[NTG-context] streams reversed?

[NTG-context] streams reversed?

[jbf]

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I am making some progress with a bilingual text using the streams 
mechanism suggested by Wolfgang: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns, 
but see below.

The aim has been to have en and vi on facing pages (en left, vi right).

It works correctly for the Foreword in two languages (en, vi) in 
frontmatter.

When I come to bodymatter and Chapter 1, again it works, except that the 
positions of the languages are reversed, so I end up with vi on the left 
and en on the right. By Chapter 2 we are back to the correct position 
once more (en left and vi right).

I want to know why this is happening, and if I can prevent it happening.

I am using the code you can see below, except that instead of 
\startoutputstream[one] and \startoutputstream[two] etc.  I am using 
[en-front][vi-front], and then in bodymatter [en-chap1][vi-chap1] etc. 
etc. with the relevant repetitions of these identifiers where needed. I 
assume that to get a degree of synchronization I need to use this 
approach for each set of chapters. But I cannot understand why the 
languages alternate their starting page positions each chapter.

There are other issues I have to solve, but first of all I wish to 
resolve this one.

Julian


The original (Wolfgang) code is as follows:

\starttext

\startoutputstream[one]
    \startcolor[red]
    \dorecurse{10}{\input  knuth\par}
    \stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\startoutputstream[two]
    \startcolor[green]
    \dorecurse{10}{\input  zapf\par}
    \stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\synchronizestreams[one,two]

\setbox\scratchboxone\outputstreambox[one]
\setbox\scratchboxtwo\outputstreambox[two]

\doloop
  {\ifvoid\scratchboxone
     \exitloop
   \else
     \setbox\scratchboxfour\vsplit\scratchboxone  to\textheight
     \vbox  to\vsize{\box\scratchboxfour\vss}%
     \setbox\scratchboxfive\vsplit\scratchboxtwo  to\textheight
     \vbox  to\vsize{\box\scratchboxfive\vss}%
   \fi}

\stoptext

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[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[Bruce Horrocks]

On 13 Sep 2023, at 07:47, jbf <roma83537@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> When I come to bodymatter and Chapter 1, again it works, except that the positions of the languages are reversed, so I end up with vi on the left and en on the right. By Chapter 2 we are back to the correct position once more (en left and vi right).
> I want to know why this is happening, and if I can prevent it happening.


I've modified the sample code you got from Wolfgang to include chapter headings and it all looks fine to me[1] - the red text is all on the right hand side and the greeen text is all on the left. If this doesn't help and you still have problems then you'll need to post a sample that actually shows the problem. I'm using ConTeXt  ver: 2023.09.04 19:15.

\starttext

\startoutputstream[one]
   \startcolor[red]
   \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream One}
     \dorecurse{10}{\input knuth\par}
     }
   \stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\startoutputstream[two]
   \startcolor[green]
   \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream Two}
     \dorecurse{10}{\input zapf\par}
     }
   \stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\synchronizestreams[one,two]

\setbox\scratchboxone\outputstreambox[one]
\setbox\scratchboxtwo\outputstreambox[two]

\doloop
 {\ifvoid\scratchboxone
    \exitloop
  \else
    \setbox\scratchboxfour\vsplit\scratchboxone to \textheight
    \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfour\vss}%
    \setbox\scratchboxfive\vsplit\scratchboxtwo to \textheight
    \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfive\vss}%
  \fi}

\stoptext


[1] Apart from unnecessary blank pages at the beginning but that's a different problem so I'm not addressing that for now.

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK


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[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[jbf]

Bruce, that was kind of you to reply. I think we both know that the 
streams mechanism, while 'workable' for the most part, is still in need 
of refinement.

It is quite possible that what is causing my problem has less to do with 
'streams' per se, and more to do with the use of this mechanism in a 
'real book' using frontmatter, bodymatter etc. etc.

