv
is the handling of document structure.
I, too, have had a difficult time with this evolution
of such a fundamental functionality and will
therefore let someone more expert reply to
your request with specific examples on how
to tune the style, notably page numbering;
it should be a simple matter.

Alan

% missing setups to:
% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\chapter{Chapter}
\section{Section}
\chapter{Chapter 2}
\section{Section}
\stopbodymatter

\stoptext

On Wednesday 21 October 2009 08:36:35 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> All-
> 
> A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very
> excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could
> benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support. But
> it has to be real.
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed attempts
> to even get a minimal document formatted I have some serious questions
> for the list:
> 
> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
> trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want to
> use...
> 
> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like the
> look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II? Mark
> IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?
> 
> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference manual!!!
> I mean one that actually *documents the options*.
> 
> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
> just snippets. That doesn't help me.
> 
> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be able
> to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).
> 
> I want this document structure:
> 
> Contents
> 
> 1.       Chapter                                   1-1
> 
> 1.1 Section                             1-2
> 
> 2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1
> 
>     2.1 Section                                 2-2
> 
> 
> Table of contents on page "i".
> Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.
> Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.
> Mark IV, Lua document.
> 
> I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do this,
> the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take someone
> who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).
> 
> -Bryant
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Alan BRASLAU <alan.braslau@cea.fr> wrote:

>
> \starttext
>
> \startfrontmatter
> \completecontent
> \stopfrontmatter
>
> \startbodymatter
> \chapter{Chapter}
> \section{Section}
> \chapter{Chapter 2}
> \section{Section}
> \stopbodymatter
>
> \stoptext
>
>
only slightly different, just to see some pages;
cow.pdf must be in the same folder of  test.tex

%%
%%
%% test.tex
\setupcolors[state=start]
\setupinteraction[state=start]
\starttext
\startfrontmatter
\completecontent
\stopfrontmatter
\startbodymatter
\chapter{Chapter}
\section{Section}
\input tufte
\externalfigure[cow]
\chapter{Chapter 2}
\section{Section}
\input knuth
\stopbodymatter
\stoptext



compile with
$> texexec --pdf test.tex

The switch --pdf is not necessary, but actually I prefear to remember to
myself that I'm doing pdf.

Question x Bryant : how do you change the color of interactive elements ?


-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Bryant Eastham]

Alan-

Thanks for taking time to respond. However, I'm not sure how exaggerated
my post was.

Believe me, I understand learning curves. I have been a LaTeX user (off
and on) for almost two decades (leading to my excitement about ConTeXt,
:-) ). However, in order to learn one either needs documents or mentors.
It helps to have both.

I also understand the complexity that comes with powerful languages. I
have been writing software of various types for almost thirty years. The
move from mkii to mkiv will, I'm sure, be a good thing in the end.

However, I find it interesting that in your response there was not a
single real answer to any of my direct questions, nor a working example
of what you admit should be a "simple matter".

Don't get me wrong! This is not an attack on the group or on you
personally - I really do appreciate the response. I hope that others
will be able to correctly fill in the rest of the "magic sauce" that
makes the document work and answer my other questions. However, I
believe that my original statements, which boil down to "This thing may
be great, but it needs to be documented (or where is it documented?)",
have been strengthened.

Thanks,
-Bryant

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan BRASLAU [mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:14 AM
To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
Cc: Bryant Eastham
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell

Dear Bryant,

Your post is slightly exaggerated.
The document structure that you want to produce
appears to be relatively standard. Whereas,
indeed, the learning curve for ConTeXt (as for TeX)
can be somewhat slow, the richness and powerfulness
is well worth the effort.

The documentation for ConTeXt (mkii) is quite rich,
although it did take me some time to get used to
the presentation and style. Some of the syntax
has evolved in mkiv, mostly in an effort of
simplification, but also to allow some powerful
new features. The documentation is (slowly)
being updated, as this is a tremendous effort.
But it is a necessary effort. I believe that
all of us users will appreciate the updated
reference manual when it is completed!

A notable change between mkii and mkiv
is the handling of document structure.
I, too, have had a difficult time with this evolution
of such a fundamental functionality and will
therefore let someone more expert reply to
your request with specific examples on how
to tune the style, notably page numbering;
it should be a simple matter.

Alan

% missing setups to:
% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\chapter{Chapter}
\section{Section}
\chapter{Chapter 2}
\section{Section}
\stopbodymatter

\stoptext

On Wednesday 21 October 2009 08:36:35 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> All-
> 
> A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very
> excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could
> benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support.
But
> it has to be real.
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed
attempts
> to even get a minimal document formatted I have some serious questions
> for the list:
> 
> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
> trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want
to
> use...
> 
> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like
the
> look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II?
Mark
> IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?
> 
> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference
manual!!!
> I mean one that actually *documents the options*.
> 
> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
> just snippets. That doesn't help me.
> 
> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be
able
> to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).
> 
> I want this document structure:
> 
> Contents
> 
> 1.       Chapter                                   1-1
> 
> 1.1 Section                             1-2
> 
> 2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1
> 
>     2.1 Section                                 2-2
> 
> 
> Table of contents on page "i".
> Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.
> Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.
> Mark IV, Lua document.
> 
> I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do this,
> the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take someone
> who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).
> 
> -Bryant
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Bryant Eastham wrote:

> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
> trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want to
> use...

MKIV is still a moving target. For example, the change is the 
structure code (headings, pagenumbers, lists, etc) started only in April. 
There are still some things that are not done yet. Documentation will only 
make sense once the interface is stable. For structure code, the interface 
is not fixed yet, so the only documentation is the examples in the source 
file. Parts that are stable (fonts, typescripts) are documented in the new 
manual (see wiki). The interface for most other things has not changed, so 
the MKII interface works.

> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like the
> look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II? Mark
> IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?

Use MKII. It is stable and well documented. Unless there is some feature 
of MKIV that you definitely need. MKII had some support for unicode and 
oriental languages.

> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference manual!!!
> I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

See http://www.pragma-ade.com/overview.htm 
Most of MKII options are documented in ConTeXt the manual. Parts of MKIV are documented in mk.pdf

> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
> just snippets. That doesn't help me.

The wiki: http://www.contextgarden.net

> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be able
> to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).

A partial solution (I don't know how to set the separator between chapter 
number and page number)

Following Alan's email:

% missing setups to:
% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
\setupuserpagenumber[way=byblock]
\definestructureconversionset[frontpart:pagenumber][][romannumerals]
\definestructureconversionset[bodypart:pagenumber] [][numbers]
\setupuserpagenumber[numberconversionset=pagenumber]

% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
% I don't know how to set the - between chapter and page number

\setupuserpagenumber
   [way=bychapter,
    prefix=yes,
    prefixset=chapter,
    prefixsegments=2:2,
  ]

% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
% 5. Page number in top margin
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,margin},alternative=doublesided]

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent[criterium=all]
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\dorecurse{4}
{\chapter{Chapter}
\dorecurse{8}
{\section{Section}
  \input knuth \endgraf}}
\stopbodymatter

\stoptext

Aditya
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Wednesday 21 October 2009 16:24:47 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> 
> However, I find it interesting that in your response there was not a
> single real answer to any of my direct questions, nor a working example
> of what you admit should be a "simple matter".

I clearly wrote that I find the new structure code to be a bit
confusing, and invited "experts" to answer your specific questions
(also commented in my framework "example"):
> % missing setups to:
> % 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
> % 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
> % 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
> % 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
It should be simple, but I have not taken the time/not had the need
to look into this. Perhaps someone can easily fill this in
(that is if not put-off by the agressivity of the posting).

> However, I
> believe that my original statements, which boil down to "This thing may
> be great, but it needs to be documented (or where is it documented?)",
> have been strengthened.

Look at http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Main_Page
the paragraph on Documentation, and,
in particular, the revision of the user manual.
I, too, feel the great need for the updated
manual. For this reason, I am trying to join
the effort to bring forward its revision
(to be done in my "spare time").
Writing good, complete documentation is hard!

Alan
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Bryant Eastham]

All:

Alan comments below on my "aggressive" post. I apologize if it was seen
that way. I am serious in my evaluation of ConTeXt, and my questions are
quite serious as well.

I cannot justify the effort in and cost of converting some 35 documents
(many hundreds of pages) into a new format without an evaluation of the
format and related tools.

So, to restate my questions (potentially less aggressively), and in view
of switching our entire technical documentation to ConTeXt:

1. Should I use mkii or mkiv? If mkii, then what should I plan on as
schedule for upgrading?
2. Should I use context or texexec? As I understand, this is the same as
asking whether to use pdftex or luatex. It may also be related to the
mkii/mkiv issue, but I am less sure of that.
3. What *reference* material exists? I do not need a user guide. Right
now it has been Google. However, the solutions most recently mentioned
on the mailing lists seem to dead-end. I am fine with an answer of "see
the source code" if that is really it.

And I would still love a short, working example based on previous
request.

-Bryant

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan BRASLAU [mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:01 AM
To: Bryant Eastham; ntg-context@ntg.nl
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell

On Wednesday 21 October 2009 16:24:47 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> 
> However, I find it interesting that in your response there was not a
> single real answer to any of my direct questions, nor a working
example
> of what you admit should be a "simple matter".

I clearly wrote that I find the new structure code to be a bit
confusing, and invited "experts" to answer your specific questions
(also commented in my framework "example"):
> % missing setups to:
> % 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
> % 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
> % 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
> % 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
It should be simple, but I have not taken the time/not had the need
to look into this. Perhaps someone can easily fill this in
(that is if not put-off by the agressivity of the posting).

> However, I
> believe that my original statements, which boil down to "This thing
may
> be great, but it needs to be documented (or where is it documented?)",
> have been strengthened.

Look at http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Main_Page
the paragraph on Documentation, and,
in particular, the revision of the user manual.
I, too, feel the great need for the updated
manual. For this reason, I am trying to join
the effort to bring forward its revision
(to be done in my "spare time").
Writing good, complete documentation is hard!

Alan
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Wednesday 21 October 2009 18:52:21 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> 
> 1. Should I use mkii or mkiv? If mkii, then what should I plan on as
> schedule for upgrading?

I asked this question recently and was told that it was
probably pretty safe now to use mkiv, "as the developers
use mkiv themselves".

My experience is that mkiv is not totally stable,
but almost so. I try to use it for my production
as much as possible. For the core of the commands,
the two are interchangable and it is simply a question
of using the "context" script or the "texexec" script
(but don't include a
% output=pdftex
line in your source file!)
For specific differences, you can use
\doifmodeelse{mkiv}{ }{ } 

This also answers 2.

> 3. What *reference* material exists? I do not need a user guide. Right
> now it has been Google. However, the solutions most recently mentioned
> on the mailing lists seem to dead-end. I am fine with an answer of "see
> the source code" if that is really it.

