Starting with bibliography / international entries

Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Hi,

it’s the first time I need a proper bibliography, and our book will be published in three languages (German, English and Russian).
Most of the sources are in Russian.

I’d use everything (titles, author names) in original spelling (i.e. cyrillic), but would like to provide also a transliteration.
In German and English issues I’d like to use a „Latin“ reference code, in Russian a Cyrillic (or original-type) one.

What format would you suggest for the database?
Can ConTeXt MkIV already handle something „better“ than .bib?
(I guess the information in the wiki is outdated?)
Does general BibTeX documentation still apply?

Greetlings, Hraban
---
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https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 13.10.2014 um 12:31 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net>:

> Hi,
> 
> it’s the first time I need a proper bibliography, and our book will be published in three languages (German, English and Russian).
> Most of the sources are in Russian.
> 
> I’d use everything (titles, author names) in original spelling (i.e. cyrillic), but would like to provide also a transliteration.
> In German and English issues I’d like to use a „Latin“ reference code, in Russian a Cyrillic (or original-type) one.
> 
> What format would you suggest for the database?
> Can ConTeXt MkIV already handle something „better“ than .bib?
> (I guess the information in the wiki is outdated?)
> Does general BibTeX documentation still apply?

The context suite comes with the file mkiv-publications.pdf which is the manual for the new bibliography mechanism.

Wolfgang
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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2014-10-13 um 16:49 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com>:

> The context suite comes with the file mkiv-publications.pdf which is the manual for the new bibliography mechanism.

Thanks for the hint, I didn’t look after that.

I guess I will use the Lua syntax, since it’s the shortest.
And hopefully I’ll figure out how to setup the output ;-)

But how would you cope with the international (i.e. Cyrillic) titles/authors?
Should I define fields like author_original or is there a better way (maybe define the book twice, using crossref)?


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2014-10-13 um 18:00 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net>:

> Am 2014-10-13 um 16:49 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com>:
> 
>> The context suite comes with the file mkiv-publications.pdf which is the manual for the new bibliography mechanism.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, I didn’t look after that.
> 
> I guess I will use the Lua syntax, since it’s the shortest.

… or stay with .bib, since there are tools for it, and maybe someone else might need my data.

> And hopefully I’ll figure out how to setup the output ;-)
> 
> But how would you cope with the international (i.e. Cyrillic) titles/authors?
> Should I define fields like author_original or is there a better way (maybe define the book twice, using crossref)?

I found this about BibLaTeX / Babel:
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/28010/how-to-create-multilingual-english-japanese-bibliographies-with-biblatex-bib
It’s nearly the same problem as mine.

BibLaTeX 3.0 + Biber 2.0 are advertised to support this syntax:

@COLLECTION{yanagida_zengaku_sosho_1975,
  LANGID = {japanese},
  EDITOR = {柳田聖山},
  EDITOR_romanised = {Yanagida, Seizan},
  TITLE = {禪學叢書},
  TITLE_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
  TITLE_translated_english = {Collected Materials for the Study of Zen},
  LOCATION = {京都},
  LOCATION_romanised = {Kyōto},
  LOCATION_translated_english = {Kyoto},
  PUBLISHER = {中文出版社},
  PUBLISHER_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
  DATE = {1974/1977}
}

… and extract the right version according to configuration.
Is there support for these constructed keys in ConTeXt?

Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/13/2014 5:18 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 2014-10-13 um 18:00 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net>:
>
>> Am 2014-10-13 um 16:49 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> The context suite comes with the file mkiv-publications.pdf which is the manual for the new bibliography mechanism.
>>
>> Thanks for the hint, I didn’t look after that.
>>
>> I guess I will use the Lua syntax, since it’s the shortest.
>
> … or stay with .bib, since there are tools for it, and maybe someone else might need my data.
>
>> And hopefully I’ll figure out how to setup the output ;-)
>>
>> But how would you cope with the international (i.e. Cyrillic) titles/authors?
>> Should I define fields like author_original or is there a better way (maybe define the book twice, using crossref)?
>
> I found this about BibLaTeX / Babel:
> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/28010/how-to-create-multilingual-english-japanese-bibliographies-with-biblatex-bib
> It’s nearly the same problem as mine.
>
> BibLaTeX 3.0 + Biber 2.0 are advertised to support this syntax:
>
> @COLLECTION{yanagida_zengaku_sosho_1975,
>    LANGID = {japanese},
>    EDITOR = {柳田聖山},
>    EDITOR_romanised = {Yanagida, Seizan},
>    TITLE = {禪學叢書},
>    TITLE_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>    TITLE_translated_english = {Collected Materials for the Study of Zen},
>    LOCATION = {京都},
>    LOCATION_romanised = {Kyōto},
>    LOCATION_translated_english = {Kyoto},
>    PUBLISHER = {中文出版社},
>    PUBLISHER_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>    DATE = {1974/1977}
> }
>
> … and extract the right version according to configuration.
> Is there support for these constructed keys in ConTeXt?