Since it would be too long and complicated an MWE to place here in the 
list to demonstrate my problem, I will send you the file separately so 
you can see the issue: effectively, the streams have worked for 
frontmatter (Foreword), but when I get to Chapter 1 in bodymatter, they 
are reversed. You will see that. I can't work out why, but you might be 
able to see what is causing that.

And of course, I have two other problems to work out before I could use 
this in a real production scenario: there is the one you have already 
alluded to of extra pages occasionally beforehand (hopefully easily 
solvable) but I can see another problem when the text is a lengthy 
one... and this is the result of synchronization: when one language (vi) 
takes up more space than the other (en), we get an awkward break at the 
end of the chapter in en, so that the last line can 'catch up' with the 
last paragraph (in vi). Maybe this one will be harder to solve!

Julian

On 14/9/23 20:14, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2023, at 07:47, jbf <roma83537@gmail.com> wrote:
>> When I come to bodymatter and Chapter 1, again it works, except that the positions of the languages are reversed, so I end up with vi on the left and en on the right. By Chapter 2 we are back to the correct position once more (en left and vi right).
>> I want to know why this is happening, and if I can prevent it happening.
>
> I've modified the sample code you got from Wolfgang to include chapter headings and it all looks fine to me[1] - the red text is all on the right hand side and the greeen text is all on the left. If this doesn't help and you still have problems then you'll need to post a sample that actually shows the problem. I'm using ConTeXt  ver: 2023.09.04 19:15.
>
> \starttext
>
> \startoutputstream[one]
>     \startcolor[red]
>     \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream One}
>       \dorecurse{10}{\input knuth\par}
>       }
>     \stopcolor
> \stopoutputstream
>
> \startoutputstream[two]
>     \startcolor[green]
>     \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream Two}
>       \dorecurse{10}{\input zapf\par}
>       }
>     \stopcolor
> \stopoutputstream
>
> \synchronizestreams[one,two]
>
> \setbox\scratchboxone\outputstreambox[one]
> \setbox\scratchboxtwo\outputstreambox[two]
>
> \doloop
>   {\ifvoid\scratchboxone
>      \exitloop
>    \else
>      \setbox\scratchboxfour\vsplit\scratchboxone to \textheight
>      \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfour\vss}%
>      \setbox\scratchboxfive\vsplit\scratchboxtwo to \textheight
>      \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfive\vss}%
>    \fi}
>
> \stoptext
>
>
> [1] Apart from unnecessary blank pages at the beginning but that's a different problem so I'm not addressing that for now.
>
> —
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[Hamid,Idris]

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Hi Julian,

Am also interested in this matter (and played a bit with the code you provided); one suspects that others are as well.

Based on past experience, can affirm that it's sometimes time-consuming, even a pain, to produce an MWE to reproduce the relevant behavior. But it would be well worth the effort for the sake of improving the streams mechanism and clarifying its ultimate limitations.

Even if the final MWE seems too bulky, you could post cloud links to the source and pdf files. Thank you for your contribution.

Best wishes
Idris

------ Original Message ------
From "jbf" <roma83537@gmail.com<mailto:roma83537@gmail.com>>
To "Bruce Horrocks" <ntg@scorecrow.com<mailto:ntg@scorecrow.com>>; "mailing list for ConTeXt users" <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>>
Date 9/14/2023 4:04:27 PM
Subject [NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

** Caution: EXTERNAL Sender **

Bruce, that was kind of you to reply. I think we both know that the
streams mechanism, while 'workable' for the most part, is still in need
of refinement.

It is quite possible that what is causing my problem has less to do with
'streams' per se, and more to do with the use of this mechanism in a
'real book' using frontmatter, bodymatter etc. etc.

Since it would be too long and complicated an MWE to place here in the
list to demonstrate my problem, I will send you the file separately so
you can see the issue: effectively, the streams have worked for
frontmatter (Foreword), but when I get to Chapter 1 in bodymatter, they
are reversed. You will see that. I can't work out why, but you might be
able to see what is causing that.