Did you look at the "user guide"? It is a reference manual
http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf
The first is a "screen" version, the second a "paper" format.
(and called context-reference or contextref.pdf on the svn)

A rich source is:
http://www.pragma-ade.com/overview.htm
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Since you weren't satisfied with the reply you got, here's another  
attempt to please you:
On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Bryant Eastham wrote:

> All-
>
> A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very  
> excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could  
> benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support.  
> But it has to be real.
>
> I’m sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed  
> attempts to even get a minimal document formatted I have some  
> serious questions for the list:

What do you mean "get even a minimal document formatted"? You're  
complaining that you don't find "current examples that actually work,"  
yet instead of a real minimal example, you post only rants. Give us a  
real example of what you have tried, and someone may be able to help  
you.
>
> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here – after  
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the  
> most trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something  
> I want to use…

No Mkiv isn't real. For two years, we've all been part of this  
elaborate hoax. We pretend we're using a software that doesn't exist.

> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like  
> the look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over  
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II?  
> Mark IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I  
> use?

TeTeX is the odd item in your list. It's a defunct TeX system that  
hasn't been updated in three years or so. You may have meant XeTeX. On  
a serious note: For 95 % of ConTeXt, it doesn't matter what engine you  
use. The high-level code in your document should give identical output  
with pdftext (= mkii), XeTeX, or the new luatex engine (= mkiv). If  
you need Japanese, you will probably want to use XeTeX or luatex. For  
the differences between mkiv and mkii, see http://wiki.contextgarden.net/MkIV_Differences

> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference  
> manual!!! I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

What documentation did you read? cont-eni.pdf? The wiki? Have you  
looked at all the manuals available on http://www.pragma-ade.com/show-man-1.htm 
  ? cont-eni.pdf is still the current documentation; if you want to  
have a brief look at options, I would recommend http://texshow.contextgarden.net/

> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that  
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are  
> just snippets. That doesn’t help me.

What is missing on http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Sample_documents ?  
There are several sample documents.

>
> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be  
> able to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on  
> this).
>
> I want this document structure:
>
> Contents
> 1.       Chapter                                   1-1
> 1.1 Section                             1-2
> 2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1
>     2.1 Section                                 2-2
>
> Table of contents on page “i”.
> Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.
> Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.
> Mark IV, Lua document.
>
> I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do  
> this, the I will (with sadness) move on. I’m sure that it would take  
> someone who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).
>
Then show us a minimal example of one of these hundreds of  
combinations, and somebody will look at it and may have an idea. But I  
doubt that anybody will want to write this for you.

Thomas
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Boštjan Vesnicer]

Alan,

for me it is actually very obvious an easy to understand the situation
about missing documentation. In my opinion there are a couple of
reasons for that:
- The gurus don't have time to write the documentation since they have
more important things to do, i.e. implementing features.
- Documentation (in a form of a manual) is of the most value to the
newbies, but they can't write a manual by themselves about something
they dont't know much about. So they ask for the documentation on the
mailing list, but they eventually find out that the up-to-date
documentation is missing and they start to use other sources of
information (wiki, mailing list, source code etc.). They learn slowly,
but at the end (if they persist long enough) they know enough that
they maybe could write a manual. However, they don't really need the
manual any more so they decide not to write one. (Paradoxical
situation, I know.)
- The key is in the motivation. If you want better documentation, you
have to figure out how to convince the gurus to write one.

Best regards,
Bostjan


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Bryant Eastham
<beastham@pewla.us.pewg.panasonic.com> wrote:
> Alan-
>
> Thanks for taking time to respond. However, I'm not sure how exaggerated
> my post was.
>
> Believe me, I understand learning curves. I have been a LaTeX user (off
> and on) for almost two decades (leading to my excitement about ConTeXt,
> :-) ). However, in order to learn one either needs documents or mentors.
> It helps to have both.
>
> I also understand the complexity that comes with powerful languages. I
> have been writing software of various types for almost thirty years. The
> move from mkii to mkiv will, I'm sure, be a good thing in the end.
>
> However, I find it interesting that in your response there was not a
> single real answer to any of my direct questions, nor a working example
> of what you admit should be a "simple matter".
>
> Don't get me wrong! This is not an attack on the group or on you
> personally - I really do appreciate the response. I hope that others
> will be able to correctly fill in the rest of the "magic sauce" that
> makes the document work and answer my other questions. However, I
> believe that my original statements, which boil down to "This thing may
> be great, but it needs to be documented (or where is it documented?)",
> have been strengthened.
>
> Thanks,
> -Bryant
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan BRASLAU [mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:14 AM
> To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: Bryant Eastham
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell
>
> Dear Bryant,
>
> Your post is slightly exaggerated.
> The document structure that you want to produce
> appears to be relatively standard. Whereas,
> indeed, the learning curve for ConTeXt (as for TeX)
> can be somewhat slow, the richness and powerfulness
> is well worth the effort.
>
> The documentation for ConTeXt (mkii) is quite rich,
> although it did take me some time to get used to
> the presentation and style. Some of the syntax
> has evolved in mkiv, mostly in an effort of
> simplification, but also to allow some powerful
> new features. The documentation is (slowly)
> being updated, as this is a tremendous effort.
> But it is a necessary effort. I believe that
> all of us users will appreciate the updated
> reference manual when it is completed!
>
> A notable change between mkii and mkiv
> is the handling of document structure.
> I, too, have had a difficult time with this evolution
> of such a fundamental functionality and will
> therefore let someone more expert reply to
> your request with specific examples on how
> to tune the style, notably page numbering;
> it should be a simple matter.
>
> Alan
>
> % missing setups to:
> % 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
> % 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
> % 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
> % 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
>
> \starttext
>
> \startfrontmatter
> \completecontent
> \stopfrontmatter
>
> \startbodymatter
> \chapter{Chapter}
> \section{Section}
> \chapter{Chapter 2}
> \section{Section}
> \stopbodymatter
>
> \stoptext
>
> On Wednesday 21 October 2009 08:36:35 Bryant Eastham wrote:
>> All-
>>
>> A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very
>> excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could
>> benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support.
> But
>> it has to be real.
>>
>> I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed
> attempts
>> to even get a minimal document formatted I have some serious questions
>> for the list:
>>
>> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
>> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
>> trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want
> to
>> use...
>>
>> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like
> the
>> look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
>> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II?
> Mark
>> IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?
>>
>> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference
> manual!!!
>> I mean one that actually *documents the options*.
>>
>> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
>> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
>> just snippets. That doesn't help me.
>>
>> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be
> able
>> to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).
>>
>> I want this document structure:
>>
>> Contents
>>
>> 1.       Chapter                                   1-1
>>
>> 1.1 Section                             1-2
>>
>> 2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1
>>
>>     2.1 Section                                 2-2
>>
>>
>> Table of contents on page "i".
>> Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.
>> Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.
>> Mark IV, Lua document.
>>
>> I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do this,
>> the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take someone
>> who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).
>>
>> -Bryant
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,


