Re: PDF/UA Support

Re: PDF/UA Support

[Christoph Reller]

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On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:35:46 -0400 <andrew.dunning@utoronto.ca> wrote:

> > On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> >
> > Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only
> acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an option
> as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger filesize)
> that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows for print, but
> enabling is easy with
> >
> > \setuptagging[state=start]
>
> Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect of
> `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate options?
>
Hi,
Please note that the PDFs produced by ConTeXt when tagging is enabled are
still some steps short of being PDF/UA compliant. You can check this with
the freely available "PDF Accessibility Checker". (Just google for it.)
Nevertheless, ConTeXt is the only TeX-based option that supports PDF
tagging and it does a good job - thank you Hans for your efforts.
Regards,
Christoph Reller

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[luigi scarso]

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On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Christoph Reller <
christoph.reller@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:35:46 -0400 <andrew.dunning@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>> > On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> >
>> > Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only
>> acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an option
>> as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger filesize)
>> that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows for print, but
>> enabling is easy with
>> >
>> > \setuptagging[state=start]
>>
>> Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect of
>> `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate options?
>>
> Hi,
> Please note that the PDFs produced by ConTeXt when tagging is enabled are
> still some steps short of being PDF/UA compliant. You can check this with
> the freely available "PDF Accessibility Checker". (Just google for it.)
>
>


http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/pdf-lab/pdf-accessibility-checker-pac.html

-- 
luigi

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/20/2015 10:10 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Christoph Reller
> <christoph..reller@gmail.com <mailto:christoph.reller@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:35:46 -0400 <andrew.dunning@utoronto.ca
>     <mailto:andrew.dunning@utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
>         > On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote:
>         >
>         > Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger filesize) that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows for print, but enabling is easy with
>         >
>         > \setuptagging[state=start]
>
>         Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the
>         effect of `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the
>         appropriate options?
>
>     Hi,
>     Please note that the PDFs produced by ConTeXt when tagging is
>     enabled are still some steps short of being PDF/UA compliant. You
>     can check this with the freely available "PDF Accessibility
>     Checker". (Just google for it.)
>
>
>
> http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/pdf-lab/pdf-accessibility-checker-pac.html

but no public spec ... just a to be payed for iso one ..

(and i don't have the latest acrobat pro either)

Hans

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:29 +0200 schrieb luigi scarso:

>>  Please note that the PDFs produced by ConTeXt when tagging is enabled are
>> still some steps short of being PDF/UA compliant. You can check this with
>> the freely available "PDF Accessibility Checker". (Just google for it.)

> http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/pdf-lab/pdf-accessibility-checker-pac.html

After TUG 2015 I played a bit around with PAC2 and found a bug: The
application crashes if the pdf contains a type1 font. For context
this shouldn't be a real problem but you can test it with

\font\test=cmr10
\starttext
\test
hello World
\stoptext

(I reported the problem but don't know if they will do something
about it).

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:31:05 +0200
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> but no public spec ... just a to be payed for iso one ..

Is the following useful?
http://www.aiim.org/Research-and-Publications/standards/committees/PDFUA/

Alan
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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/20/2015 3:37 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:31:05 +0200
> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> but no public spec ... just a to be payed for iso one ..
>
> Is the following useful?
> http://www.aiim.org/Research-and-Publications/standards/committees/PDFUA/

no fun reading from a web page ... btw, most of this tag stuff is rather 
old already and in this big pdf standard (1.7) ... so i don't expect to 
many issues (probably a few extra keys in the catalog and so)

Peter will look into it.

Hans

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Andrew Dunning]

> On 20 Oct 2015, at 5:32 PM, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> You are the first user of this feature, so your job will be to test it
> properly, once it's implemented. The programming work will exclusively
> be done by Hans. All I do is find out the formal definitions of the
> standard (needed XMP entries, supported PDF features, etc.). You and I
> do the boring part and he has all the fun ;-)

Brilliant; I have some friends who work for the Ontario School for the Blind, so that should be quite feasible. Thanks again!

All best,

Andrew

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Peter Rolf]

Am 20.10.2015 um 20:03 schrieb Andrew Dunning:
> 
>> On 20 Oct 2015, at 9:26 AM, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> Will look into it (sorry, but I am kind of ignorant to new standards,
>> that I don't use myself) :D
> 
> That’s hugely appreciated; I am not much of a programmer, but let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
>

You are the first user of this feature, so your job will be to test it
properly, once it's implemented. The programming work will exclusively
be done by Hans. All I do is find out the formal definitions of the
standard (needed XMP entries, supported PDF features, etc.). You and I
do the boring part and he has all the fun ;-)


> All best,
> 
> Andrew Dunning
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Andrew Dunning]

> On 20 Oct 2015, at 9:26 AM, Peter Rolf <indiego@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> Will look into it (sorry, but I am kind of ignorant to new standards,
> that I don't use myself) :D

That’s hugely appreciated; I am not much of a programmer, but let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