And of course, I have two other problems to work out before I could use
this in a real production scenario: there is the one you have already
alluded to of extra pages occasionally beforehand (hopefully easily
solvable) but I can see another problem when the text is a lengthy
one... and this is the result of synchronization: when one language (vi)
takes up more space than the other (en), we get an awkward break at the
end of the chapter in en, so that the last line can 'catch up' with the
last paragraph (in vi). Maybe this one will be harder to solve!

Julian

On 14/9/23 20:14, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
On 13 Sep 2023, at 07:47, jbf <roma83537@gmail.com<mailto:roma83537@gmail.com>> wrote:
When I come to bodymatter and Chapter 1, again it works, except that the positions of the languages are reversed, so I end up with vi on the left and en on the right. By Chapter 2 we are back to the correct position once more (en left and vi right).
I want to know why this is happening, and if I can prevent it happening.

I've modified the sample code you got from Wolfgang to include chapter headings and it all looks fine to me[1] - the red text is all on the right hand side and the greeen text is all on the left. If this doesn't help and you still have problems then you'll need to post a sample that actually shows the problem. I'm using ConTeXt ver: 2023.09.04 19:15.

\starttext

\startoutputstream[one]
\startcolor[red]
\dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream One}
\dorecurse{10}{\input knuth\par}
}
\stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\startoutputstream[two]
\startcolor[green]
\dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream Two}
\dorecurse{10}{\input zapf\par}
}
\stopcolor
\stopoutputstream

\synchronizestreams[one,two]

\setbox\scratchboxone\outputstreambox[one]
\setbox\scratchboxtwo\outputstreambox[two]

\doloop
{\ifvoid\scratchboxone
\exitloop
\else
\setbox\scratchboxfour\vsplit\scratchboxone to \textheight
\vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfour\vss}%
\setbox\scratchboxfive\vsplit\scratchboxtwo to \textheight
\vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfive\vss}%
\fi}

\stoptext


[1] Apart from unnecessary blank pages at the beginning but that's a different problem so I'm not addressing that for now.

—
Bruce Horrocks
--
Idris Samawi Hamid, Professor
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[jbf]

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Thanks Idris.

See my response to Bruce, and indeed his response to mine earlier. I'll 
have to leave it at that for now. Too many other matters pressing.