Bryant Eastham wrote:
> 
> 1. Should I use mkii or mkiv? If mkii, then what should I plan on as
> schedule for upgrading?
> 2. Should I use context or texexec? As I understand, this is the same as
> asking whether to use pdftex or luatex. It may also be related to the
> mkii/mkiv issue, but I am less sure of that.

The (new) version of context that runs on luatex is called mkiv, the
(traditional) version that runs on pdftex as well as xetex is called
mkii.

There are two shell commands: texexec and context. Both of these
can run either mkii (pdftex or xetex) or mkiv (luatex), but they
have different defaults: 'texexec' defaults to mkii and 'context'
defaults to mkiv.

There are not a lot of core differences between mkii and mkiv, but
there are a few. The big thing on the user side is that mkiv is
totally based on Unicode and UTF-8, and knows how to do OpenType font
processing.

It follows that the commands that deal with input regimes and font
encodings are either stubs or missing, there is a slightly longer
list of differences here:

  http://wiki.contextgarden.net/MkIV_Differences

I hope that answers your question.

> 3. What *reference* material exists? I do not need a user guide. Right
> now it has been Google. However, the solutions most recently mentioned
> on the mailing lists seem to dead-end. I am fine with an answer of "see
> the source code" if that is really it.

The closest thing to a short reference is the command index
(texshow-web) at contextgarden:

  http://texshow.contextgarden.net/

However, this is a community effort with a slight lack of actual
community.

The cont-en[pi].pdf is Hans' context manual, which was originally
written in the nineties and is now slightly out of date.

The foundry.supelec.fr project (contextref/context-reference) is a
community attempt to update that manual.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> The foundry.supelec.fr project (contextref/context-reference) is a
> community attempt to update that manual.

Also
http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/

but more as testbed for mkiv, and they are rebuilded by me (on my
laptop at home) asap
everytime  Hans says "new beta" on this mailing list .

On long term, I hope I will able to make modules for mkii.

-- 
luigi
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Bryant Eastham wrote:

> And I would still love a short, working example based on previous
> request.

It seems that my previous reply was eaten by the server downtime. Here it 
is again, completing the missing step suggested by Alan.

% missing setups to:
% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
\setupuserpagenumber[way=byblock]
\definestructureconversionset[frontpart:pagenumber][][romannumerals]
\definestructureconversionset[bodypart:pagenumber] [][numbers]
\setupuserpagenumber[numberconversionset=pagenumber]

% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
\setupuserpagenumber
   [way=bychapter,
    prefix=yes,
    prefixset=chapter,
    prefixsegments=2:2, % so that numbers come correctly in TOC
    prefixconnector=-,
  ]

% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
% 5. Page number in top margin
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,margin},alternative=doublesided]

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent[criterium=all]
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\dorecurse{4}
{\chapter{Chapter}
\dorecurse{8}
{\section{Section}
  \input knuth \endgraf}}
\stopbodymatter

\stoptext

Aditya
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[luigi scarso]

http://randomdeterminism.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/creating-a-style-file-in-context/

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Bryant Eastham
<beastham@pewla.us.pewg.panasonic.com> wrote:
> All:
>
> Alan comments below on my "aggressive" post. I apologize if it was seen
> that way. I am serious in my evaluation of ConTeXt, and my questions are
> quite serious as well.
Yes ,we understand it.
> I cannot justify the effort in and cost of converting some 35 documents
> (many hundreds of pages) into a new format without an evaluation of the
> format and related tools.
35 documents of 1000 pages each one
(I mean 35000 pages)
is not a impressive volume.
The problems is converting from what-to-what, why, and how
For serious work you  should have  a full Adobe suite,
at least to minimize "political" problems  with your boss and customers.
And I raccomand mkii because it's stable -- but keep an eye on mkiv
because is the "future today". So can also happen that mkiv is waht
you need *now* .

> I am fine with an answer of "see
> the source code" if that is really it.
TeX is a programming language, and ConTeXt too.
Programming is a difficult task, and typographic programming is a
difficult task
of programming.
If you are fine with reading the source, it's really ok that you start
to read the source now
because there are many and many examples.
(if so, of course you should be able to make a short and working
example by yourself too,
because wiki is full of smal working examples).




-- 
luigi
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Bryant Eastham]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7056 bytes --]

Thomas, all:
 
It appears that not all of the messages have been delivered in a timely manner - I just received quite a few. I suppose that is why you reference the reply I got (or didn't until just now). FYI, it appears to me that there are major issues with the ntg.nl domain name server - it sometimes seems to go non-responsive. I can fix my local machine for web access, but I cannot change my mailer.
 
As I have already written, sorry for the caustic approach. I obviously have offended you, and apologize.
 
Most of your points are well taken. Yes, I had looked at all the examples that I could find, I had checked the many references, and could not find documentation on most of the routines that current postings seem to indicate should be used. With the further pointers I have received I will try again, and post my results.
 