All best,

Andrew Dunning
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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Peter Rolf]

Am 20.10.2015 um 09:12 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> On 10/20/2015 4:35 AM, Andrew Dunning wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only
>>> acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an
>>> option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much
>>> larger filesize) that makes no sense when proofing documents and in
>>> workflows for print, but enabling is easy with
>>>
>>> \setuptagging[state=start]
>>
>> Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect
>> of `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate
>> options?
> 
> you have to discuss that with Peter Rolf as he is the one who keeps an
> eye on all possible combinations of settings for pdf standards (and
> checks with validators)
>

Will look into it (sorry, but I am kind of ignorant to new standards,
that I don't use myself) :D

I can only hope that the validator (@Luigi: thanks for the link) does a
good job, as my ancient Acrobat Pro 9 doesn't know the standard. It will
also take some time to gather the (free available) information, but I
don't see a general problem now. I'll report back in a few days.


>>> Btw, this feature relates to export to XML. Personally I wonder why
>>> this UA is such a hype, probably because publishers are reluctant to
>>> embed the document source in the pdf, which make much more sense when
>>> alternative rendering is needed.
>>
>> I agree that I would prefer to see PDFs given alongside good HTML, but
>> the reality is that this will not happen for some time to come, and in
>> the meantime PDFs remain inaccessible to anyone with a print
>> disability (and inconvenient for the rest of us). If we can improve
>> this situation, it is only right that we do so. If we can in the
>> process encourage wider adoption of ConTeXt, even better.
> 
> an interesting side track would be a set of alternative styles that can
> be used: b/w, larger sizes, opendyslectic fonts, etc ... so, to kind of
> set a standard of producing several versions of one document
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/20/2015 4:35 AM, Andrew Dunning wrote:
>
>> On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger filesize) that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows for print, but enabling is easy with
>>
>> \setuptagging[state=start]
>
> Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect of `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate options?

you have to discuss that with Peter Rolf as he is the one who keeps an 
eye on all possible combinations of settings for pdf standards (and 
checks with validators)

>> Btw, this feature relates to export to XML. Personally I wonder why this UA is such a hype, probably because publishers are reluctant to embed the document source in the pdf, which make much more sense when alternative rendering is needed.
>
> I agree that I would prefer to see PDFs given alongside good HTML, but the reality is that this will not happen for some time to come, and in the meantime PDFs remain inaccessible to anyone with a print disability (and inconvenient for the rest of us). If we can improve this situation, it is only right that we do so. If we can in the process encourage wider adoption of ConTeXt, even better.

an interesting side track would be a set of alternative styles that can 
be used: b/w, larger sizes, opendyslectic fonts, etc ... so, to kind of 
set a standard of producing several versions of one document

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/20/2015 5:11 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

> My understanding of PDF/UA is a very valid requirement to make texts
> accessible through standard tools, in particular but not limited to
> users having visual deficiencies, for example. This is the reason, not
> hype, behind the US government pushing this standard.

Sure, I understand that, but from what I've seen as demos I'm far from 
convinced. If indeed that is the reason, then a better 'demand' would be 
to provide several versions of the pdf (if rendering i.e. placement on 
the page is important), for instance: b/w : for colorblind, large size 
fonts, less fancy layouts etc .. in fact that would be an easy 
requirement to meet.

The strange thing is that this tagged pdf standard does not have 
provision to embed the whole source (in xml) and point to nodes, which 
would be much more interesting (but not for publishers of course).

It just puzzles me why solutions for problems need to be complex. Or to 
put it otherwise: if I had a disability I would consider this solution a 
crappy poor mans one, not a real one.

> Alternative rendering (via web browsers, for example) will remain
> inferior for most uses as it will not benefit from much of what the TeX
> engine can produce, so this cannot really be the motivation.

It depends, providing an html file alongside even if it looks worse is 
still better than some synthetic voice trying to make something of the 
semi-structured content. In fact, I can imagine serious documents to 
have proper audio embedded, done in a way that does justice to the problem.

Anyway ... we do support it, but on your bsd system: what viewer do you 
use that supports it? We have tags for years and can't even test it 
properly (ok, that has been the same for more pdf stuff).

> For reasons of Universal Accessibility, it would be a good idea for
> ConTeXt to indeed activate tagging by default. The argument of runtime
> and filesize (when proofing and in automatic workflows) is somewhat
> weak for one can ALWAYS deactivate this tagging for such cases. May I
> suggest that Hans reconsider his stand on this issue for the sake of
> promotion of ConTeXt as a very advanced typesetting tool.

our main own application of context is relative fast processing of 
complex xml document and tagging is adding a lot of overhead

interesting is btw that pdf has all kind of compression and that has not 
always influenced its design in a positive way, but with tagging the 
file can become many times larger which is no fun (esp when one produces 
huge pdf's then need to go over the web)

there are not many cases where in context we changed the default and 
it's generally a bad idea as then one needs to go over all workflows and 
en/disable things

of course the user can easily enable it on his system: just drop a 
cont-loc.mkiv file in your texmf-local/tex/context/user path and enable 
it there

Hans

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Alan BRASLAU]

My understanding of PDF/UA is a very valid requirement to make texts
accessible through standard tools, in particular but not limited to
users having visual deficiencies, for example. This is the reason, not
hype, behind the US government pushing this standard.

