* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” [not found] <mailman.1.1422442801.15564.ntg-context@ntg.nl> @ 2015-01-29 9:29 ` Robert Blackstone 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert Blackstone @ 2015-01-29 9:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2910 bytes --] On 28 Jan 2015, at 12:00 , Keith Schultz <keithjschultz@icloud.com> wrote > > We could simply add all kinds of switches and coding to help this process, > but in the end we end up with an over complicated format that grows into a monster! and > > I as an old school type and database person would think it far better, to take > a more pratical approach. Most probably I’m not qualified to seriously discuss Bibliography matters in ConTeXt, but wat Keith has written here appeals to me. It would probably be OK to try and control all and everything in a Bibliography with commands and codes if there were only a few standard ways of presenting a bibliography. But that is not the case, even if most people seem to use apa-style. What should one do with an old book, of which there are several “facsimile editions” and an English translation, and you were required, by the publisher or the university, to render it in the Bibliography in the following way: Gasparini, Francesco, L’Armonico pratico al cimbalo (Venice, 1709); repr. (New York, 1967); repr. (Bologna, 2001); trans. Frank Stillings as The Practical Harmonist at the Harpsichord (New Haven, CT, 1963) or, other example: Buchner, Hans, Das Fundamentbuch (c1525), CH-Bmi, MS F.I.8; ME: in Carl Paesler, ‘Fundamentbuch von Hans von Constanz, Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des Orgelspiels im 16. Jahrhundert’, VMw, 5 (1889), 1-192 ? With a Bibliography to make of about 500 items, for a PhD thesis, of which more than half were of this kind, I gave up on all sophisticated tools of BibTeX and exclusively used the format Booklet, with Author, Title, City and PubYear, generated a .bbl and edited that to give me the correct form. And, yes, I had to tweak the apa -style a little but that part was easy. The two examples are in the .bbl-file as follows: \startpublication[k=Gasparini:2001ublt,t=booklet, a={{{Gasparini, Francesco}}},y=2001, n=73,s={Gas}01] \author[]{}[]{}{{Gasparini, Francesco}} \pubyear{1963} \title{{L'armonico pratico al cimbalo {\em (Venice, 1708); repr.~(New York, 1967); repr. (Bologna, 2001); trans.~by Frank Stillings~as} The Practical Harmonist at the Harpsichord}} \city{New Haven, CT} \stoppublication \startpublication[k=Buchner:1525fblt,t=booklet, a={{{Buchner, Hans}}},y=, n=39,s={Buc}] \author[]{}[]{}{{Buchner, Hans}} \title{{{Das Fundamentbuch} {\em ({\em c}1525), CH-Bmi, MS F.I.8; ME: in Carl Paesler, \quote{Fundamentbuch von Hans von Constanz, Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des Orgelspiels im 16.~Jahrhundert}}, VMw, {\em 5 (1889), 1-192}}} \stoppublication Primitive? Certainly. But it is straightforward, very flexible and it works. I hope of course that the new Bibliography tool will be very powerful, but I also hope that it will remain possible, in ConTeXt, to keep doing things in a simple manner. Best regards, Robert Blackstone [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 4171 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bibliography again: “von” and “van” @ 2015-01-27 18:20 Jörg Weger 2015-01-27 19:16 ` Keith Schultz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-27 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined. Greetings Jörg ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 18:20 Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-27 19:16 ` Keith Schultz 2015-01-27 20:11 ` Jörg Weger 2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Schultz @ 2015-01-27 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Jörg, Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from! Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“. It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it! So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. regards Keith > Am 27.01.2015 um 19:20 schrieb Jörg Weger <joerg73.muc@googlemail.com>: > > The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined. > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 19:16 ` Keith Schultz @ 2015-01-27 20:11 ` Jörg Weger 2015-01-28 12:00 ` Ulrike Fischer 2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-27 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Keith, how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have only one field for author/editor (serious question!)? I normally put the names uninverted but inverting Goethe’s name in the BibTeX file didn’t change anything. As far as I understood ConTeXt can handle inverted and uninverted names in BibTeX name fields equally well. There is something in the default mechanism that interpretes the “von” as part of the surname. What I was proposing was a way to manually switch to another mode where the “von” is treated as an attribute on a by-case-base–just like you can switch between “authoryear” and “authoryears” as I learned today. Greetings Jörg On 27.01.2015 20:16, Keith Schultz wrote: > Hi Jörg, > > Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always > noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from! > > Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. > He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“. > > It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it! > > So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. > > regards > Keith >> Am 27.01.2015 um 19:20 schrieb Jörg Weger <joerg73.muc@googlemail.com>: >> >> The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined. >> > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 20:11 ` Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-28 12:00 ` Ulrike Fischer 2015-01-29 12:06 ` BPJ 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-01-28 12:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Am Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:11:03 +0100 schrieb Jörg Weger: > how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have > only one field for author/editor (serious question!)