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* Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
@ 2015-06-28 10:59 Dr. Dominik Klein
  2015-06-30  8:32 ` luigi scarso
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Dominik Klein @ 2015-06-28 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

Context is the only Tex-based system that allows to properly tag a pdf. 
Tagged PDFs are one major requirement for accessibility.

Indeed, in several large organizations/universities, accessibility is 
mandated by law, and this is a major obstacle for using Tex. In practice 
compliance is often assessed with Acrobat Pro's
accessibility checker.

Context produces a nice tag-structure, but there are some minor issues 
that prevent compliance to [1], and hence Acrobat Pro complains during 
the check. The main issues are:

1.) Elements that are not contained in the structure tree are not marked 
as an artifact. Consider this example:

-------------------------------
\setuptagging[state=start]

\setuppagenumbering
[location=,
  alternative=doublesided]

\setupheadertexts
   [{Chapter~\getmarking[chapternumber]\hskip1em\getmarking[chapter]}]
   [{Header Right}]
   [{Header Left}]
   [{Chapter~\getmarking[chapternumber]\hskip1em\getmarking[chapter]}]

\setupfootertexts
   [Organization Name]
   [pagenumber]
   [pagenumber]
   [Organization Name]

\starttext
\startfrontmatter
something
\stopfrontmatter

\startbodymatter
some more text here
\stopbodymatter
\stoptext
-------------------------------

Header, footer, pagenumber etc. will not be included in the tag 
structure. Of course this makes absolutely sense and is correct, however 
according to Section 14.8.2.2.2 of [1], then this content that is not in 
the structure tree should be marked as an artifact, i.e.

/Artifact
   BMC
   ..
   EMC

or in an advanced way with /Artifact PropertyList where the type of 
Artifact can be defined. It would be nice if those elements that are not 
included in the tag tree would be marked as artifacts by default. The 
same holds for \startelement[ignore] when one wants to explicitly remove 
something from the structure tree.

2.) Images without alternate text:
According to Section 14.9.3 of [1], alternate descriptions in human 
readable text should be provided for images. It would be really helpful,
if these could be defined in the source tex file, and then automatically
added when creating the object in the structure tree. I.e. it would be
nice to have something like:

\placefigure[top][Image Reference]{Caption}{
\externalfigure[cow.pdf][width=10cm][alternate text = "This images shows 
a beautiful cow."]
}

The same holds for formulas: Whereas the mathml-like tagging of Context 
is very advanced, sometimes it might be still helpful to supply a 
textual description (alt-text ="The definition of the Pythagorean 
theorem: a^2 + b^2 = c^2")

3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:
Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types, such as <H>, 
<P>, <Sect> etc. Context creates a tag-tree that uses names directly 
representing the structure names of the context laguage, such as 
<sectiontitle>. This should however be mapped to something standard, 
such as <H>. Interestingly these mappings seem to have been considered 
in strc-tag.mkiv but I was unable to generate such a tagged pdf. 
Editing/Outcommenting things in strc-tag.mkiv didn't work for me. It 
would be nice if there was a switch somewhere, i.e. 
\setuptagging[state=start,tagnames=pdf17] - or maybe I overlooked something?

4.) Acrobat Pro always complains that the language for the whole 
document is not set.

5.) Tables
The generated structure looks something like this:
<table>
  <tablerow>
    <tablecell>
    ...
  <tablerow>
    <tablecell>
  ...

Here, not only are the tag names non-compliant, also the tag structure
should distinguish between the table header (THead), and table rows 
(TBody), c.f. Section 14.8.4.3.1 of [1]. A simple heuristic would be
to always put the first line into THead tags, and the rest of the able 
into TBody.

6.) It would be nice if a flat tag structure could be created 
optionally. This is not a required feature according to [1], and in fact 
a properly nested structure is surely preferable for the final output; 
for debugging or checking during document creation however, a flat 
structure tree sometimes is easier to browse through.

