French punctuation : tests

French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

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Hello,

It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front »
! Thank's.

I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki :
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation
I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21

* Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger
than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3
* Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this
(with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal
sign (-). Test 5
* There should't  be space between two sign. Test 2
* The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with
othe fonts). Test 4

As usual, if you need more information, just ask !

Cheers,
Olivier.

-- 
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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 25.09.2008 um 21:40 schrieb Olivier Guéry:

> Hello,
>
> It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front »
> ! Thank's.
>
> I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki :
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation
> I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21
>
> * Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger
> than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3
> * Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this
> (with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal
> sign (-). Test 5
> * There should't  be space between two sign. Test 2
> * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with
> othe fonts). Test 4


Point 3:

\definehspace[fr][quote][\zeropoint]

\installlanguage
   [fr]
   [leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote,
    rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote,
    leftquotation=\leftguillemot,
    rightquotation=\rightguillemot]

Point 4:

\definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount]

\definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}]

\setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}]

Wolfgang

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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

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2008/9/25 Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>

>
> Am 25.09.2008 um 21:40 schrieb Olivier Guéry:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front »
> > ! Thank's.
> >
> > I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki :
> > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation
> > I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21
> >
> > * Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger
> > than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3
> > * Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this
> > (with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal
> > sign (-). Test 5
> > * There should't  be space between two sign. Test 2
> > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with
> > othe fonts). Test 4
>
>
> Point 3:
>
> \definehspace[fr][quote][\zeropoint]
>
> \installlanguage
>   [fr]
>   [leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote,
>    rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote,
>    leftquotation=\leftguillemot,
>    rightquotation=\rightguillemot]
>
> Point 4:
>
> \definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount]
>
> \definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}]
>
> \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}]


Wolfgang is definitly the super hero of this list \o/.

Hans, is there a « legal » procedure to have this inclued by default in the
\frenchpunctuation command ?

Cheers,
Olivier.

-- 
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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

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Ok, aftre some test…

It seem's that it's linked to the fonts… damn !
The value in « \definehspace[fr][footnote][-.2667\emspaceamount] » need to
be negative, as I set it (work with my fontin_sans font, too big for lmodern
font).
Then I found two problems :
— the space after is way too big :o)
— how can I set other values of the \setupfootnotes ? I tried this :
\setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high},
bodyfont=\tfxx, width=70mm]

But I get an error.
Here is a minimal test about footnotes.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\mainlanguage [fr]
\language [fr]
\usemodule [french]
\setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation]

\starttext

\definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount]
\definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}]
\setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}]

This texte, with a footnote\footnote{there's a point just after}.

\definehspace[fr][footnote][-.05\emspaceamount]
\definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}]
\setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}]

Same thing, with a negative value\footnote{look at the space after…}.

\stoptext
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Cheers,
Olivier.

PS : Context version : 2008.09.21 22:31, luatex 0.29.0 beta.

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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Peter Münster]

On Thu, Sep 25 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote:

> * There should't  be space between two sign. Test 2

Hello Olivier,

IMHO, "frenchpunctuation" should just care about the additional spaces
before some punctuation signs, that are the French typographic mainstream.
Neither more, nor less. Two or three signs like "!!!" are anyway rare
exceptions and perhaps grammatically even not allowed. For such exceptions
one can use for example "\string!", if no space is wanted.

I would like to see the rules as simple as this:
- before ":", ";", "?", "!" and "»" add some tiny nobreakspace (for example
  half an inter-word space and stretchable)
- if the author has already added a space (or nbsp) character before such
  sign, gobble it and use the tiny nbsp
- same thing after "«"


> * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with
> othe fonts). Test 4

For me, no special treatment should be triggered with "frenchpunctuation"
or \language[fr]. Footnote signs are just a matter of taste and style.


> \mainlanguage [fr] \language[fr]
> \setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation]

Perhaps, it would make sense, to make one test file for \mainlanguage[fr]
and another another one for \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] ?

> 1 The « ; » signs shouldn’t be at the beginning of a line, there must be
> space before all sign (look at the rules here :
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation) :\crlf

To test, that the space is not breakable, one can use:
\start
\hsize1pt
bla: bla : bla : bla~:
bla? bla ? bla ? bla~?
bla! bla ! bla ! bla~!
bla; bla ; bla ; bla~;
«bla» « bla » « bla » «~bla~»\par
\stop


Cheers, Peter

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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

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2008/9/29 Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote:
>
> > * There should't  be space between two sign. Test 2
>
> Hello Olivier,
>
> IMHO, "frenchpunctuation" should just care about the additional spaces
> before some punctuation signs, that are the French typographic mainstream.
> Neither more, nor less. Two or three signs like "!!!" are anyway rare
> exceptions and perhaps grammatically even not allowed. For such exceptions
> one can use for example "\string!", if no space is wanted.

They are not allowed for « strict » french. But if you type a
conversation, you can have them.
Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation.
So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a
space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation.
But i understand your point of view. In fact  such a rule is so unknow
and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it.

>
> I would like to see the rules as simple as this:
> - before ":", ";", "?", "!" and "»" add some tiny nobreakspace (for example
>  half an inter-word space and stretchable)

The rule is a bit more complicated for the « : ». My hope was the fact
that if TeX is able to have strict rules, let use them !