As for my "real" comment, snide question begs snide response. I accept that. However, keep in mind that "real" to me doesn't mean "cool", or "full of features", or "better", but rather means that it will work, day in and day out, in a commercial environment. It means that it is tough, not brittle. It means that I can train people to use it, and then have them use it reliably. My comment is borne from the little that I can read about current status, my lack of ability to find a roadmap or schedule, and the fact that over the course of three solid days of probing, I have found several issues. It is not meant to diminish the groups efforts, their goals, or the current status - for all I know (and have been able to find) the group is small, has too much to do, and acknowledges that there is a long way to go! I don't know (didn't know when I asked), and couldn't find any statements one way or the other in my searching. In particular, it has nothing to do with the amount of effort or time devoted to the project. I will be the first to acknowledge that I am a leech, benefiting (at this point) from the groups efforts while not having provided anything in return.
 
Judging by other responses, the jury is out on "real" (at least of mkiv). I will continue to evaluate. And, my 35 documents, hundreds of pages was not meant to be multiplied! I have under 1,000 pages total.
 
Sorry for my typo (TeTeX).
 
Thanks to others for their responses. I will try them out tomorrow, and will be sure to collect all my hundreds of attempts for the amusement of the group - maybe in hopes of atoning for my "rant". :-)
 
-Bryant
 

________________________________

From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl on behalf of Thomas A. Schmitz
Sent: Wed 10/21/2009 2:57 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell



Since you weren't satisfied with the reply you got, here's another 
attempt to please you:
On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Bryant Eastham wrote:

> All-
>
> A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very 
> excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could 
> benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support. 
> But it has to be real.
>
> I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed 
> attempts to even get a minimal document formatted I have some 
> serious questions for the list:

What do you mean "get even a minimal document formatted"? You're 
complaining that you don't find "current examples that actually work," 
yet instead of a real minimal example, you post only rants. Give us a 
real example of what you have tried, and someone may be able to help 
you.
>
> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after 
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the 
> most trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something 
> I want to use...

No Mkiv isn't real. For two years, we've all been part of this 
elaborate hoax. We pretend we're using a software that doesn't exist.

> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like 
> the look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over 
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II? 
> Mark IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I 
> use?

TeTeX is the odd item in your list. It's a defunct TeX system that 
hasn't been updated in three years or so. You may have meant XeTeX. On 
a serious note: For 95 % of ConTeXt, it doesn't matter what engine you 
use. The high-level code in your document should give identical output 
with pdftext (= mkii), XeTeX, or the new luatex engine (= mkiv). If 
you need Japanese, you will probably want to use XeTeX or luatex. For 
the differences between mkiv and mkii, see http://wiki.contextgarden.net/MkIV_Differences

> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference 
> manual!!! I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

What documentation did you read? cont-eni.pdf? The wiki? Have you 
looked at all the manuals available on http://www.pragma-ade.com/show-man-1.htm
  ? cont-eni.pdf is still the current documentation; if you want to 
have a brief look at options, I would recommend http://texshow.contextgarden.net/

> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that 
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are 
> just snippets. That doesn't help me.

What is missing on http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Sample_documents ? 
There are several sample documents.

>
> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be 
> able to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on 
> this).
>
> I want this document structure:
>
> Contents
> 1.       Chapter                                   1-1
> 1.1 Section                             1-2
> 2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1
>     2.1 Section                                 2-2
>
> Table of contents on page "i".
> Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.
> Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.
> Mark IV, Lua document.
>
> I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do 
> this, the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take 
> someone who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).
>
Then show us a minimal example of one of these hundreds of 
combinations, and somebody will look at it and may have an idea. But I 
doubt that anybody will want to write this for you.

Thomas
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bryant Eastham
<beastham@pewla.us.pewg.panasonic.com> wrote:
> Thomas, all:
>
> It appears that not all of the messages have been delivered in a timely manner - I just received quite a few. I suppose that is why you reference the reply I got (or didn't until just now). FYI, it appears to me that there are major issues with the ntg.nl domain name server - it sometimes seems to go non-responsive. I can fix my local machine for web access, but I cannot change my mailer.
>
> As I have already written, sorry for the caustic approach. I obviously have offended you, and apologize.
>
> Most of your points are well taken. Yes, I had looked at all the examples that I could find, I had checked the many references, and could not find documentation on most of the routines that current postings seem to indicate should be used. With the further pointers I have received I will try again, and post my results.
>
> As for my "real" comment, snide question begs snide response. I accept that. However, keep in mind that "real" to me >doesn't mean "cool", or "full of features", or "better", but rather means that it will work, day in and day out, in a >commercial environment.
by now 5 years on production with ConTeXt . I think Pragma is on
production from 20 years.

>
> Judging by other responses, the jury is out on "real" (at least of mkiv).
Two projects running with mkiv.

> I will continue to evaluate. And, my 35 documents, hundreds of pages was not meant to be multiplied! I have under >1,000 pages total.
$>pdfinfo pdftex.pdf
:
Pages:          812
:
1000 pages is not a big number even for a single doc.
The problems today are opentype, colours, multilingual, multi channel
ouput, automatic workflow.
There are not so many tools that are programmable as ConTeXt (anyway,
you can always buy expensive solutions).

>
> Thanks to others for their responses. I will try them out tomorrow, and will be sure to collect all my hundreds of attempts

Tests -- that's what we need.
-- 
luigi
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Friday 23 October 2009 10:30:09 Bryant Eastham wrote:
> Yes, I had looked at all the examples that I could find, I had checked the
>  many references, and could not find documentation on most of the routines
>  that current postings seem to indicate should be used. With the further
>  pointers I have received I will try again, and post my results.

