From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/114319
Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: jbf via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context
Subject: Re: registers, how to ignore quote marks
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 11:30:41 +1100
Message-ID: <5600368b-ae9c-c0be-f9d8-f2490ab1b3c1@gmail.com>
References: <1ef73a6f-533c-a654-121b-36e1bca3917d@gmail.com>
 <80cdf4e3-660b-57e9-70d7-e87f329f794b@fiee.net>
 <37da766a-44e2-9834-f617-a7f9bab1a895@gmail.com>
 <5e335942-fb47-82e9-3152-c9c19aae32a0@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3764389904592888364=="
Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214";
	logging-data="4856"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/91.5.0
Cc: jbf <roma83537@gmail.com>,
 mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>,
 Adam Reviczky <reviczky@gmail.com>
To: Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>
Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sun Jan 30 01:31:12 2022
Return-path: <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl>
Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane-mx.org
Original-Received: from zapf.boekplan.nl ([5.39.185.232] helo=zapf.ntg.nl)
	by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
	(Exim 4.92)
	(envelope-from <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl>)
	id 1nDy7c-0000zY-Le
	for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:31:12 +0100
Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF1628979E;
	Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:54 +0100 (CET)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl
Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1])
	by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 3Tgd_J2QiRKJ; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:52 +0100 (CET)
Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E45289775;
	Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:51 +0100 (CET)
Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800DF289775
 for <ntg-context@ntg.nl>; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:49 +0100 (CET)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl
Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id rbgF2BRynlYp for <ntg-context@ntg.nl>;
 Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:47 +0100 (CET)
Received-SPF: Pass (mailfrom) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.210.176;
 helo=mail-pf1-f176.google.com; envelope-from=roma83537@gmail.com;
 receiver=<UNKNOWN> 
Original-Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com (mail-pf1-f176.google.com
 [209.85.210.176])
 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits))
 (No client certificate requested)
 by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38CD8282AED
 for <ntg-context@ntg.nl>; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:30:47 +0100 (CET)
Original-Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id u130so9570915pfc.2
 for <ntg-context@ntg.nl>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:30:47 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to
 :references:cc:from:in-reply-to;
 bh=CmNhsdsZwrWUCgWHX5OdsSRn3vC72uakpBi/UVhnFHM=;
 b=ePh+43wBZIjnLwD6LyCZlVps2WVdUBlUx94KElIRTii2R33JZXZeFoNOHr/l55PqhX
 a8R4vtln9g/86hJck50oYmYhGra3zCZiNEgpyZLbsjLv1eSsvgE0QLLVLbiQXyUGa2f+
 Lihr9o8dnaIVtZBQJJixfwvMtjLFhULBIX/N3n7KOHnpyguehTnYU6MYE1AbdwgJjf3V
 gr8AhD3N6ceQMIqOkSGoeTYZ7Jwxx5GgmU4WlyzLv5xBV+Ybnkrswfln9VLh/hHX/fpP
 V4YXJCbWmG44LV8mXLKlivxHUBb7qCjkl6nxyAegjosjNa0/St/Vlk94y6vhkOVWN+qW
 z/Dw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject
 :content-language:to:references:cc:from:in-reply-to;
 bh=CmNhsdsZwrWUCgWHX5OdsSRn3vC72uakpBi/UVhnFHM=;
 b=pKvBx+3QlWXm2K5fsqHabCgOlv6NWmaxFoo9ABUdE71Kq2AovHFU+H+vuROxRrVv/+
 Vt5lYA7el4MOLYCoBCpZtRhksPdIX2thDxIKuPW16x116bCwChwXQFegpfSs+0L/OigL
 sW+v3vNDWjSWZKbShz5gEatuJ0y+EKxQMn/VKLUVAbprWV32C/EXuUnTBzOdIP+H5iR4
 qGUYMKuMnJ8YJD1AJTwnOj7EkWnSbYXifqTpjxaV6bTvw46JT4BfgW919GTlK5xxVBSy
 1NvIc54lplICiVYqkVDfuyt6ycU6YGzYp2Ckyu8XJZMixVkZRhl88GasP/inLQOaSPaq
 nhCw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iyIbcJiHMlR0p+HWhViFzduTWcpExG8OMNQEFUCHYZY8tT6wz
 0Svi/UPLcEl1WsXV5hLuFqE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyNEdoPOvtKsO8xehkfQRwnxyfUXSgSDbmQTyJDUxLBQUbLsVJVF1IeA95ra/Lb0Qq0++suQw==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:4852:: with SMTP id x18mr11805367pgk.286.1643502645644; 
 Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:30:45 -0800 (PST)
Original-Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([120.21.109.121])
 by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id oa10sm6638700pjb.27.2022.01.29.16.30.43
 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:30:45 -0800 (PST)
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <5e335942-fb47-82e9-3152-c9c19aae32a0@xs4all.nl>
X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context.ntg.nl>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman/options/ntg-context>,
 <mailto:ntg-context-request@ntg.nl?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/>
List-Post: <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>
List-Help: <mailto:ntg-context-request@ntg.nl?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>,
 <mailto:ntg-context-request@ntg.nl?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl
Original-Sender: "ntg-context" <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl>
Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.context:114319
Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.context/114319>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============3764389904592888364==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------yDnvEuv0Ua5bOUngIqYmLf3C"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------yDnvEuv0Ua5bOUngIqYmLf3C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The several responses to my floundering with the register have been very 
helpful, though I would have to confess that I have ended up 'messing 
with' things (suggested by Hans re the [key]) and getting a satisfactory 
result in almost every case without always understanding why. But I can 
say that I have the 'sorting' issue resolved if it is a main entry, 
including if that entry is surrounded by quote marks or has one part of 
that entry formatted differently (e.g. italics).

