* Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
@ 2015-11-09 11:39 Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 12:13 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-11-09 11:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
In this example there is no kerning and no ligatures in the math:
\starttext
WAiff $\mfunction{WAiff}$
\stoptext
This is a different behaviour than with legacy math fonts.
A question about this has been asked some month ago on tex.sx
(http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/252493/ligatures-are-not-used-in-opentype-maths-families).
The problem (or feature) exist also with xetex.
With luatex one can avoid to loose the kerning by loading as math
roman font a font in mode base
(http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/277362/lualatex-no-kerning-within-operatorname-when-not-loading-lmodern-package/277395#277395,
I have no idea how to do this in context).
Is this a luatex/xetex bug? Or a feature? How could one enable
kerning and/or ligatures without going back to base mode?
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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* Re: Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
2015-11-09 11:39 Kerning and ligatures in math roman font Ulrike Fischer
@ 2015-11-09 12:13 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 13:06 ` Ulrike Fischer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-11-09 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On 11/9/2015 12:39 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> In this example there is no kerning and no ligatures in the math:
>
> \starttext
> WAiff $\mfunction{WAiff}$
> \stoptext
>
> This is a different behaviour than with legacy math fonts.
depends what legacy is ...
> A question about this has been asked some month ago on tex.sx
> (http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/252493/ligatures-are-not-used-in-opentype-maths-families).
> The problem (or feature) exist also with xetex.
>
> With luatex one can avoid to loose the kerning by loading as math
> roman font a font in mode base
> (http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/277362/lualatex-no-kerning-within-operatorname-when-not-loading-lmodern-package/277395#277395,
> I have no idea how to do this in context).
>
> Is this a luatex/xetex bug? Or a feature? How could one enable
> kerning and/or ligatures without going back to base mode?
most math fonts don't have ligatures etc ... in fact, as ligatures are a
language/script related feature and math is the script it makes not much
sense either
in context you can do:
\setupmathematics
[functionstyle=normal]
which will use a box which then will trigger text fonts
Hans
--
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
2015-11-09 12:13 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-11-09 13:06 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 13:22 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-11-09 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Am Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:13:12 +0100 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> In this example there is no kerning and no ligatures in the math:
>>
>> \starttext
>> WAiff $\mfunction{WAiff}$
>> \stoptext
>>
>> This is a different behaviour than with legacy math fonts.
>
> depends what legacy is ...
I meant the fonts you would get with plaintex or pdflatex.
>> A question about this has been asked some month ago on tex.sx
>> (http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/252493/ligatures-are-not-used-in-opentype-maths-families).
>> The problem (or feature) exist also with xetex.
>>
>> With luatex one can avoid to loose the kerning by loading as math
>> roman font a font in mode base
>> (http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/277362/lualatex-no-kerning-within-operatorname-when-not-loading-lmodern-package/277395#277395,
>> I have no idea how to do this in context).
>>
>> Is this a luatex/xetex bug? Or a feature? How could one enable
>> kerning and/or ligatures without going back to base mode?
> most math fonts don't have ligatures etc ... in fact, as ligatures are a
> language/script related feature and math is the script it makes not much
> sense either
But the plaintex and latex examples on tex.SX don't use a math font
for operatornames like \sin or for \mathrm (which seems to be
\mfunction in context). It is a text font and it has ligatures and
kerning informations, but they are not used in math.
Doesn't use context for \mfunction a text font too? I thought so
because it has kerning when used outside math:
\starttext
\mfunction{WAiff}
$\mfunction{WAiff}$
\stoptext
Also bad kerning in operator names is a nuisance. I don't think that
the default result of
\definemathcommand[VA][nolop]{\mfunction{VA}} is good looking.
> in context you can do:
>
> \setupmathematics
> [functionstyle=normal]
>
> which will use a box which then will trigger text fonts
Yes, one workaround is to quit math mode. The other to use fonts in
mode "base". But I would like to understand why workarounds are
needed at all.
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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* Re: Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
2015-11-09 13:06 ` Ulrike Fischer
@ 2015-11-09 13:22 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 13:59 ` Ulrike Fischer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-11-09 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On 11/9/2015 2:06 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> Yes, one workaround is to quit math mode. The other to use fonts in
> mode "base". But I would like to understand why workarounds are
> needed at all.
because opentype math fonts are just math fonts (simple for text, rich
for math)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
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* Re: Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
2015-11-09 13:22 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2015-11-09 13:59 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 15:44 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-11-09 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Am Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:22:45 +0100 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> Yes, one workaround is to quit math mode. The other to use fonts in
>> mode "base". But I would like to understand why workarounds are
>> needed at all.
> because opentype math fonts are just math fonts (simple for text, rich
> for math)
But there is no math font involved. This latex example
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\begin{document}
VA $\mathrm{VA}$
\end{document}
uses exactly one font:
<d:/texlive/2015/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/lm/lmroman10-regular.otf>
But outside math it is kerned, inside not.
And this plain tex example doesn't use math fonts either.
\input luaotfload.sty
\font\Urm=Arial:mode=node;script=latn;language=DFLT;+tlig;+trep;
\textfont0\Urm
\Urm VA $\fam0 VA$ %no kerning in math
\font\Urmbase=Arial:mode=base;script=latn;language=DFLT;+tlig;+trep;
\textfont0\Urmbase
\Urm VA $\fam0 VA$ %kerning in math
\bye
(I used Arial so that one can see clearly that a text font is used)
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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* Re: Kerning and ligatures in math roman font
2015-11-09 13:59 ` Ulrike Fischer
@ 2015-11-09 15:44 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 17:10 ` Ulrike Fischer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-11-09 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On 11/9/2015 2:59 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> Am Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:22:45 +0100 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>
>>> Yes, one workaround is to quit math mode. The other to use fonts in
>>> mode "base". But I would like to understand why workarounds are
>>> needed at all.
>
>> because opentype math fonts are just math fonts (simple for text, rich
>> for math)
>
> But there is no math font involved. This latex example
>
> \documentclass{article}
> \usepackage{fontspec}
> \begin{document}
> VA $\mathrm{VA}$
> \end{document}
>
> uses exactly one font:
>
> <d:/texlive/2015/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/lm/lmroman10-regular.otf>
>
> But outside math it is kerned, inside not.
>
> And this plain tex example doesn't use math fonts either.
>
> \input luaotfload.sty
>
> \font\Urm=Arial:mode=node;script=latn;language=DFLT;+tlig;+trep;
> \textfont0\Urm
> \Urm VA $\fam0 VA$ %no kerning in math
>
> \font\Urmbase=Arial:mode=base;script=latn;language=DFLT;+tlig;+trep;
> \textfont0\Urmbase
> \Urm VA $\fam0 VA$ %kerning in math
> \bye
>
> (I used Arial so that one can see clearly that a text font is used)
you don't enable kerning but anyhow, here is a context example:
\usemodule[oldotf]
\starttext
\showfontkerns
\font\Urm=arial:mode=node;+tlig;+trep;+kern;
\font\Urm=lmroman10-regular:mode=base;+kern;
\textfont0\Urm
\Urm VA $\fam0 VA$
\stoptext
basemode should work (no node mode in math but features are normal
simple ... keep in mind that node lists in math are quite different)
Hans
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
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2015-11-09 11:39 Kerning and ligatures in math roman font Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 12:13 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 13:06 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 13:22 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 13:59 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-11-09 15:44 ` Hans Hagen
2015-11-09 17:10 ` Ulrike Fischer
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