As has been clearly pointed out by this exchange:
- ConTeXt MKII is very stable and is pretty well documented.
- ConTeXt MKIV is a working system, but is not quite as stable.
It is under active development, and this mailing list is
principally active concerning this development. It is therefore
quite appropriate that current postings turn around features
that are not (yet) as well documented as stable MKII.
So you should not be surprised to find that the use of "cutting edge"
technology gives many exciting new functionality, but one must be willing
to put up with some rough edges.

This is why, for example, the Debian project has very appropriately
named its releases "stable", "testing" and "unstable" (as well as
"experimental"). Unstable sometimes breaks, but usually this lasts
only a couple of hours (occasionally a couple of days for less
important problems).

Alan

P.S. I just spent several hours using Microsoft Word
to edit a bunch of administrative documents. The task
would have taken 10 minutes or so using ConTeXt and
my usual tools (there were many repetitive edits).
This was a *horrible* experience and I simply cannot
fathom how one can be satisfied with such a work tool!
(Here, I had no choice.)
___________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Bryant Eastham]

Aditya, Luigi, others-

Thank you for your responses. I appreciate the candid answers, and the
time you took to provide examples.

Regarding Aditya's example, I do not get any errors, running LuaTeX,
MKIV, beta-0.43.0-2009091520.

However, I also do not get romannumerals in the frontpart, and
pagenumbers do not reset to 1 at the beginning of each section.

The magic command appears to be "definestructureconversionset", which is
not documented that I can see on http://texshow.contextgarden.net/. A
search of the wiki results in a single match, which is not a complete
example. Google led me to many snippets and emails, mostly
non-functional. This was leading me down the same rabbit hole that I was
going into before.

Given other's responses, I think to stick with MKII for now. I will do
as some have suggested, and keep my eye on MKIV while it stops "moving".

In particular, thanks to Taco for his concise summary of the differences
between texexec and context (and quick fix of my reported bug). Yes, it
did answer my question.

-Bryant

-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On
Behalf Of Aditya Mahajan
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:49 AM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Bryant Eastham wrote:

> 1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
> spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
> trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want
to
> use...

MKIV is still a moving target. For example, the change is the 
structure code (headings, pagenumbers, lists, etc) started only in
April. 
There are still some things that are not done yet. Documentation will
only 
make sense once the interface is stable. For structure code, the
interface 
is not fixed yet, so the only documentation is the examples in the
source 
file. Parts that are stable (fonts, typescripts) are documented in the
new 
manual (see wiki). The interface for most other things has not changed,
so 
the MKII interface works.

> 2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like
the
> look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
> documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II?
Mark
> IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?

Use MKII. It is stable and well documented. Unless there is some feature

of MKIV that you definitely need. MKII had some support for unicode and 
oriental languages.

> 3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference
manual!!!
> I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

See http://www.pragma-ade.com/overview.htm 
Most of MKII options are documented in ConTeXt the manual. Parts of MKIV
are documented in mk.pdf

> 4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
> actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
> just snippets. That doesn't help me.

The wiki: http://www.contextgarden.net

> Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be
able
> to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).

A partial solution (I don't know how to set the separator between
chapter 
number and page number)

Following Alan's email:

% missing setups to:
% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
\setupuserpagenumber[way=byblock]
\definestructureconversionset[frontpart:pagenumber][][romannumerals]
\definestructureconversionset[bodypart:pagenumber] [][numbers]
\setupuserpagenumber[numberconversionset=pagenumber]

% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
% I don't know how to set the - between chapter and page number

\setupuserpagenumber
   [way=bychapter,
    prefix=yes,
    prefixset=chapter,
    prefixsegments=2:2,
  ]

% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
% 5. Page number in top margin
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,margin},alternative=doublesided]

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent[criterium=all]
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\dorecurse{4}
{\chapter{Chapter}
\dorecurse{8}
{\section{Section}
  \input knuth \endgraf}}
\stopbodymatter

\stoptext

Aditya
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Re: Page Numbering Hell (SOLVED)

[Bryant Eastham]

[-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5053 bytes --]

All-

 

I have attached a heavily commented MKII example that implements the
structure that I want. The notes identify several (IMHO) weak spots in
documentation, especially some consistency issues.

 

In order to implement this (some said "simple") format, I used:

*         http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf (the
manual)

*         
http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/ntg-context@ntg.nl/9815615.html

*         http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Biochemistry_textbook

*         http://texshow.contextgarden.net

*         
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Titles#Truly_empty_pagebreak_before_chapte
rs

 

I'm fine with that. For those (most, I imagine) who don't want to wade
through the notes, here is a summary of the most (again, IMHO) issues:

*         startsectionblockenvironment does not appear documented, and
appears to be critical for this style

*         setuppagenumbering documentation is hard to follow for options
'by\em{section}' and '\em{section}number'

o   The manual uses inconsistent italics

o   The texshow page doesn't use italics where it should

*         setupcombinedlist (through setuplist) has the same
inconsistent use of italics.

*         setuphead is not documented completely (no reference to
special 'page' formats)

*         definepagebreak not documented

 

Also, the solution for 'truly empty pagebreak before chapters' does not
appear to work for the last chapter in the document.

 

I would be more than happy to contribute to the texshow documentation
and wiki, assuming that I would be given an account... J

 

The list appears to be dead again, so I hope this makes it through.

 

Thanks,

-Bryant

 

From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On
Behalf Of Bryant Eastham
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:37 AM
To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
Subject: [NTG-context] Page Numbering Hell

 

All-

 

A few days ago when I first stumbled on ConTeXt I was very, very
excited. I have some 500 pages of technical documentation that could
benefit from this, particularly since I need Japanese font support. But
it has to be real.

