* italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V"
@ 2017-06-26 12:48 MF
2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: MF @ 2017-06-26 12:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hello list,
there's a bug in the way ConTeXt groups the items of a register when
"indicator=yes" and mainlanguage is "it":
- items starting with the J letter are grouped under the I letter
- items starting with the V letter are grouped under the U letter
This is not what one would expect from an index in modern italian.
If you browse an italian dictionary, you will find all the 26 letters.
You can test the bug with this code:
----------------------
\starttext
\mainlanguage[it]
Imbuto\index{imbuto}, Juventus\index{Juventus},
volpe\index{volpe}, Windows\index{Windows},
uovo\index{uovo}, yes\index{yes}.
\placeindex[indicator=yes,n=1]
\stoptext
----------------------
Is there a way to get around this bug and get all the 26 distinct
letters in a register keeping "it" as the main language?
Thanks in advance,
best regards,
Massi
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" 2017-06-26 12:48 italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" MF @ 2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen 2017-06-26 19:59 ` mf 2017-06-26 21:39 ` Hans Åberg 0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2017-06-26 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, MF On 6/26/2017 2:48 PM, MF wrote: > Hello list, > there's a bug in the way ConTeXt groups the items of a register when > "indicator=yes" and mainlanguage is "it": > - items starting with the J letter are grouped under the I letter > - items starting with the V letter are grouped under the U letter > > This is not what one would expect from an index in modern italian. > If you browse an italian dictionary, you will find all the 26 letters. > > You can test the bug with this code: > ---------------------- > \starttext > > \mainlanguage[it] > > Imbuto\index{imbuto}, Juventus\index{Juventus}, > volpe\index{volpe}, Windows\index{Windows}, > uovo\index{uovo}, yes\index{yes}. > > \placeindex[indicator=yes,n=1] > > \stoptext > ---------------------- > > Is there a way to get around this bug and get all the 26 distinct > letters in a register keeping "it" as the main language? in sort-lan.lua you can fix the table: definitions["it"] = { entries = { (not sure which italian is responsible for it) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" 2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen @ 2017-06-26 19:59 ` mf 2017-06-26 21:39 ` Hans Åberg 1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: mf @ 2017-06-26 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > in sort-lan.lua you can fix the table: > > definitions["it"] = { > entries = { > > (not sure which italian is responsible for it) > > Hans > > Thank you, Hans. Looking at the code, there's a revealing comment before the definitions for the Latin language: -- Treating the post-classical fricatives “j” and “v” as “i” and “u” -- respectively. When I saw the bug, I suspected something like that, because "U" and "V" are written as "V" in Latin, but not in Italian. The letter "j" replaces "i" also in Italian when it's between vowels or when it's at the beginning of a word, followed by a vowel. But this is the Italian of a century or at least decades ago; in modern Italian it is rarely used and you won't find it i.e. in newspapers. Quoting from Wikipedia (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfabeto_italiano ): "Il latino classico non distingueva graficamente la U dalla V (il latino classico aveva solo la U e scriveva parole come divvs per per /ˈdiːwus/); in epoca classica e soprattutto nel latino medievale (che è arrivato fino a noi tramite l'uso ecclesiastico) iniziò a farsi sentire una distinzione tra U e V e quindi la nuova consonante venne creata modificando la V in U..." Classical latin did not distinguish graphically "U" from "V" (classical latin had only the "U" letter and wrote words like "divvus" for /ˈdiːwus/); during classical antiquity and even more in medieval latin (which arrived to us through ecclesiastical use) a distinction between "U" and "V" started to emerge, so the new consonant had been created modifying the "V" letter into "U"... "La J inizia ad essere usata nel '500 fino all'inizio del XX secolo, sia per indicare il suono semiconsonantico della I (jella), ovvero la "i" intervocalica (grondaja, aja), e come segno tipografico per la doppia i (principj). Le lettere I e J erano ancora considerate equivalenti, per quanto riguarda l'ordine alfabetico nei dizionari e nelle enciclopedie italiani, fino alla metà del XX secolo." The "J" letter started to be used in XVI century until the beginning of the XX century, to suggest the semiconsonantic sound of "I" (jella) or the "i" between vowels (grondaja, aja), and also as a typographic sign