All in all, these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible PDF 
documents with context. For those within an organization where 
accessibility is required legally for all publications, compliance to at 
least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult 
these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in 
the code), but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange
for question related to accessibility, this is indeed a major obstacle 
for several people.

cheers

- Dominik


[1] ISO 32000-1:2008, available at
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
@ 2015-06-30  8:32 ` luigi scarso
  2015-06-30  9:00 ` Alan BRASLAU
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2015-06-30  8:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5364 bytes --]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein <
Dominik.Klein@outlook.com> wrote:

> Context is the only Tex-based system that allows to properly tag a pdf.
> Tagged PDFs are one major requirement for accessibility.
>
> Indeed, in several large organizations/universities, accessibility is
> mandated by law, and this is a major obstacle for using Tex. In practice
> compliance is often assessed with Acrobat Pro's
> accessibility checker.
>
> Context produces a nice tag-structure, but there are some minor issues
> that prevent compliance to [1], and hence Acrobat Pro complains during the
> check. The main issues are:
>
> 1.) Elements that are not contained in the structure tree are not marked
> as an artifact. Consider this example:
>
> -------------------------------
> \setuptagging[state=start]
>
> \setuppagenumbering
> [location=,
>  alternative=doublesided]
>
> \setupheadertexts
>   [{Chapter~\getmarking[chapternumber]\hskip1em\getmarking[chapter]}]
>   [{Header Right}]
>   [{Header Left}]
>   [{Chapter~\getmarking[chapternumber]\hskip1em\getmarking[chapter]}]
>
> \setupfootertexts
>   [Organization Name]
>   [pagenumber]
>   [pagenumber]
>   [Organization Name]
>
> \starttext
> \startfrontmatter
> something
> \stopfrontmatter
>
> \startbodymatter
> some more text here
> \stopbodymatter
> \stoptext
> -------------------------------
>
> Header, footer, pagenumber etc. will not be included in the tag structure.
> Of course this makes absolutely sense and is correct, however according to
> Section 14.8.2.2.2 of [1], then this content that is not in the structure
> tree should be marked as an artifact, i.e.
>
> /Artifact
>   BMC
>   ..
>   EMC
>
> or in an advanced way with /Artifact PropertyList where the type of
> Artifact can be defined. It would be nice if those elements that are not
> included in the tag tree would be marked as artifacts by default. The same
> holds for \startelement[ignore] when one wants to explicitly remove
> something from the structure tree.
>
> 2.) Images without alternate text:
> According to Section 14.9.3 of [1], alternate descriptions in human
> readable text should be provided for images. It would be really helpful,
> if these could be defined in the source tex file, and then automatically
> added when creating the object in the structure tree. I.e. it would be
> nice to have something like:
>
> \placefigure[top][Image Reference]{Caption}{
> \externalfigure[cow.pdf][width=10cm][alternate text = "This images shows a
> beautiful cow."]
> }
>
> The same holds for formulas: Whereas the mathml-like tagging of Context is
> very advanced, sometimes it might be still helpful to supply a textual
> description (alt-text ="The definition of the Pythagorean theorem: a^2 +
> b^2 = c^2")
>
> 3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:
> Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types, such as <H>, <P>,
> <Sect> etc. Context creates a tag-tree that uses names directly
> representing the structure names of the context laguage, such as
> <sectiontitle>. This should however be mapped to something standard, such
> as <H>. Interestingly these mappings seem to have been considered in
> strc-tag.mkiv but I was unable to generate such a tagged pdf.
> Editing/Outcommenting things in strc-tag.mkiv didn't work for me. It would
> be nice if there was a switch somewhere, i.e.
> \setuptagging[state=start,tagnames=pdf17] - or maybe I overlooked something?
>
> 4.) Acrobat Pro always complains that the language for the whole document
> is not set.
>
> 5.) Tables
> The generated structure looks something like this:
> <table>
>  <tablerow>
>    <tablecell>
>    ...
>  <tablerow>
>    <tablecell>
>  ...
>
> Here, not only are the tag names non-compliant, also the tag structure
> should distinguish between the table header (THead), and table rows
> (TBody), c.f. Section 14.8.4.3.1 of [1]. A simple heuristic would be
> to always put the first line into THead tags, and the rest of the able
> into TBody.
>
> 6.) It would be nice if a flat tag structure could be created optionally.
> This is not a required feature according to [1], and in fact a properly
> nested structure is surely preferable for the final output; for debugging
> or checking during document creation however, a flat structure tree
> sometimes is easier to browse through.
>
> All in all, these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible PDF
> documents with context. For those within an organization where
> accessibility is required legally for all publications, compliance to at
> least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult
> these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in the
> code), but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange
> for question related to accessibility, this is indeed a major obstacle for
> several people.
>
> cheers
>
> - Dominik
>
>
> [1] ISO 32000-1:2008, available at
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>



