[OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Philipp Gesang]

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http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2213858&WT.mc_id=Author_Knuth_20Questions

Quote:

   “The people at MSP wrote special software that converts my TeX
    source text into suitable input to other software that
    creates pdf files.”

I wonder why using a TeX engine capable of producing PDF output
directly wasn’t an option.

Best,
Philipp


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Re: [OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/21/2014 8:16 AM, Philipp Gesang wrote:
> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2213858&WT.mc_id=Author_Knuth_20Questions
>
> Quote:
>
>     “The people at MSP wrote special software that converts my TeX
>      source text into suitable input to other software that
>      creates pdf files.”
>
> I wonder why using a TeX engine capable of producing PDF output
> directly wasn’t an option.

Don't overestimate the large publishers. They often have no clue what 
interactive pdf is or what is needed to make it, and that it can be done 
easily. Also, as they have no r&d, they seldom know that producing both 
an advanced screen pdf and printable one from the same source without 
adaption is an option. This apart from the fact that there is really 
nothing new happening: it's just that we now have devices that run on 
batteries longer (we made out first interactive docs 15-20 years ago and 
there were simply no (cheap) devices then. But the techniques for 
producing those docs (as well as the features) are mostly the same.

Things that are normal for us texies are alien for most publishers, also 
because they outsource these things. They are not aware of tex (maybe 
only know the name) and of what it can(not) do. A publisher who knows 
how to apply tex and friends has definitely an advantage but that 
demands a horizon different from stockholders.

In fact, awareness of pdf as option is (imo) mostly surfacing because 
html viewers opened their eyes. We can produce highly interactive 
documents but I still have to meet the first publishers who really wants 
them (given that they see it as option). It is not uncommon for 
publishers to waste many man years (hiring extra people) on getting 
stuff on the web using the same sources that are used to get the paper: 
paper becomes a side effect.

(This is also why I would not be surprised if within a decade those 
publishers will disappear and be replaced by smaller ones and/or self 
publishing, but that's another matter.)

Concerning DEK's books: given that the layout is kind of fixed (as Don 
puts a lot of admirable effort in the whole look and feel) I assume 
we're talking of interactive variants of the same layout. In that case 
it's a matter of adapting macros (not too hard, would even be fun to do) 
to get the interactivity in there. I'm pretty sure that Don knows well 
what happens in tex community (including recent developments like 
luatex) but that doesn't change the fact that in the end the publisher 
rules.

Maybe these e-books have some banding (like printing the user's name 
someplace) but that is also ancient trickery (which in my opinion is 
also a bad thing: imagine your paper books or music you buy being 
branded).

Hans

(I'm still waiting for 500+ dpi e-ink kind of devices as reading from a 
too bright lcd screen is no real option for me yet, apart from a bit of 
browsing.)

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/21/2014 8:16 AM, Philipp Gesang wrote:
> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2213858&WT.mc_id=Author_Knuth_20Questions
>
> Quote:
>
>     “The people at MSP wrote special software that converts my TeX
>      source text into suitable input to other software that
>      creates pdf files.”
>
> I wonder why using a TeX engine capable of producing PDF output
> directly wasn’t an option.

The part about "geeks" of 200 years ago is interesting. Also this:

local quote = [[
   I still think many years will have to go by before I
   would recommend that my own highly intelligent wife, son,
   and daughter should learn to program, much less that
   everybody else I know should do so.]]

local maybe = string.gsub(quote,"program","TeX")

Who knows ...

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/21/2014 8:16 AM, Philipp Gesang wrote:
> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2213858&WT.mc_id=Author_Knuth_20Questions
>
> Quote:
>
>     “The people at MSP wrote special software that converts my TeX
>      source text into suitable input to other software that
>      creates pdf files.”
>
> I wonder why using a TeX engine capable of producing PDF output
> directly wasn’t an option.

Ok, I think this is what sums it:

quote: "My principal goal was to make the books easily searchable—and 
that's a much more challenging problem than it seems, if you want to do 
it right. Secondarily, I wanted to let readers easily click on the 
number of any exercise or equation or illustration or table or 
algorithm, etc., and to jump to that exercise; also to jump readily 
between an exercise and its answer."

(1) The interactive bit is rather trivial: cross references, tocs and 
indices, linking answers and questions, are already generated so there 
one only needs to add some hyperlinking code (maybe some additional 
housekeeping if backlinks or in the case of indices linked backlinks are 
supported but it is probably kept simple in order not to spoil the look 
and feel.)

(2) The searching might be more complex as traditional 8 bit fonts are 
used in plain tex, so there is some tounicode magic needed (not too hard 
either, mostly housekeeping and careful checking) ... math can be 
somewhat complex there as not all is copyable, given that it's needed, 
but on the other hand, searching is also non trivial: does a reader 
search for "unicode symbol math italic i" or for just an "i"? Copying 
math demands a proper tounicode, but I bet no viewer can search for both 
kind of tagging at the same time (math alphabet stuff). Searching 
regular text of course is no issue.

(3) The question is: has more been added than just basic access as in 
books? Crosslinking books and so?

So, no rocket science, mostly careful keeping the original (not 
interfering with breaks and so) so that is probably where most of the 
work went into. If pdftex was used, one thing to keep in mind is that 
adding whatsits can interfere sometimes. This can be avoided by luatex 
but then one has to accept the fact that the output can differ (no lig 
recomposition), although that can be checked by diffing pdf's and making 
local exceptions. A nice challenge: kind of making an electronic 
facsimile i.e. don't touch (spoil) the original.

Hans

ps. An interesting audience, those asking the questions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 21.05.2014 09:54, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
> In fact, awareness of pdf as option is (imo) mostly surfacing because
> html viewers opened their eyes. We can produce highly interactive
> documents but I still have to meet the first publishers who really wants
> them (given that they see it as option). It is not uncommon for
> publishers to waste many man years (hiring extra people) on getting
> stuff on the web using the same sources that are used to get the paper:
> paper becomes a side effect.

Just a small anecdote to confirm: about 3 years ago, I did a book with a 
publisher here in Germany. They wanted to do an ebook as well, so I told 
them I could easily add interactive features etc. They said no, that 
wasn't necessary, they had their own experts working on these things. 
These experts ended offering the exact same pdf I had sent them as a 
"ebook" download, with cropmarks and context information at the bottom 
of the page. Bloody amateurs...

Thomas
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Re: [OT] Twenty Questions for DEK

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/23/2014 4:27 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On 21.05.2014 09:54, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>
>> In fact, awareness of pdf as option is (imo) mostly surfacing because
>> html viewers opened their eyes. We can produce highly interactive
>> documents but I still have to meet the first publishers who really wants
>> them (given that they see it as option). It is not uncommon for
>> publishers to waste many man years (hiring extra people) on getting
>> stuff on the web using the same sources that are used to get the paper:
>> paper becomes a side effect.
>
> Just a small anecdote to confirm: about 3 years ago, I did a book with a
> publisher here in Germany. They wanted to do an ebook as well, so I told
> them I could easily add interactive features etc. They said no, that
> wasn't necessary, they had their own experts working on these things.
> These experts ended offering the exact same pdf I had sent them as a
> "ebook" download, with cropmarks and context information at the bottom
> of the page. Bloody amateurs...

well, you're still better of than Don who had to pay himself to get a 
decent ebook being done by the publisher

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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