sure, you can use any field you like and you can adapt yoru rendering 
setups to use them

the problem is not so much to support variants of fields (although I 
really dislike this mixed upper/lowercase mess)

the main question is: how mixed is this used? are EDITOR and 
EDITOR_whatever used at the same time?

Hans

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Mon, 13 Oct 2014 18:22:09 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:

>> I found this about BibLaTeX / Babel:
>> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/28010/how-to-create-multilingual-english-japanese-bibliographies-with-biblatex-bib
>> It’s nearly the same problem as mine.
>>
>> BibLaTeX 3.0 + Biber 2.0 are advertised to support this syntax:

Well actually (after a renumbering) one needs biblatex 4.0 and biber
3.0.

>>
>> @COLLECTION{yanagida_zengaku_sosho_1975,
>>    LANGID = {japanese},
>>    EDITOR = {柳田聖山},
>>    EDITOR_romanised = {Yanagida, Seizan},
>>    TITLE = {禪學叢書},
>>    TITLE_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>>    TITLE_translated_english = {Collected Materials for the Study of Zen},
>>    LOCATION = {京都},
>>    LOCATION_romanised = {Kyōto},
>>    LOCATION_translated_english = {Kyoto},
>>    PUBLISHER = {中文出版社},
>>    PUBLISHER_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>>    DATE = {1974/1977}
>> }
>>
>> … and extract the right version according to configuration.
>> Is there support for these constructed keys in ConTeXt?
> 
> sure, you can use any field you like and you can adapt yoru rendering 
> setups to use them
> 
> the problem is not so much to support variants of fields (although I 
> really dislike this mixed upper/lowercase mess)

You can write everything in lowercase if you want. The syntax only
expects the _ to separate the main field and the variant/language. 

> the main question is: how mixed is this used? are EDITOR and 
> EDITOR_whatever used at the same time?

You can. There are commands to choose a specific variant, but you
can also define fallbacks. So something like 
"Editor (Editor_translated)" or "Editor translated but fall back to
editor if it doesn't exist" is possible. 

The main problem is not to get lost in the variants/fallback chains. 

Another problem is to get name lists right: After all it is possible
that only some authors needs to be romanised. But with the help of
the name hashes I was at the end able to do something like "Müller
and  柳田聖山 (Yanagida, Seizan) ..."

Smaller problems are how to write the names correctly -- after all
not everywhere in the world names follows the "lastname, fistname"
convention. 

I had some longer discussion about this with the
biber/biblatex-maintainer:
https://github.com/plk/biblatex/issues/132



-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/14/2014 10:19 AM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> Am Mon, 13 Oct 2014 18:22:09 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>
>>> I found this about BibLaTeX / Babel:
>>> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/28010/how-to-create-multilingual-english-japanese-bibliographies-with-biblatex-bib
>>> It’s nearly the same problem as mine.
>>>
>>> BibLaTeX 3.0 + Biber 2.0 are advertised to support this syntax:
>
> Well actually (after a renumbering) one needs biblatex 4.0 and biber
> 3.0.
>
>>>
>>> @COLLECTION{yanagida_zengaku_sosho_1975,
>>>     LANGID = {japanese},
>>>     EDITOR = {柳田聖山},
>>>     EDITOR_romanised = {Yanagida, Seizan},
>>>     TITLE = {禪學叢書},
>>>     TITLE_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>>>     TITLE_translated_english = {Collected Materials for the Study of Zen},
>>>     LOCATION = {京都},
>>>     LOCATION_romanised = {Kyōto},
>>>     LOCATION_translated_english = {Kyoto},
>>>     PUBLISHER = {中文出版社},
>>>     PUBLISHER_romanised = {Chūbun shuppansha},
>>>     DATE = {1974/1977}
>>> }
>>>
>>> … and extract the right version according to configuration.
>>> Is there support for these constructed keys in ConTeXt?
>>
>> sure, you can use any field you like and you can adapt yoru rendering
>> setups to use them
>>
>> the problem is not so much to support variants of fields (although I
>> really dislike this mixed upper/lowercase mess)
>
> You can write everything in lowercase if you want. The syntax only
> expects the _ to separate the main field and the variant/language.
>
>> the main question is: how mixed is this used? are EDITOR and
>> EDITOR_whatever used at the same time?
>
> You can. There are commands to choose a specific variant, but you
> can also define fallbacks. So something like
> "Editor (Editor_translated)" or "Editor translated but fall back to
> editor if it doesn't exist" is possible.
>
> The main problem is not to get lost in the variants/fallback chains.