Thank you for the report .
It would be nice to have a pdf made by context using \nopdfcompression
that have all these issues together with the report emitted by acrobat.
Last time I have checked a pfd/a-1a made by context it was all ok, but it
was time ago and maybe not
all the features were tested deeply.

-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
  2015-06-30  8:32 ` luigi scarso
@ 2015-06-30  9:00 ` Alan BRASLAU
  2015-06-30 15:58   ` Dominik Klein
  2015-07-01 15:51 ` Hans Hagen
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2015-06-30  9:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 12:59:26 +0200
"Dr. Dominik Klein" <Dominik.Klein@outlook.com> wrote:

> 2.) Images without alternate text:
> According to Section 14.9.3 of [1], alternate descriptions in human 
> readable text should be provided for images. It would be really
> helpful, if these could be defined in the source tex file, and then
> automatically added when creating the object in the structure tree.
> I.e. it would be nice to have something like:
> 
> \placefigure[top][Image Reference]{Caption}{
> \externalfigure[cow.pdf][width=10cm][alternate text = "This images
> shows a beautiful cow."]
> }

Maybe the syntax could be:

\externalfigure [cow] [width=10cm,marking={This image shows a beautiful
cow}]

(conforming to ConTeXt style)

Alan
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-30  9:00 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2015-06-30 15:58   ` Dominik Klein
  2015-06-30 16:02     ` luigi scarso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dominik Klein @ 2015-06-30 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 835 bytes --]

on Tue Jun 30 10:32:29 CEST 2015
luigi scarso wrote:

> It would be nice to have a pdf made by context using \nopdfcompression
> that have all these issues together with the report emitted by acrobat.
Nice idea. The document:
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc.tex
Resulting pdf (with \nocompression):
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc.pdf
Report of Acrobat 9 Pro (Menu Advanced -> Accessibility -> Full Check...)
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc_AdobePDF.html

Note that my goal was not to achieve compatibility w.r.t. pdf/a, I solely focused on accessibility (even though they may be related). Could be very well that I overlooked something, and some functionality is already there with context...

cheers

- Dominik
 		 	   		  

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-30 15:58   ` Dominik Klein
@ 2015-06-30 16:02     ` luigi scarso
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2015-06-30 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 948 bytes --]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Dominik Klein <dominik.klein@outlook.com>
wrote:

> on Tue Jun 30 10:32:29 CEST 2015
> luigi scarso wrote:
>
> > It would be nice to have a pdf made by context using \nopdfcompression
> > that have all these issues together with the report emitted by acrobat.
>
> Nice idea. The document:
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc.tex
> Resulting pdf (with \nocompression):
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc.pdf
> Report of Acrobat 9 Pro (Menu Advanced -> Accessibility -> Full Check...)
>
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/document_acc_AdobePDF.html
>
> Note that my goal was not to achieve compatibility w.r.t. pdf/a, I solely
> focused on accessibility (even though they may be related). Could be very
> well that I overlooked something, and some functionality is already there
> with context...
>
>

nice, thank you very much.