> - if the author has already added a space (or nbsp) character before such
>  sign, gobble it and use the tiny nbsp
> - same thing after "«"

Yes you're probably right. But it's hard to determine what is juste
taste or what is rules.

> > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with
> > othe fonts). Test 4
>
> For me, no special treatment should be triggered with "frenchpunctuation"
> or \language[fr]. Footnote signs are just a matter of taste and style.

I don't know rules in other languages but in french the footnote sign
is before ponctuation, so having big space before/after is not clean.
If i find the setting for doing this, i'll use it :D. And probably
other french people too.
But a page on the wiki is maybe enough.


> > \mainlanguage [fr] \language[fr]
> > \setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation]
>
> Perhaps, it would make sense, to make one test file for \mainlanguage[fr]
> and another another one for \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] ?

Ok, result is join. Not shure it's the good syntax (and test n°4
failed to compile, but it can be my instalation).

> > 1 The « ; » signs shouldn't be at the beginning of a line, there must be
> > space before all sign (look at the rules here :
> > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation) :\crlf
>
> To test, that the space is not breakable, one can use:
> \start
> \hsize1pt
> bla: bla : bla : bla~:
> bla? bla ? bla ? bla~?
> bla! bla ! bla ! bla~!
> bla; bla ; bla ; bla~;
> «bla» « bla » « bla » «~bla~»\par
> \stop
 Thanks a lot.

Cheers,
Olivier.


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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Peter Münster]

On Tue, Sep 30 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote:

> Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation.

Hello Olivier,

Who is Celine?

> So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a
> space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation.
> But i understand your point of view. In fact  such a rule is so unknow
> and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it.

If you begin to treat such exceptions, you'll never finish. Today you're
thinking of "!!!", tomorrow there will be "19:20" or "Hi!jab".
There are 2 main ideas:
- Don't put too many exceptions into ConTeXt, especially if there is no hope
  to treat them all automatically. When a text needs special constructions,
  put them in a macro, for example \ThreeExclamationMarks.
- For most "rules", the opinions diverge. Some people want a bit more
  kerning here or there, other people want less.


> The rule is a bit more complicated for the « : ». My hope was the fact
> that if TeX is able to have strict rules, let use them !

Think of the French LaTeX community: some want an inter-word space before a
punctuation sign, others want only a half space or even less. So don't be
too strict!


> Yes you're probably right. But it's hard to determine what is juste
> taste or what is rules.

Not so hard. Almost everybody will agree with this minimal rule for French
punctuation:
- there has to be some nobreakspace before the punctuation signs :?!; and »
  and after «
- there is some default value for the amount of this space, that can be
  easily changed by user-setup

Cheers, Peter

-- 
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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

there is a new beta with a few important changes

- partial rewrite of the tex-lua font definition interface (from now on 
font-ini is different for mkii and mkiv)

- adapted spacing (for french), taking care of penalty/space situations 
and such

for this beta you need the latest luatex as well because otherwise the 
font definition mechanism will not work (this means that the minimals 
also need to be updated)

Hans

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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

2008/9/30 Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr>:
> On Tue, Sep 30 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote:
>
>> Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation.
>
> Hello Olivier,
>
> Who is Celine?

A french writer from the 20th century. He's revolutionnary cause he
make « true » litterature by using spoke language. He used a lot
punctuatios (espacially « … » in fact).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Ferdinand_C%C3%A9line

>
>> So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a
>> space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation.
>> But i understand your point of view. In fact  such a rule is so unknow
>> and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it.
>
> If you begin to treat such exceptions, you'll never finish. Today you're
> thinking of "!!!", tomorrow there will be "19:20" or "Hi!jab".
> There are 2 main ideas:
> - Don't put too many exceptions into ConTeXt, especially if there is no hope
>  to treat them all automatically. When a text needs special constructions,
>  put them in a macro, for example \ThreeExclamationMarks.

I'll try this.

> - For most "rules", the opinions diverge. Some people want a bit more
>  kerning here or there, other people want less.

In fact it's the beauty un typography : there's rules and the last one
is « you can alway find an exception ».
I realy understand your point and you're certaily right, I'm too
strict :-) ; let me just point out that since most people don't know
the rules they expect their computer to know them.
So you can say : be cool with the rules, let people do adjustment
themselves, or make « hard » rules with the possibility to switch them
off.
I really don't know what's the better. Certainly something between the
two, as usual !

> - there is some default value for the amount of this space, that can be
>  easily changed by user-setup

Maybe it's just because changing setup look's hard for me… gonna learn !

Thank's a lot for taking the time to answer me.

Olivier.

-- 
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Re: French punctuation : tests

[Olivier Guéry]

2008/9/30 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>:
> Hi,
>
> there is a new beta with a few important changes
>
> - partial rewrite of the tex-lua font definition interface (from now on
> font-ini is different for mkii and mkiv)
>
> - adapted spacing (for french), taking care of penalty/space situations
> and such
>
> for this beta you need the latest luatex as well because otherwise the
> font definition mechanism will not work (this means that the minimals
> also need to be updated)
>
> Hans

Here is the result : frenchpunctuation run's great ! The test n°2 is
perfect ! (are they realy thin space ?)

Thank's a lot,
Olivier.

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