But I don't seem able to apply this to subentries! I cannot solve the 
sorting of subentries that have special features (e.g. I might have 
needed italics for part of a subentry, or the subentry is surrounded by 
quote marks).

Here are my two situations (and in each case they appear out of 
alphabetical order in the subentry list):

1. \index{animals+‘special kinds’}: in this case ‘special kinds’ appears 
in the subentry list at the bottom of the list, after one that starts 
with 'v'. I 'messed with' this by adding keys, e.g., \index[Animals] 
etc. but  the item disappeared from the index altogether.

2. \index{Plenary Council+{\it periti} (experts)}: in this case it is 
the italicised /periti/ that appears out of place, after the letter 'i' 
rather than after 'p'. Again I tried putting various keys but this did 
not help.

I guess my confusion is this: I assumed that the [key] establishes the 
literal string which determines sort order. That seems to be the case 
for a main entry. How do I get it to work for a subentry?

Julian

On 29/1/22 21:39, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 1/29/2022 11:02 AM, jbf via ntg-context wrote:
>> Thanks for this response. I'll have to work on this (but tomorrow... 
>> it's late at night for me at the moment). I can see part of what you 
>> mean: I can use, for example \index[myindex]{\it Book title} (Book 
>> Author) and get the correct result, but not sorted properly, so I 
>> have to understand how, as you say, to 'set the sort entry to the 
>> unformatted version' which is not clear to me at the moment. I'll 
>> tackle it on the morrow when I'm thinking more clearly!
> there is key and entry with key between []
>
> when sorting, the key wins but because there can be duplicates the 
> entry itself is also part of the final sort key
>
> the accumulates sort key is sanitized and after that sorting happens 
> in several stages (these can be defined / adapted) according to 
> language, taking numbers into account and finally using the unicode 
> ordering ...
>
> you can fool the system by messing with the [key]
>
> it's not the easiest subsystem (but it has a long history ... as with 
> many subsystems the principles are not much different than mkii and 
> the code seldom changes but of course evolved)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
--------------yDnvEuv0Ua5bOUngIqYmLf3C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>The several responses to my floundering with the register have
      been very helpful, though I would have to confess that I have
      ended up 'messing with' things (suggested by Hans re the [key])
      and getting a satisfactory result in almost every case without
      always understanding why. But I can say that I have the 'sorting'
      issue resolved if it is a main entry, including if that entry is
      surrounded by quote marks or has one part of that entry formatted
      differently (e.g. italics).<br>
    </p>
    <p>But I don't seem able to apply this to subentries! I cannot solve
      the sorting of subentries that have special features (e.g. I might
      have needed italics for part of a subentry, or the subentry is
      surrounded by quote marks). <br>
    </p>
    <p>Here are my two situations (and in each case they appear out of
      alphabetical order in the subentry list):</p>
    <p>1. \index{animals+‘special kinds’}: in this case ‘special kinds’
      appears in the subentry list at the bottom of the list, after one
      that starts with 'v'. I 'messed with' this by adding keys, e.g.,
      \index[Animals] etc. but  the item disappeared from the index
      altogether.<br>
    </p>
    <p>2. \index{Plenary Council+{\it periti} (experts)}: in this case
      it is the italicised <i>periti</i> that appears out of place,
      after the letter 'i' rather than after 'p'. Again I tried putting
      various keys but this did not help.</p>
    <p>I guess my confusion is this: I assumed that the [key]
      establishes the literal string which determines sort order. That
      seems to be the case for a main entry. How do I get it to work for
      a subentry?</p>
    <p>Julian<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/1/22 21:39, Hans Hagen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:5e335942-fb47-82e9-3152-c9c19aae32a0@xs4all.nl">On
      1/29/2022 11:02 AM, jbf via ntg-context wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Thanks for this response. I'll have to
        work on this (but tomorrow... it's late at night for me at the
        moment). I can see part of what you mean: I can use, for example
        \index[myindex]{\it Book title} (Book Author) and get the
        correct result, but not sorted properly, so I have to understand
        how, as you say, to 'set the sort entry to the unformatted
        version' which is not clear to me at the moment. I'll tackle it
        on the morrow when I'm thinking more clearly!
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      there is key and entry with key between []
      <br>
      <br>
      when sorting, the key wins but because there can be duplicates the
      entry itself is also part of the final sort key
      <br>
      <br>
      the accumulates sort key is sanitized and after that sorting
      happens in several stages (these can be defined / adapted)
      according to language, taking numbers into account and finally
      using the unicode ordering ...
      <br>
      <br>
      you can fool the system by messing with the [key]
      <br>
      <br>
      it's not the easiest subsystem (but it has a long history ... as
      with many subsystems the principles are not much different than
      mkii and the code seldom changes but of course evolved)
      <br>
      <br>
      Hans
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      -----------------------------------------------------------------
      <br>
                                                Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
      <br>
                    Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      <br>
             tel: 038 477 53 69 | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.pragma-ade.nl">www.pragma-ade.nl</a> | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.pragma-pod.nl">www.pragma-pod.nl</a>
      <br>
      -----------------------------------------------------------------
      <br>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

--------------yDnvEuv0Ua5bOUngIqYmLf3C--

--===============3764389904592888364==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline
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--===============3764389904592888364==--