-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
  2015-06-30  8:32 ` luigi scarso
  2015-06-30  9:00 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2015-07-01 15:51 ` Hans Hagen
  2015-07-01 16:47 ` Hans Hagen
  2015-07-01 17:02 ` Hans Hagen
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-01 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

On 6/28/2015 12:59 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein wrote:
> 2.) Images without alternate text:
> According to Section 14.9.3 of [1], alternate descriptions in human
> readable text should be provided for images. It would be really helpful,
> if these could be defined in the source tex file, and then automatically
> added when creating the object in the structure tree. I.e. it would be
> nice to have something like:

i'll pass the label to the tag as alt text

\externalfigure[t:/sources/cow.pdf][label=whatever]

(a relative simple extension as we already have label as well as alt in 
images)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2015-07-01 15:51 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-07-01 16:47 ` Hans Hagen
  2015-07-01 17:02 ` Hans Hagen
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-01 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On 6/28/2015 12:59 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein wrote:

> /Artifact
>    BMC
>    ..
>    EMC
>
> or in an advanced way with /Artifact PropertyList where the type of
> Artifact can be defined. It would be nice if those elements that are not
> included in the tag tree would be marked as artifacts by default. The
> same holds for \startelement[ignore] when one wants to explicitly remove
> something from the structure tree.

i'll add the simple variant (i see no need to add properties to 
something that is supposed to be ignored anyway)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2015-07-01 16:47 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-07-01 17:02 ` Hans Hagen
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-01 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On 6/28/2015 12:59 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein wrote:

> 3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:
> Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types, such as <H>,
> <P>, <Sect> etc. Context creates a tag-tree that uses names directly
> representing the structure names of the context laguage, such as
> <sectiontitle>. This should however be mapped to something standard,
> such as <H>. Interestingly these mappings seem to have been considered
> in strc-tag.mkiv but I was unable to generate such a tagged pdf.
> Editing/Outcommenting things in strc-tag.mkiv didn't work for me. It
> would be nice if there was a switch somewhere, i.e.
> \setuptagging[state=start,tagnames=pdf17] - or maybe I overlooked
> something?

The set of those standard tags is rather limited and imo one of the 
craziest things in pdf as we then end up with abuse of those html tags 
(and probably endless discussions on what to map onto what). I don't 
even have a clue what it would add to the concept either. Reflow is a 
braindead thing anyway.

> 4.) Acrobat Pro always complains that the language for the whole
> document is not set.

I don't have the latest version of pro (a bit expensive for the few 
times that i need it - when we have to produce pdf it always has to be 
rather old fashioned as printing houses want pdf from the previous 
century).

> 5.) Tables
> The generated structure looks something like this:
> <table>
>   <tablerow>
>     <tablecell>
>     ...
>   <tablerow>
>     <tablecell>
>   ...
>
> Here, not only are the tag names non-compliant, also the tag structure
> should distinguish between the table header (THead), and table rows
> (TBody), c.f. Section 14.8.4.3.1 of [1]. A simple heuristic would be
> to always put the first line into THead tags, and the rest of the able
> into TBody.

Hm. It's just structure so I'm not sure what compliant means. If someone 
wants an html representation then it's better to use the export and 
apply some transformation on the generic structures (one that matches 
expections, that can differ).

When we start tagging tables in details in pdf we probably also need to 
add all kind of extra attributes and then we need to do that for more 
than tables. It's not so much impossible (as most info is present) but 
more an extremely boring thing to do and no (free) application uses that 
info anyway.

> 6.) It would be nice if a flat tag structure could be created
> optionally. This is not a required feature according to [1], and in fact
> a properly nested structure is surely preferable for the final output;
> for debugging or checking during document creation however, a flat
> structure tree sometimes is easier to browse through.

I'm not sure what is meant with flat.

> All in all, these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible PDF
> documents with context. For those within an organization where
> accessibility is required legally for all publications, compliance to at
> least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult
> these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in
> the code), but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange
> for question related to accessibility, this is indeed a major obstacle
> for several people.