Julian

On 15/9/23 22:43, Hamid,Idris wrote:
> Hi Julian,
>
> Am also interested in this matter (and played a bit with the code you 
> provided); one suspects that others are as well.
>
> Based on past experience, can affirm that it's sometimes 
> time-consuming, even a pain, to produce an MWE to reproduce the 
> relevant behavior. But it would be well worth the effort for the sake 
> of improving the streams mechanism and clarifying its ultimate 
> limitations.
>
> Even if the final MWE seems too bulky, you could post cloud links to 
> the source and pdf files. Thank you for your contribution.
>
> Best wishes
> Idris
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "jbf" <roma83537@gmail.com>
> To "Bruce Horrocks" <ntg@scorecrow.com>; "mailing list for ConTeXt 
> users" <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Date 9/14/2023 4:04:27 PM
> Subject [NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?
>
>> ** Caution: EXTERNAL Sender **
>> Bruce, that was kind of you to reply. I think we both know that the
>> streams mechanism, while 'workable' for the most part, is still in need
>> of refinement.
>> It is quite possible that what is causing my problem has less to do with
>> 'streams' per se, and more to do with the use of this mechanism in a
>> 'real book' using frontmatter, bodymatter etc. etc.
>> Since it would be too long and complicated an MWE to place here in the
>> list to demonstrate my problem, I will send you the file separately so
>> you can see the issue: effectively, the streams have worked for
>> frontmatter (Foreword), but when I get to Chapter 1 in bodymatter, they
>> are reversed. You will see that. I can't work out why, but you might be
>> able to see what is causing that.
>> And of course, I have two other problems to work out before I could use
>> this in a real production scenario: there is the one you have already
>> alluded to of extra pages occasionally beforehand (hopefully easily
>> solvable) but I can see another problem when the text is a lengthy
>> one... and this is the result of synchronization: when one language (vi)
>> takes up more space than the other (en), we get an awkward break at the
>> end of the chapter in en, so that the last line can 'catch up' with the
>> last paragraph (in vi). Maybe this one will be harder to solve!
>> Julian
>> On 14/9/23 20:14, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 13 Sep 2023, at 07:47, jbf <roma83537@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> When I come to bodymatter and Chapter 1, again it works, except 
>>>> that the positions of the languages are reversed, so I end up with 
>>>> vi on the left and en on the right. By Chapter 2 we are back to the 
>>>> correct position once more (en left and vi right).
>>>> I want to know why this is happening, and if I can prevent it 
>>>> happening.
>>> I've modified the sample code you got from Wolfgang to include 
>>> chapter headings and it all looks fine to me[1] - the red text is 
>>> all on the right hand side and the greeen text is all on the left. 
>>> If this doesn't help and you still have problems then you'll need to 
>>> post a sample that actually shows the problem. I'm using ConTeXt 
>>> ver: 2023.09.04 19:15.
>>> \starttext
>>> \startoutputstream[one]
>>> \startcolor[red]
>>> \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream One}
>>> \dorecurse{10}{\input knuth\par}
>>> }
>>> \stopcolor
>>> \stopoutputstream
>>> \startoutputstream[two]
>>> \startcolor[green]
>>> \dorecurse{5}{\chapter{Stream Two}
>>> \dorecurse{10}{\input zapf\par}
>>> }
>>> \stopcolor
>>> \stopoutputstream
>>> \synchronizestreams[one,two]
>>> \setbox\scratchboxone\outputstreambox[one]
>>> \setbox\scratchboxtwo\outputstreambox[two]
>>> \doloop
>>> {\ifvoid\scratchboxone
>>> \exitloop
>>> \else
>>> \setbox\scratchboxfour\vsplit\scratchboxone to \textheight
>>> \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfour\vss}%
>>> \setbox\scratchboxfive\vsplit\scratchboxtwo to \textheight
>>> \vbox to \vsize{\box\scratchboxfive\vss}%
>>> \fi}
>>> \stoptext
>>> [1] Apart from unnecessary blank pages at the beginning but that's a 
>>> different problem so I'm not addressing that for now.
>>> —
>>> Bruce Horrocks
> -- 
> Idris Samawi Hamid, Professor
> Department of Philosophy
> Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, CO 80523

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[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 9/16/2023 12:57 AM, jbf wrote:
> Thanks Idris.
> 
> See my response to Bruce, and indeed his response to mine earlier. I'll 
> have to leave it at that for now. Too many other matters pressing.
> 
> Julian
This is why mechanism like these never come to completion: it takes 
times, experimenting, documenting, basically a cycle that can take a 
while. Quite often it stops when some (intermediate) goal is reached and 
no more time is available. That lowers the priority.

Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: streams reversed?

[jbf]

My feeling at the moment is that this might be about the only way one 
could go ahead in a production situation, and yes, I am familiar with 
PDF tools that can achieve this, though it is effectively stepping aside 
from ConTeXt and working with PDF. For that matter I can easily go ahead 
with a commercial program that solves all the problems thus far 
indicated. I think it is true to say that at the moment, the streams 
mechanism is far too klunky to be able to use it extensively. For a 
handful of pages (and especially if the two streams re absolutely equal 
in length) it is workable. Beyond that, at least for the moment, it is 
not, and I am afraid I do not have the luxury of time to try to refine 
it. Your efforts, Bruce, are hugely appreciated, but also confirm the 
difficulties faced thus far.

Julian

On 15/9/23 22:44, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> An alternate option, might be to consider producing the body matter as two 'independent' books, one with the pages on the left and page numbered 1,3,5 and the other numbered 2,4,6 and then merge them as PDF pages into the final book. Then merge frontmatter and back matter. If you are reasonably familiar with PDF splitting / joing tools then this might be the simplest solution.
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