Alternative rendering (via web browsers, for example) will remain
inferior for most uses as it will not benefit from much of what the TeX
engine can produce, so this cannot really be the motivation.

For reasons of Universal Accessibility, it would be a good idea for
ConTeXt to indeed activate tagging by default. The argument of runtime
and filesize (when proofing and in automatic workflows) is somewhat
weak for one can ALWAYS deactivate this tagging for such cases. May I
suggest that Hans reconsider his stand on this issue for the sake of
promotion of ConTeXt as a very advanced typesetting tool.

Alan


On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:35:46 -0400
Andrew Dunning <andrew.dunning@utoronto.ca> wrote:

> > On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> > 
> > Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although
> > only acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not
> > really an option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime
> > and much larger filesize) that makes no sense when proofing
> > documents and in workflows for print, but enabling is easy with
> > 
> > \setuptagging[state=start]  
> 
> Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect
> of `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate
> options?
> 
> 
> > Btw, this feature relates to export to XML. Personally I wonder why
> > this UA is such a hype, probably because publishers are reluctant
> > to embed the document source in the pdf, which make much more sense
> > when alternative rendering is needed.  
> 
> I agree that I would prefer to see PDFs given alongside good HTML,
> but the reality is that this will not happen for some time to come,
> and in the meantime PDFs remain inaccessible to anyone with a print
> disability (and inconvenient for the rest of us). If we can improve
> this situation, it is only right that we do so. If we can in the
> process encourage wider adoption of ConTeXt, even better.
> 
> All best,
> 
> Andrew Dunning
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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Andrew Dunning]

> On 19 Oct 2015, at 5:33 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger filesize) that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows for print, but enabling is easy with
> 
> \setuptagging[state=start]

Thank you! Would it also be possible to have something to the effect of `\setupbackend[format={pdf/ua:2014}` to set up the appropriate options?


> Btw, this feature relates to export to XML. Personally I wonder why this UA is such a hype, probably because publishers are reluctant to embed the document source in the pdf, which make much more sense when alternative rendering is needed.

I agree that I would prefer to see PDFs given alongside good HTML, but the reality is that this will not happen for some time to come, and in the meantime PDFs remain inaccessible to anyone with a print disability (and inconvenient for the rest of us). If we can improve this situation, it is only right that we do so. If we can in the process encourage wider adoption of ConTeXt, even better.

All best,

Andrew Dunning

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Re: PDF/UA Support

[Hans Hagen]

On 10/19/2015 5:50 PM, Andrew Dunning wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> I am beginning to see increasing need for PDF/UA (ISO 14289) files. Earlier this year, the US Access Board announced an update to the rules for the accessibility of electronic documents produced by the government that embraces the standard, which I expect will make it much more prominent.
>
> XeTeX cannot produce PDF/UA, and it seems unlikely that it ever will, but unless I am misreading the documentation it appears that ConTeXt has already implemented the necessary functionality. If this is so, it would be helpful to have a page discussing its use in parallel to <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/PDF/A>, and I would even suggest making PDF/UA the default for documents that do not have conflicting commands. The PDF Association seems to be pushing this as the future of the format; if this is so, this is an opportunity to bring ConTeXt to much greater prominence.

Indeed context supports tagged pdf already for a while, although only 
acrobat can do something with it. Making it default is not really an 
option as there is overhead involved (a bit more runtime and much larger 
filesize) that makes no sense when proofing documents and in workflows 
for print, but enabling is easy with

\setuptagging[state=start]

Btw, this feature relates to export to XML. Personally I wonder why this 
UA is such a hype, probably because publishers are reluctant to embed 
the document source in the pdf, which make much more sense when 
alternative rendering is needed.

Feel free to add information to the wiki (I have no time for that myself 
now). Probably much that applies to the export also applies to tagging.

Hans

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PDF/UA Support

[Andrew Dunning]

Dear list,

I am beginning to see increasing need for PDF/UA (ISO 14289) files. Earlier this year, the US Access Board announced an update to the rules for the accessibility of electronic documents produced by the government that embraces the standard, which I expect will make it much more prominent.

XeTeX cannot produce PDF/UA, and it seems unlikely that it ever will, but unless I am misreading the documentation it appears that ConTeXt has already implemented the necessary functionality. If this is so, it would be helpful to have a page discussing its use in parallel to <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/PDF/A>, and I would even suggest making PDF/UA the default for documents that do not have conflicting commands. The PDF Association seems to be pushing this as the future of the format; if this is so, this is an opportunity to bring ConTeXt to much greater prominence.

All best,

Andrew Dunning
PhD Candidate
Centre for Medieval Studies
University of Toronto
http://andrewdunning.ca

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