In fact adding pdf tagging to context was rather easy. Some time was 
spend on getting it done efficiently but it's a rather non-intrusive bit 
of code. When I'd done it I only cleaned it up a bit when the export 
option was added (as some code is shared) but I have to admit that I 
never use it. Luigi and I did look into properties a whiel ago and that 
was added then.

So, it's not that difficult to add features, more a matter of priorities 
and motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by now 
so I cannot really test).

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-05 20:04       ` Dr. Dominik Klein
@ 2015-07-06  8:01         ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-06  8:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

On 7/5/2015 10:04 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein wrote:
> Am 05.07.15 um 13:11 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> On 7/4/2015 6:45 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 19:19:58 +0200
>>> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> sure but in the meantime we need to find a way to determine what works
>> and what not, for instance, as i mentioned that context already adds a
>> rolemap
>>
>> 11 0 obj
>> << /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R /RoleMap << /sectiontitle /H /section
>> /Sect /sectionnumber /H /document /Div >> /Type /StructTreeRoot >>
>> endobj
>>
>> we have no way to check if that works (so maybe we need to have a page
>> on the wiki with a viewer/functionality matrix)
>>
>
> The whole rolemap thing and how Acrobat Pro handles it leaves me
> somewhat puzzled.
>
> Taking https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap.tex and
> compiling will give the rolemap as Hans described above. Looking at the
> Tag structure, this seems to be ignored by acrobat (but why?), see
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap.PNG

i always suspect a chicken-egg issue there: someone wants a feature, it 
gets added to pdf, then there is waiting for some typesetting engine to 
support it, and then acrobat might do something with it and afterwards 
the spec gets adapted (or interpretation is adapted) .. it happened with 
widgets and such

the interesting thing about tex is that we can easily adapt to such new 
features but have no way of testing it

(some relates to the fact that pdf is both a document format and a 
storage format for e.g. illustrator so it's some hybrid)

maybe it's just: if we have tags it is accessible by definition, no 
matter if it can be used or not

> What would be expected is this, right? After all, the rolemap should be
> interpreted, shouldn't it (mapping /H to /H1 was a mistake of mine, but
> it doesn't change the fact).
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap2.PNG
> After changing things manually in the tag editor in acrobat, and saving
> the pdf again, this is obtained:
> https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap_edited.pdf

maybe the H etc is only used with reflow ... and reflow is weird in 
itself as one can then better provide an html file alongside the pdf

it makes me wonder how a complex doc with mostly H's would look / be 
interpreted as that is then the dominant structure thing

> Note this:
> << /RoleMap << /document /Div /sectionnumber /H /sectiontitle /H
> /section /Sect >> /Type /StructTreeRoot /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R >>
>
> and also the different structure elements at the start of the pdf...

the order of /Key values in the dicts is not important and hashes are 
often unordered (different per application or even per run for some 
applications for security reasons); when you play with widgets you will 
also observe that acrobat adds rendered content to the file as addition 
to the key/values

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-05 11:11     ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-07-05 20:04       ` Dr. Dominik Klein
  2015-07-06  8:01         ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Dominik Klein @ 2015-07-05 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

Am 05.07.15 um 13:11 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> On 7/4/2015 6:45 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 19:19:58 +0200
>> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> sure but in the meantime we need to find a way to determine what works
> and what not, for instance, as i mentioned that context already adds a
> rolemap
>
> 11 0 obj
> << /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R /RoleMap << /sectiontitle /H /section
> /Sect /sectionnumber /H /document /Div >> /Type /StructTreeRoot >>
> endobj
>
> we have no way to check if that works (so maybe we need to have a page
> on the wiki with a viewer/functionality matrix)
>

The whole rolemap thing and how Acrobat Pro handles it leaves me 
somewhat puzzled.