 

I'm sorry if this sounds caustic, but after 12 hours of failed attempts
to even get a minimal document formatted I have some serious questions
for the list:

 

1.       Is Mark IV real? I am only somewhat joking here - after
spending hours searching for reasonable documentation on even the most
trivial options, I am left wondering whether this is something I want to
use...

2.       ConTeXt looks great. But what is current? Seriously, I like the
look and the support (particularly Unicode). But going over
documentation I cannot make heads or tails of what to do. Mark II? Mark
IV? TeTeX? LuaTeX? If I really want to use this, what should I use?

3.       Having answered #2, where in the world is a reference manual!!!
I mean one that actually *documents the options*.

4.       Having answered #3, are there any current examples that
actually work? The snippets from the mailing are great, but they are
just snippets. That doesn't help me.

 

Now, to resolve my immediate issue, and just because I will not be able
to sleep well until I figure this out (yes, I am fixated on this).

 

I want this document structure:

 

Contents

1.       Chapter                                   1-1

1.1 Section                             1-2

2.   Chapter 2                                  2-1

    2.1 Section                                 2-2

 

Table of contents on page "i".

Even/odd, each chapter starts on right page.

Page number (as in 2-2) in top margin.

Mark IV, Lua document.

 

I have tried hundreds of different combinations. If it cannot do this,
the I will (with sadness) move on. I'm sure that it would take someone
who understands this about 5 minutes to write (if that).

 

-Bryant

 

 

 

 

Panasonic Electric Works Laboratory of America - SLC Lab
4525 So. Wasatch Blvd., Suite 100, 84124
Salt Lake City, UT 84124



T 801.993.7124
F 801.993.7260
beastham@pewla.us.pewg.pansonic.com

Bryant Eastham
Chief Architect

 

 

***CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE***: This e-mail and any attachments may
contain information which is confidential, proprietary, trade secret,
privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is the
property of Panasonic Electric Works Laboratory of America, Inc., and is
solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible or
delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient
of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain copy or
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Counsel at generalcounsel@us.pewg.panasonic.com
<mailto:generalcounsel@us.pewg.panasonic.com>  immediately by return
e-mail and delete it from your computer.

 


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% Paper dimensions (http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf, 3.2)
\setuppapersize[A4][A4] % defaults, likely redundant

% Page layout/margins, doublesided, header/footer
% (http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf, 3.3)
\setuplayout[
  backspace=1in,
  leftmargin=.5in,
  leftmargindistance=0in,
  width=fit,
  rightmargindistance=0in,
  rightmargin=.5in,
  cutspace=.5in,
  topspace=.5in,
  header=.2in,
  height=fit,
  footer=.2in,
  bottomspace=.5in,
  ]
\setupheadertexts [alfa][beta][gamma][delta]
\setuppagenumbering[alternative=doublesided]

% Enable hyperlinking (wiki)
\setupinteraction[state=start]


% The use of startsectionblockenvironment appears critical, yet not documented.
% The following links were helpful, the rest took guessing.
% http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/ntg-context@ntg.nl/9815615.html
% http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Biochemistry_textbook
\startsectionblockenvironment[frontpart]
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,right}]
\setuppagenumbering[conversion=romannumerals]
\stopsectionblockenvironment

\startsectionblockenvironment[bodypart]
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,right}]
% (http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf, page 76)
% This was *not obvious*. The fact that 'bytext' and 'bypart' are listed, and
% that 'by\em{section}' implies them both *in addition* to other things like
% chapter took a bit undertand.
\setuppagenumbering[way=bychapter]
% (http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf, page 76)
% This was also *not obvious*. I believe it is an error to list it as
% \em{sectionnumber}. Rather, for consistency it should be \em{section}number.
% However, the description on http://texshow.contextgarden.net clarifies it.
\setuppagenumbering[chapternumber=yes]
\stopsectionblockenvironment

%\startsectionblockenvironment[backpart]
%\setuppagenumbering[location=]
%\setupheadertexts[][][][]
%\stopsectionblockenvironment

%\startsectionblockenvironment[appendix]
%\setuppagenumbering[location=]
%\setupheadertexts[][][][]
%\stopsectionblockenvironment

%\setupsectionblock[backpart][page=no]
%\setupsectionblock[appendix][page=no]

% This was not clear. http://texshow.contextgarden.net does not have italics,
% and so 'chapternumber' isn't obvious as an option. The same issue mentioned
% above with \em{sectionnumber} exists on 
% (http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-enp.pdf, page 150)
\setupcombinedlist[content][chapternumber=yes,interaction=all]

% Getting rid of the 'blank' but 'headered' pages at the end of sections was
% not obvious. The (partial) answer is at
% http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/ntg-context@ntg.nl/4154001.html, once
% the typo is fixed (Mychapterpagebreak vs. mychapterpagebreak). There is also
% http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Titles#Truly_empty_pagebreak_before_chapters, which
% fixes the typo. However, 'definepagebreak' is not documented. Neither is the
% particular use of 'setuphead'.
% Also note that this does not appear to work for the last chapter (which still
% gets a non-empty last page with no text. 
\definepagebreak 
   [mychapterpagebreak] 
   [yes,header,right] 

\setuphead 
  [chapter] 
  [page=mychapterpagebreak] 


% DEBUGGING
\showframe

\starttext

\startfrontmatter
\completecontent[criterium=all]
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
\dorecurse{4}
{\chapter{Chapter}
\dorecurse{12}
{\section{Section}
  \input knuth \endgraf}}
\stopbodymatter

% This is required to avoid a strange page number on the last page. I remember
% a mail posting on this, but cannot find the reference now.
\page[empty]
\stoptext