? In biblatex/biber you could setup the entries like this: @book{goethe, author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang}, title={Faust}, year={1775} } @book{halen, author={van Halen, Edward}, title={Title}, year={1775}, options = {useprefix=true} } Then you get "Goethe" and "van Halen". (It is not a perfect solution: assume a book from Goethe and van Halen then you would have to use braces to save the "van": author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang and {van Halen}, Edward}, -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-28 12:00 ` Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-01-29 12:06 ` BPJ 2015-01-29 12:53 ` Ulrike Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: BPJ @ 2015-01-29 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: news3, mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1644 bytes --] How is a prefix identified as such with this technique? Is there a hardcoded list somewhere or is it "name begins with a 'word' in lowercase". IMHO it would be desirable that the prefix itself could be specified in a field. onsdag 28 januari 2015 skrev Ulrike Fischer <news3@nililand.de>: > Am Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:11:03 +0100 schrieb Jörg Weger: > > > how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have > > only one field for author/editor (serious question!)? > > In biblatex/biber you could setup the entries like this: > > @book{goethe, > author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang}, > title={Faust}, > year={1775} > } > > @book{halen, > author={van Halen, Edward}, > title={Title}, > year={1775}, > options = {useprefix=true} > } > > Then you get "Goethe" and "van Halen". > > (It is not a perfect solution: assume a book from Goethe and van > Halen then you would have to use braces to save the "van": > author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang and {van Halen}, Edward}, > > > > -- > Ulrike Fischer > http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <javascript:;> / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2420 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-29 12:06 ` BPJ @ 2015-01-29 12:53 ` Ulrike Fischer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Ulrike Fischer @ 2015-01-29 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Am Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:06:59 +0100 schrieb BPJ: > How is a prefix identified as such with this technique? biber uses the btparse library (http://search.cpan.org/~ambs/Text-BibTeX-0.70/btparse/doc/bt_split_names.pod) and prefixes ("von-Parts") are more or less identifyed by lowercase letters (as in bibtex, see also tamethebeast.pdf). I actually run once into a problem with a lowercase name which biber didn't like: https://github.com/plk/biber/issues/43 There are some tricks, like \uppercase{d}, commands, braces, which one can use to fine-tune the name parsing. > Is there a hardcoded list somewhere or is it "name begins with a > 'word' in lowercase". IMHO it would be desirable that the prefix > itself could be specified in a field. Well the main problem is that authors are name *lists*, and that there can be more then one name list in an entry. But biblatex is extensible. You can, if you want, define a new field say "authorprefixes={de,von,none,Bbla}" and then write suitable macros that uses this prefixes instead of the one parsed from the name. But I doubt that it is really needed. One shouldn't overcomplicate a system only to catch every special case. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 19:16 ` Keith Schultz 2015-01-27 20:11 ` Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU 2015-01-28 4:51 ` Jörg Weger 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-01-27 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote: > Hi Jörg, > > Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always > noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from! > > Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. > He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“. > > It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it! you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work > So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole von business is on our agenda Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen @ 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU 2015-01-28 5:03 ` Jörg Weger ` (2 more replies) 2015-01-28 4:51 ` Jörg Weger 1 sibling, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2015-01-28 3:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: ntg-context I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In Spanish, we have other practice. One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} This allows the author to use a free form for each component without resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of the use of the language field (or setting). Alan On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:50:44 +0100 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote: > > Hi Jörg, > > > > Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility > > particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility > > particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor > > came from! > > > > Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. > > Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be > > listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“. > > > > It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so > > there is no switch for it! > > you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might > work > > > So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries > > properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. > > indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format > > btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author > get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most > magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if > needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but > anyway this whole von business is on our agenda > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an > entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : > http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : > http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : > http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ -- Alan Braslau CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC CNRS URA 2464 Orme des Merisiers 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15 fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86 mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU @ 2015-01-28 5:03 ` Jörg Weger 2015-01-28 10:15 ` Keith Schultz 2015-01-31 10:18 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-28 5:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users As I have already replied to Hans’ post, I don’t mind using the “double braces solution” as an easy workaround to distinguish German “vons” and Dutch “vans”. But I am not sure if that solution solves the problems with French and Spanish name attributes as well. Greetings Jörg On 28.01.2015 04:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote: > I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", > in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a > comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often > depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In > Spanish, we have other practice. > > One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex > field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended > the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: > author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} > This allows the author to use a free form for each component without > resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How > these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. > Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of > the use of the language field (or setting). > > Alan > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:50:44 +0100 > Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > >> On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote: >>> Hi Jörg, >>> >>> Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility >>> particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility >>> particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor >>> came from! >>> >>> Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. >>> Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be >>> listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“. >>> >>> It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so >>> there is no switch for it! >> >> you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might >> work >> >>> So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries >>> properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. >> >> indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format >> >> btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author >> get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most >> magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if >> needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but >> anyway this whole von business is on our agenda >> >> Hans >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE >> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands >> tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com >> | www.pragma-pod.nl >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an >> entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : >> http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : >> http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : >> http://contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU 2015-01-28 5:03 ` Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-28 10:15 ` Keith Schultz 2015-01-31 10:18 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Schultz @ 2015-01-28 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Hans Hagen Hi Alan, Hans, As you say the treatmeant of the „particles“ are complicated. They depend on „citizenship“, period, country of title, true nobility or ennoblement, the region of a country one comes, and form of the particle (abbreviation, captilization). Practically all of this information is missing in the a normal bibliography. Sure we can try to guess some from publication date, language, etc. But, these are very in accurate, and will not give decent results. Now, I am all for making as easy as possible for the user and have a system do as much inference as possible. We could simply add all kinds of switches and coding to help this process, but in the end we end up with an over complicated format that grows into a monster! I as an old school type and database person would think it far better, to take a more pratical approach. Set up the inference rules for the names after 1920. Most of the ambiguity is gone for most of the western world to my knowledge! (I can not say much about the rest, we have not even talked about them). We can add fields or a mechanisms where the author of a bibliography can set display form, sort form etc. that are used. Yes, this does put the burden on the author, but is the cleanest and most flexible way to do it. Or implement a mechanism where the Author of the bibliography can write a SETUP/filter for the format of the author field and add a field to the format called authorfieldtype. this way. I believe this would be the ConTeXt way. regards Keith. > Am 28.01.2015 um 04:10 schrieb Alan BRASLAU <alan.braslau@cea.fr>: > > I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", > in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a > comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often > depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In > Spanish, we have other practice. > > One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex > field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended > the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: > author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} > This allows the author to use a free form for each component without > resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How > these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. > Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of > the use of the language field (or setting). > > Alan > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU 2015-01-28 5:03 ` Jörg Weger 2015-01-28 10:15 ` Keith Schultz @ 2015-01-31 10:18 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2015-01-31 10:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alan BRASLAU; +Cc: ntg-context On 1/28/2015 4:10 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote: > I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", > in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a > comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often > depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In > Spanish, we