Displayed material, again

Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Hello list,

I wish to bring the discussion again on displayed material.
Display material is material that conceptually belongs to a
paragraphs but typographically breaks it. After the display, the
paragraph can continue or not. In ConTeXt, there are many things
which should be considered displayed material: formulas,
enumerations and other itemgroups, quotations, etc. Every
start/stop pair that begins a new paragraph should actually be a
displayed area. In ConTeXt, one can achieve such result by using
[intentnext=yes] or [indentnext=no] on a case-by-case basis,
depending on whether the start/stop pair is supposed to start a
new paragraph or not. Of course, this "manual" way to do the thing
goes against the general principle that the computer is supposed
to do as much of the job as possible, by itself. I therefore wish
to urge Hans to implement a new indentnext option, "auto", which
should give a behaviour similar to the one shown on this example:

=== BEGIN displayed.tex ===

\setupindenting[medium]

\definestartstop[display][before=\initdisplay,after=\terminatedisplay,style=italic]

\def\initdisplay{\ifvmode\else\endgraf\noindent\fi
  \bgroup\advance\leftskip2\parindent\advance\rightskip2\parindent\ignorespaces}
\def\terminatedisplay{\par\egroup\afterassignment\checkifpar\let\ispar=}
\def\checkifpar{\ifx\ispar\par\else\noindent\expandafter\ispar\fi}

\starttext

The purpouse of this document is to practically show how display
material should behave: display material is material that
conceptually belongs to a paragraphs but typographically breaks it
After the display, the paragraph can continue or not.

We now quote Knuth:
\startdisplay
\input knuth
\stopdisplay
and continue the paragraph right after. The following quote will
instead end the paragraph:
\startdisplay
\input tufte
\stopdisplay

This text belongs to a different paragraph: note that it's being
indented (differently from the previous snippet). This paragraph
has no quotations. Instead, the next paragraph will start with
a quotation (display material at the beginning of the paragraph)
and have some text after~it.

\startdisplay
\input knuth
\stopdisplay
is again a quote from Knuth. Observe that this way the source
obeys the \TeX\ convention of empy lines to terminate paragraphs,
and that it is not necessary to manually specify the intentnext
option for the single cases.

\stoptext

=== END displayed.tex ===

The paragraph-wise behaviour of \initdisplay and
\terminatedisplay+\checkifpar (i.e. excluding the left-/rightskip
adaptments, which have only a visual purpouse) should be the
behaviour in case indentnext=auto.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re: Displayed material, again

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Since I've earlier agreed with you on this Giuseppe, I'll do so here 
too.

However, there seems to be something weird with this sample file.  In 
the first Knuth entry, the first paragraph is not indented, while in 
the second (at the end) it is.  This is a matter of trivial detail 
though, and I agree with your basic request.  I regularly write 
documents such as this example.  Whatever mechanism we have, I'd want 
it to automatic, such that DocBook code I might use would just work.

As I recall, this was partly addressed with respect to quotes; right?

Bruce

Re[2]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Monday, March 10, 2003 Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

BDA> Since I've earlier agreed with you on this Giuseppe, I'll do so here
BDA> too.

BDA> However, there seems to be something weird with this sample file.  In
BDA> the first Knuth entry, the first paragraph is not indented, while in
BDA> the second (at the end) it is.  This is a matter of trivial detail
BDA> though, and I agree with your basic request.

Actually that indent/noindent for the first line of the displayed
material was just a personal test to see if I could make it work
(so as to distinguish when the displayed material started a new
paragraph and when not --when there is indentation on the first
line it's because it starts a new paragraph ...)