Taking https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap.tex and 
compiling will give the rolemap as Hans described above. Looking at the 
Tag structure, this seems to be ignored by acrobat (but why?), see
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap.PNG

What would be expected is this, right? After all, the rolemap should be 
interpreted, shouldn't it (mapping /H to /H1 was a mistake of mine, but 
it doesn't change the fact).
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap2.PNG
After changing things manually in the tag editor in acrobat, and saving 
the pdf again, this is obtained:
https://github.com/asdfjkl/tex-access/blob/master/rolemap_edited.pdf

Note this:
<< /RoleMap << /document /Div /sectionnumber /H /sectiontitle /H 
/section /Sect >> /Type /StructTreeRoot /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R >>

and also the different structure elements at the start of the pdf...

I am lost here...

cheers

- Dominik


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-04 16:45   ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2015-07-05 11:11     ` Hans Hagen
  2015-07-05 20:04       ` Dr. Dominik Klein
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-05 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Alan BRASLAU; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, dominik.klein

On 7/4/2015 6:45 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 19:19:58 +0200
> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> (i'm pretty sure that context was one of the first to support for
>> instance field (widget) trees but support for that in viewers changes
>> each version so one never knows what is the right way as specs
>> predate support in viewers)
>>
>> (in the same fashion tagging and layers is/are useless till it gets
>> supported in other viewers than acrobat)
>
> Maybe a subject to discuss at the next ConTeXt meeting.

sure but in the meantime we need to find a way to determine what works 
and what not, for instance, as i mentioned that context already adds a 
rolemap

11 0 obj
<< /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R /RoleMap << /sectiontitle /H /section 
/Sect /sectionnumber /H /document /Div >> /Type /StructTreeRoot >>
endobj

we have no way to check if that works (so maybe we need to have a page 
on the wiki with a viewer/functionality matrix)

(ok, we could peek into files produced by word and see what gets added 
there but even then)

Hans




-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-03 17:19 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-07-04 16:45   ` Alan BRASLAU
  2015-07-05 11:11     ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2015-07-04 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 19:19:58 +0200
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> (i'm pretty sure that context was one of the first to support for 
> instance field (widget) trees but support for that in viewers changes 
> each version so one never knows what is the right way as specs
> predate support in viewers)
> 
> (in the same fashion tagging and layers is/are useless till it gets 
> supported in other viewers than acrobat)

Maybe a subject to discuss at the next ConTeXt meeting.

Alan
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-03  8:12 Dominik Klein
@ 2015-07-03 17:19 ` Hans Hagen
  2015-07-04 16:45   ` Alan BRASLAU
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-03 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mailing list for ConTeXt users

On 7/3/2015 10:12 AM, Dominik Klein wrote:
>
> On Wed Jul 1, 18:47:57 CEST 2015, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>/  /Artifact
> />>/     BMC
> />>/     ..
> />>/     EMC
> />
>>i'll add the simple variant (i see no need to add properties to
>>something that is supposed to be ignored anyway)
>
> thanks!
>
>
>>>/  2.) Images without alternate text:
> />
>>i'll pass the label to the tag as alt text
>>
>>\externalfigure[t:/sources/cow.pdf][label=whatever]
>
> Again, thanks!
>
>>>/  3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:
> />>/  Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types,
> //>
> />The set of those standard tags is rather limited and imo one of the
>>craziest things in pdf as we then end up with abuse of those html tags
>>(and probably endless discussions on what to map onto what). I don't
>>even have a clue what it would add to the concept either. Reflow is a
>>braindead thing anyway.
>
> Indeed, the set of those tags is very limited. Unfortunately, as
> far as I know, some screen readers (for the visually impaired)
> use these as navigation aids, i.e. press button "jump to next section",
> and the reader will look for the next section marked as <Sect> or something.
>
> Is it difficult to make the mapping user-defineable in the source tex-file?
> Say, like such a command:
> \definemapping[
>    section=Sect,
>    sectiontitle=H
>    sectionnumber=H,
>    ...
>    tablerow=TR
>    ...
> ]
>
> It would then give users the control on what to map onto what, depending
> on what kind of documents they create.
>
>>>/  All in all, these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible PDF
>>/>/  documents with context. For those within an organization where
>>/>/  accessibility is required legally for all publications, compliance to at
>>/>/  least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult
>>/>/  these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in
>>/>/  the code), but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange
>>/>/  for question related to accessibility, this is indeed a major obstacle
>>/>/  for several people.
> />
>>In fact adding pdf tagging to context was rather easy. Some time was
>>So, it's not that difficult to add features, more a matter of priorities
>>and motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by now
>>so I cannot really test).
>
> I can fully understand that such things are not of the highest priority.
> Nevertheless accessibility plays more and more a role, e.g. lately, even
> conferences likehttp://chi2015.acm.org/authors/guide-to-an-accessible-submission/
> require accessible pdfs (the workflow they suggest, i.e. tagging a pdf
> by acrobat pro after compiling of course doesn't work at all - the generated
> structure is useless).
>
> Hence, for some users, it makes all the difference. For example for me and
> some other friends, it would allow to change from using Microsoft Word to
> a ConTeXt based workflow.