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Bryant Eastham wrote:
>
>> And I would still love a short, working example based on previous
>> request.
>
> It seems that my previous reply was eaten by the server downtime. Here it is 
> again, completing the missing step suggested by Alan.
>
> % missing setups to:
> % 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
> \setupuserpagenumber[way=byblock]
> \definestructureconversionset[frontpart:pagenumber][][romannumerals]
> \definestructureconversionset[bodypart:pagenumber] [][numbers]
> \setupuserpagenumber[numberconversionset=pagenumber]
>
> % 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
> % 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
> \setupuserpagenumber
>  [way=bychapter,
>   prefix=yes,
>   prefixset=chapter,
>   prefixsegments=2:2, % so that numbers come correctly in TOC
>   prefixconnector=-,
> ]
>
> % 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
> % 5. Page number in top margin
> \setuppagenumbering[location={header,margin},alternative=doublesided]

The above solution was for MkIV. For completeness, this is how you will do 
the same with MkII. I don't know how to get the page numbers correct in 
the TOC in this case.

% 1. frontmatter pagenumbering conversion=romannumerals
\startsectionblockenvironment[frontpart]
   \setuppagenumbering[conversion=romannumerals]
\stopsectionblockenvironment

% 2. bodymatter pagenumbering "chapter-page"
% 3. reset pagenumber for each chapter
\startsectionblockenvironment[bodypart]
   \setuppagenumber[number=1]
   \setuppagenumbering[way=bychapter, chapternumber=yes]
\stopsectionblockenvironment


% 4. add blank pages if necessary to start chapters on odd pages.
% 5. Page number in top margin
\setuppagenumbering[location={header,margin},alternative=doublesided]

Aditya
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Re: Spam:*****, Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Hans Hagen]

Bryant Eastham wrote:

[in addition to what others have said]

> 1. Should I use mkii or mkiv? If mkii, then what should I plan on as
> schedule for upgrading?

if you plan to use context for a long time and want to be save with 
respect to fonts and encodings, i'd gamble on mkiv (here we use mkiv for 
everything but also run mkiv in projects that started year sago and have 
to run fo rmay years to come); in general it's no big deal to switch 
from mkii to mkiv later

> 2. Should I use context or texexec? As I understand, this is the same as
> asking whether to use pdftex or luatex. It may also be related to the
> mkii/mkiv issue, but I am less sure of that.

context is a lua script and mkiv needs that one; texexec targets at 
mkii; in principle you can use contet to run mkii as well, as it will 
just call texexec; i have no time now (nor much reason) to convert the 
bit of code that mkii needs to lua, otherwise texexec could be dropped

concerning the 35 docs with 100's of pages ... the more docs and pages, 
the more time you can spend on a proper style setup (and investigation); 
anyhow, we use mkiv for small docs (manuals) as well as for handling 
large collections for customers (tens of thousands of different pages, 
spread over hundreds of documents, to be assembled in any combination or 
subset) and so far it works out ok, even if it's beta

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Spam:*****, RE: Page Numbering Hell

[Hans Hagen]

Bryant Eastham wrote:

> Thanks to others for their responses. I will try them out tomorrow, and 
> will be sure to collect all my hundreds of attempts for the amusement of 
> the group - maybe in hopes of atoning for my "rant". :-)

one of the problems of tex is that (potential) users often first seen 
the end products and working backwards from what one sees of not easy 
with tex based systems

another aspect is that it's easy to get some results but more complex 
demands need more complex solutions (hard coding each solution means 
even more need for manuals and finally not being able to locate an 
already given solution)

concerning the fact that you have to make a decision for a longer span 
of time, it's good to know that tex is normally quite stable and has 
survived other systems quite well, and that's unlikely to change; and we 
have no intentions to quit development (after all, development of mkiv 
is taking quite some of our resourceses and will do so for the next 
couple of years)

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Hans Hagen]

Boštjan Vesnicer wrote:

> for me it is actually very obvious an easy to understand the situation
> about missing documentation. In my opinion there are a couple of
> reasons for that:
> - The gurus don't have time to write the documentation since they have
> more important things to do, i.e. implementing features.

indeed; and since we also have to make a living, sometimes demands of 
projects get priority

> - Documentation (in a form of a manual) is of the most value to the
> newbies, but they can't write a manual by themselves about something
> they dont't know much about. So they ask for the documentation on the
> mailing list, but they eventually find out that the up-to-date
> documentation is missing and they start to use other sources of
> information (wiki, mailing list, source code etc.). They learn slowly,
> but at the end (if they persist long enough) they know enough that
> they maybe could write a manual. However, they don't really need the
> manual any more so they decide not to write one. (Paradoxical
> situation, I know.)

good point ... also, writing a manual helps oncovering inconsistencies; 
a variant on manuals is writing articles (e.f. for tex user group 
magazines)

> - The key is in the motivation. If you want better documentation, you
> have to figure out how to convince the gurus to write one.

Hans

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Re: Page Numbering Hell

[Thomas Floeren]

Aditya Mahajan <> wrote on Friday, October 23, 2009 10:41 PM:

> 
> The above solution was for MkIV. For completeness, this is how you
> will do 
> the same with MkII. I don't know how to get the page numbers correct
> in 
> the TOC in this case.
> 

I get correct MkII pagenumbers with this:

%% MkII:
\starttext
\setuppagenumbering[conversion=romannumerals] 
\startfrontmatter
\completecontent
\stopfrontmatter
\setuppagenumber[number=1] 
\setuppagenumbering[conversion=numbers] 
\startbodymatter
\chapter{Chapter}
\section{Section}
\input tufte
\externalfigure[cow]
\chapter{Chapter 2}
\section{Section}
\input knuth
\stopbodymatter
\stoptext


Thomas

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