That was my initial impression too. There are simply too many 
combination possible. In such a case it makes more sense to tune the 
rendering than to figure out all the options. So, in context speak that 
would mean something:

     \btxdoif {title} {
         \btxspace
         \btxflush{title}
         \btxdoifelse {title_variant_b} {
             \btxleftparenthesis
             \btxflush{title_variant_b}
             \btxrightparenthesis
         } {
             \btxdoif {title_variant_a} {
                 \btxleftparenthesis
                 \btxflush{title_variant_a}
                 \btxrightparenthesis
             }
         }
         \btxperiod
     }

Authors are of course somewhat more complex as there one needs to deal 
with the way names are constructed. But even then, in such cases 
adapting a few setups is not most work.

> Another problem is to get name lists right: After all it is possible
> that only some authors needs to be romanised. But with the help of
> the name hashes I was at the end able to do something like "Müller
> and  柳田聖山 (Yanagida, Seizan) ..."

so basically you order by a mix of name and romanized name (or romanized 
name with name as fallback)?

> Smaller problems are how to write the names correctly -- after all
> not everywhere in the world names follows the "lastname, fistname"
> convention.

yes, although if you use APA it might have rules for that (but that is 
Alan's speciality)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:41:19 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:

>> The main problem is not to get lost in the variants/fallback chains.
 
> That was my initial impression too. There are simply too many 
> combination possible. In such a case it makes more sense to tune the 
> rendering than to figure out all the options. 

Well to tune the rendering one has to sort out the logic first ;-)

You first has to decide "do I want title_variant_a always, or only
if the main language of the document is english, or only if an
option is set or only if ...". 
What should happen if the language of the document is in japanese,
the bib-entry is a french book and there is a translated_chinese
variant of the title? 


> So, in context speak that would mean something:

In the end the biblatex code is similar. It has some more options to
access and handle variants. 

>> Another problem is to get name lists right: After all it is possible
>> that only some authors needs to be romanised. But with the help of
>> the name hashes I was at the end able to do something like "Müller
>> and  柳田聖山 (Yanagida, Seizan) ..."
 
> so basically you order by a mix of name and romanized name (or romanized 
> name with name as fallback)?

In this special case it seemed the logical thing to do. "Müller
(Müller) and 柳田聖山 (Yanagida, Seizan) ..." or "Müller and 柳田聖山
(Müller and Yanagida, Seizan) ..." would look odd. 



-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: Starting with bibliography / international entries

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:06:59 +0200
Ulrike Fischer <news3@nililand.de> wrote:

> You first has to decide "do I want title_variant_a always, or only
> if the main language of the document is english, or only if an
> option is set or only if ...". 
> What should happen if the language of the document is in japanese,
> the bib-entry is a french book and there is a translated_chinese
> variant of the title? 

According to the APA style guide:

"If the original version of a non-English article is used as the
source, cite the original version. Give the original title and, in
brackets, the English translation."
"If an English translation of a non-English article is used as the
source, cite the English translation. Give the English title without
brackets."

Other styles might specify differently.

Hans and I are working (furiously) on the new mkiv bibliography
subsystem. We have been discussing language (with Thomas as well). The
title= will be typeset (and hyphenated) according to the language=
field, if present; The rest of the bibliography list ("and", for
example) will be typeset using the document language. A global
bibliography rendering option can modify this choice.

Alan

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