have other practice. > > One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex > field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended > the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: > author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} > This allows the author to use a free form for each component without > resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How > these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. > Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of > the use of the language field (or setting). I've added a tracer for authors. The main problem with authors is that bibtex was never set up to multilingual (there has been written and talked a lot about it by Jean Micheakl Hufflen who made a multilingual bibtex). So, in order to deal with names, the way to go is roughly as follows: - multiple names are separated by 'and' (hopefully there are no parents who names their kids This and That) - when a name has no commas it gets analyzed and split according to some heuristics ... there is not that much we can do about it (but we try to catch as much as possible) ... this can mean that a particle is seen as one of the surnames but that is seldom a big issue as eventually the name gets combined again - in the mkiv publication subsystem names travel around in their split form: initials, firstnames, vons (bad name, might change), surnames, juniors (also bad name), so Alan Xavier von Braslau jr becomes [A X] [Alan Xavier] [von] [Braslau] [jr] Now that can can never be robust expecially when names are written in full, so that is why we look at names with commas differnetly: Alan Xavier Braslau becomes [A X] [Alan Xavier] [] [Braslau] [] but Xavier Braslau, Alan becomes [A] [Alan] [] [Xavier Braslau] [] the snippets in a two element name is still analyzed according to some heuristics When there are more snippets (where {} indicates an empty snippet) the filling of the record depends on the amount of snippets. In principle you can have of them, including the initials if they are kind of special.) Keep in mind that there is nothing like a bibtex standard (and it's still beta anyway awaiting version 1). Here is a test: \startbuffer[mybib] @book{something-1, author = { Foo Bar von Something }, title = { Whatever 1 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-2, author = { Foo Bar von Something and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 2 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-3, author = { von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 3 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-4, author = { {}, von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 4 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-5, author = { {}, von Something, {}, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 5 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-6, author = { {}, {von Something}, {}, Foo Bar, FoBa and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 6 }, year = { 2015 } } \stopbuffer \usemodule[art-01] \usebtxdataset[mybib.buffer] \starttext \showbtxdatasetcompleteness[standard] \page \showbtxdatasetauthors[standard] \stoptext Of course we can add all kind of manipulators when typesetting them, but adding all kind of complex tweaks to the input makes no sense: (1) I can't remember them as till now i never needed a bibliography myself, and (2) Alan can't document them because there are to many demands and options but above all (3) only one user will use that specific tweak and forgets about it after that specific thesis demand was met. Hans ps. As one has access to the loaded bib data it is always possible to writ every specific renderers given willingness to mess with Lua. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: bibliography again: “von” and “van” 2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen 2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU @ 2015-01-28 4:51 ` Jörg Weger 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Jörg Weger @ 2015-01-28 4:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Thank you very much, Hans. I think I had tried something with double braces before (I use them also for German booktitles to keep upper and lowercase intact) but only now I got it working: Writing both “author = {{Johann Wolfgang von} Goethe}” and “author = {Goethe, {Johann Wolfgang von}}” in the BibTeX are easy workarounds for the problem I was describing. I can happily live with that. In case a problem like that arises I will anyway first take a look at the according BibTeX entry. Greetings Jörg On 27.01.2015 21:50, Hans Hagen wrote: > On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote: >> Hi Jörg, >> >> Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility >> particles in Germany, but not necessarily always >> noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons >> ancestor came from! >> >> Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore >> the von is not truly part of his name. >> He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von >> Goethe“. >> >> It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there >> is no switch for it! > > you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work > >> So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, >> by putting the von in the right part of the name field. > > indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format > > btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get > split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is > under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe > some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole > von business is on our agenda > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry > to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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2015-01-29 9:29 ` bibliography again: “von” and “van” Robert Blackstone
2015-01-27 18:20 Jörg Weger
2015-01-27 19:16 ` Keith Schultz
2015-01-27 20:11 ` Jörg Weger
2015-01-28 12:00 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-01-29 12:06 ` BPJ
2015-01-29 12:53 ` Ulrike Fischer
2015-01-27 20:50 ` Hans Hagen
2015-01-28 3:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
2015-01-28 5:03 ` Jörg Weger
2015-01-28 10:15 ` Keith Schultz
2015-01-31 10:18 ` Hans Hagen
2015-01-28 4:51 ` Jörg Weger
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