\nopdfcompression

\setuptagging[state=start]

\starttext

     \chapter{whatever}

\stoptext

gives a pdf with a rolemap like:

11 0 obj
<< /ParentTree 12 0 R /K 29 0 R /RoleMap << /sectiontitle /H /section 
/Sect /sectionnumber /H /document /Div >> /Type /StructTreeRoot >>
endobj

but as usual it's hard to check what gets done with such things

(i'm pretty sure that context was one of the first to support for 
instance field (widget) trees but support for that in viewers changes 
each version so one never knows what is the right way as specs predate 
support in viewers)

(in the same fashion tagging and layers is/are useless till it gets 
supported in other viewers than acrobat)



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
  2015-07-03 13:16 ` Christoph Reller
@ 2015-07-03 17:09   ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-07-03 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context

On 7/3/2015 3:16 PM, Christoph Reller wrote:

> And to add to your motivation ;-) :
> Google ranks tagged PDFs higher than non-tagged PDFs. For those moving
> from MS Word to ConTeXt this is a must.

I must admit that I don't care much about (in fact never noticed) 
ranking of files. The main thing I notice with google is that one gets 
more and more ads on top. Bestsellers are not always the best books -)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
       [not found] <mailman.1.1435831202.18251.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2015-07-03 13:16 ` Christoph Reller
  2015-07-03 17:09   ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Reller @ 2015-07-03 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 624 bytes --]

On Wed, 01 Jul 2015 19:02:08 +0200 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> So, it's not that difficult to add features, more a matter of priorities
> and motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by now
> so I cannot really test).
>

Dear Hans,

You can use the PDF Accessibility Checker for Testing (this might be even
better than Acrobat):
http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/pdf-lab/pdf-accessibility-checker-pac.html

And to add to your motivation ;-) :
Google ranks tagged PDFs higher than non-tagged PDFs. For those moving from
MS Word to ConTeXt this is a must.

Thank you for all your effort!

Christoph

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
@ 2015-07-03  8:12 Dominik Klein
  2015-07-03 17:19 ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dominik Klein @ 2015-07-03  8:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2848 bytes --]


On Wed Jul 1, 18:47:57 CEST 2015, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> /Artifact
>>    BMC
>>    ..
>>    EMC
>
>i'll add the simple variant (i see no need to add properties to 
>something that is supposed to be ignored anyway)

thanks!


>> 2.) Images without alternate text:
>
>i'll pass the label to the tag as alt text
>
>\externalfigure[t:/sources/cow.pdf][label=whatever]

Again, thanks!

>> 3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:
>> Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types, 
>
>The set of those standard tags is rather limited and imo one of the 
>craziest things in pdf as we then end up with abuse of those html tags 
>(and probably endless discussions on what to map onto what). I don't 
>even have a clue what it would add to the concept either. Reflow is a 
>braindead thing anyway.