for the double "i" (principj). "I" and "J" letters were still considered equivalent in the alphabetic order for italian dictionaries and encyclopedias until the midst of XX century. Getting back, to sort-lan.lua, it should be like this: ------------------------------- definitions["it"] = { entries = { ["a"] = "a", ["á"] = "a", ["b"] = "b", ["c"] = "c", ["d"] = "d", ["e"] = "e", ["é"] = "e", ["è"] = "e", ["f"] = "f", ["g"] = "g", ["h"] = "h", ["i"] = "i", ["í"] = "i", ["ì"] = "i", ["j"] = "j", ["k"] = "k", ["l"] = "l", ["m"] = "m", ["n"] = "n", ["o"] = "o", ["ó"] = "o", ["ò"] = "o", ["p"] = "p", ["q"] = "q", ["r"] = "r", ["s"] = "s", ["t"] = "t", ["u"] = "u", ["ú"] = "u", ["ù"] = "u", ["v"] = "v", ["w"] = "w", ["x"] = "x", ["y"] = "y", ["z"] = "z", }, ------------------------------- Thank you again, best regards, Massi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" 2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen 2017-06-26 19:59 ` mf @ 2017-06-26 21:39 ` Hans Åberg 2017-06-27 7:06 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Åberg @ 2017-06-26 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Hans Hagen > On 26 Jun 2017, at 15:34, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > > On 6/26/2017 2:48 PM, MF wrote: >> >> there's a bug in the way ConTeXt groups the items of a register when >> "indicator=yes" and mainlanguage is "it": >> - items starting with the J letter are grouped under the I letter >> - items starting with the V letter are grouped under the U letter >> This is not what one would expect from an index in modern italian. >> If you browse an italian dictionary, you will find all the 26 letters. >> Is there a way to get around this bug and get all the 26 distinct >> letters in a register keeping "it" as the main language? > in sort-lan.lua you can fix the table: > > definitions["it"] = { > entries = { > > (not sure which italian is responsible for it) In Swedish, originally, "w" is sorted the same as "v", but it has changed lately, though there is a recommendation to still use the old style in tables of personal names, in view they phonetically identical in Swedish. So there are two different sortings in use. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" 2017-06-26 21:39 ` Hans Åberg @ 2017-06-27 7:06 ` Hans Hagen 2017-06-27 8:43 ` Hans Åberg 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2017-06-27 7:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Åberg, mailing list for ConTeXt users On 6/26/2017 11:39 PM, Hans Åberg wrote: > >> On 26 Jun 2017, at 15:34, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: >> >> On 6/26/2017 2:48 PM, MF wrote: >>> >>> there's a bug in the way ConTeXt groups the items of a register when >>> "indicator=yes" and mainlanguage is "it": >>> - items starting with the J letter are grouped under the I letter >>> - items starting with the V letter are grouped under the U letter >>> This is not what one would expect from an index in modern italian. >>> If you browse an italian dictionary, you will find all the 26 letters. > >>> Is there a way to get around this bug and get all the 26 distinct >>> letters in a register keeping "it" as the main language? >> in sort-lan.lua you can fix the table: >> >> definitions["it"] = { >> entries = { >> >> (not sure which italian is responsible for it) > > In Swedish, originally, "w" is sorted the same as "v", but it has changed lately, though there is a recommendation to still use the old style in tables of personal names, in view they phonetically identical in Swedish. So there are two different sortings in use. it's no problem to have several vectors because one can configure what vector(set) to choose Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" 2017-06-27 7:06 ` Hans Hagen @ 2017-06-27 8:43 ` Hans Åberg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Åberg @ 2017-06-27 8:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users > On 27 Jun 2017, at 09:06, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > > On 6/26/2017 11:39 PM, Hans Åberg wrote: >> >> In Swedish, originally, "w" is sorted the same as "v", but it has changed lately, though there is a recommendation to still use the old style in tables of personal names, in view they phonetically identical in Swedish. So there are two different sortings in use. > it's no problem to have several vectors because one can configure what vector(set) to choose Indeed, that is what I think might be required in general. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-06-27 8:43 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-06-26 12:48 italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V" MF 2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen 2017-06-26 19:59 ` mf 2017-06-26 21:39 ` Hans Åberg 2017-06-27 7:06 ` Hans Hagen 2017-06-27 8:43 ` Hans Åberg
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