Indeed, the set of those tags is very limited. Unfortunately, as 
far as I know, some screen readers (for the visually impaired)
use these as navigation aids, i.e. press button "jump to next section",
and the reader will look for the next section marked as <Sect> or something.

Is it difficult to make the mapping user-defineable in the source tex-file? 
Say, like such a command:
\definemapping[
  section=Sect,
  sectiontitle=H
  sectionnumber=H,
  ...
  tablerow=TR
  ...
]

It would then give users the control on what to map onto what, depending
on what kind of documents they create.

>> All in all, these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible PDF
>> documents with context. For those within an organization where
>> accessibility is required legally for all publications, compliance to at
>> least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult
>> these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in
>> the code), but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange
>> for question related to accessibility, this is indeed a major obstacle
>> for several people.
>
>In fact adding pdf tagging to context was rather easy. Some time was 
>So, it's not that difficult to add features, more a matter of priorities 
>and motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by now 
>so I cannot really test).

I can fully understand that such things are not of the highest priority. 
Nevertheless accessibility plays more and more a role, e.g. lately, even
conferences like http://chi2015.acm.org/authors/guide-to-an-accessible-submission/
require accessible pdfs (the workflow they suggest, i.e. tagging a pdf
by acrobat pro after compiling of course doesn't work at all - the generated
structure is useless).

Hence, for some users, it makes all the difference. For example for me and
some other friends, it would allow to change from using Microsoft Word to 
a ConTeXt based workflow. 

cheers

- Dominik
 		 	   		  

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests
@ 2015-07-01  6:08 Christoph Reller
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Reller @ 2015-07-01  6:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ntg-context


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1376 bytes --]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:33 AM,luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>
 wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Dr. Dominik Klein <
> Dominik.Klein@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> > Context is the only Tex-based system that allows to properly tag a pdf.
> > Tagged PDFs are one major requirement for accessibility.
> >
> > Indeed, in several large organizations/universities, accessibility is
> > mandated by law, and this is a major obstacle for using Tex. In practice
> > compliance is often assessed with Acrobat Pro's
> > accessibility checker.
> >
> > Context produces a nice tag-structure, but there are some minor issues
> > that prevent compliance to [1], and hence Acrobat Pro complains during
> the
> > check.
>
> Thank you for the report .
> It would be nice to have a pdf made by context using \nopdfcompression
> that have all these issues together with the report emitted by acrobat.
> Last time I have checked a pfd/a-1a made by context it was all ok, but it
> was time ago and maybe not
> all the features were tested deeply.
>
> --
> luigi
>

Hello and thank you for raising these issues.

Note that there is a free and very good PDF accessibility checker:
http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/pdf-lab/pdf-accessibility-checker-pac.html
You can easily generate a detailed report with this tool. It does, however,
not check for PDF/A-1a conformance.

Cheers, Christoph

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2015-07-06  8:01 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-06-28 10:59 Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Dr. Dominik Klein
2015-06-30  8:32 ` luigi scarso
2015-06-30  9:00 ` Alan BRASLAU
2015-06-30 15:58   ` Dominik Klein
2015-06-30 16:02     ` luigi scarso
2015-07-01 15:51 ` Hans Hagen
2015-07-01 16:47 ` Hans Hagen
2015-07-01 17:02 ` Hans Hagen
2015-07-01  6:08 Christoph Reller
2015-07-03  8:12 Dominik Klein
2015-07-03 17:19 ` Hans Hagen
2015-07-04 16:45   ` Alan BRASLAU
2015-07-05 11:11     ` Hans Hagen
2015-07-05 20:04       ` Dr. Dominik Klein
2015-07-06  8:01         ` Hans Hagen
     [not found] <mailman.1.1435831202.18251.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
2015-07-03 13:16 ` Christoph Reller
2015-07-03 17:09   ` Hans Hagen

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