Anyway, I built a "quick and dirty" patch which seems to work for
most environments which, I think, require it: itemgroups,
definitions, formulas, verbatim. You can put it in your cont-loc
between \unprotect ... \protect pairs:

=== BEGIN PATCH ===
\startvariables all
    auto: auto
\stopvariables

\def\@@stopdefinitie#1%
  {\par
   \dostopattributes
   \endgroup
   \getvalue{\??dd#1\c!na}%
   \egroup % temporary hack
   \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
   \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
 
\def\stopitemgroup
  {\iftextitems
     \removeunwantedspaces\space\ignorespaces
   \else
     \par
   \fi
   \ifnum\itemcolumndepth=\zerocount \dolistreference \fi % beware !
   \iffirstlist \else \endgroup \fi % toegevoegd, eerste \som opent groep
   \ifnum\itemcolumndepth=\itemlevel\relax
     \stopkolommen
     \doglobal\newcounter\itemcolumndepth
     \getitemparameter\itemlevel\c!na
   \else
     \ifnum\itemlevel=\plusone
       \doitembreak\allowbreak           % toegevoegd
       \getitemparameter1\c!na
       \doif\@@oospringvolgendein\v!nee\noindentation
       \doif\@@oospringvolgendein\v!auto\noindent
     \fi
   \fi
   \endgroup
   \doglobal\decrement(\itemlevel,\itemincrement)%
   \egroup}

\def\dostopformula
  {\doplaceformulanumber
   \getvalue{\e!stop\getvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!variant}\e!formule}%
    \resetlastlinewidth
    \nonoindentation
    \doifvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
    \doifvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent
    \egroup}

\def\dostoptyping#1%
  {\stopverbatimcolor
     \stopopelkaar  % includes \egroup
        \getvalue{\??tp#1\c!na}%
           \doifvalue{\??tp#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
           \doifvalue{\??tp#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
            
=== END PATCH ===

Remember to issue the following instructions:

\setupformulas[indentnext=auto]
\setupitemgroups[indentnext=auto]

to make it work. No need to regenerate the formats (you may need
to refresh the filename database if you didn't have a cont-loc.tex
before that). Hans, can we hope for this to go into the core for
the next beta?

Note: while I think it should be done for quotations as well, this
seems to be a feature "in development" so I won't touch it for
now.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

s-mag-01

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Just been playing a bit with the magazine style.  First, about this:

> % This style is used for producing explanationary documents.
> % Don't misuse it for other purposes, since it may confuse
> % users. Don't change the title either, since it provides a
> % way to categorize documents.

Hans, are you saying anyone using this to produce a document ought to 
keep the title specified in the style (which here seems to be {Zero 
Issue}?  In any case, this is confusing (at least to me)...

Also, IIRC, shouldn't the grey border surround the entire page, and 
extend to the edge?  I am getting a thinner border in the shape of an 
"L," with white space at the page edge.

Bruce

Re: s-mag-01

[Hans Hagen]

At 05:15 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>Just been playing a bit with the magazine style.  First, about this:
>
>>% This style is used for producing explanationary documents.
>>% Don't misuse it for other purposes, since it may confuse
>>% users. Don't change the title either, since it provides a
>>% way to categorize documents.
>
>Hans, are you saying anyone using this to produce a document ought to keep 
>the title specified in the style (which here seems to be {Zero Issue}?  In 
>any case, this is confusing (at least to me)...

no, i mean the main title (* Way) shoul dremain unchanged.

>Also, IIRC, shouldn't the grey border surround the entire page, and extend 
>to the edge?  I am getting a thinner border in the shape of an "L," with 
>white space at the page edge.

works ok here, puzzled

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: s-mag-01

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:00  AM, Hans Hagen wrote:

>>
>> Hans, are you saying anyone using this to produce a document ought to 
>> keep the title specified in the style (which here seems to be {Zero 
>> Issue}?  In any case, this is confusing (at least to me)...
>
> no, i mean the main title (* Way) shoul dremain unchanged.

OK, I understand that.  But I'm still unclear of the logic here.  I 
understand the style "is used for producing explanationary documents," 
but surely not everyone wants to name such documents the same way,  and 
"provides a way to categorize documents" seems more applicable to 
Pragma than to outside users...

I'm not sure how (or if) I might want to use the style, but I could 
imagine student lab manuals maybe (?).  In any case, I appreciate your 
releasing it, as it's a good learning tool at the very least.

Bruce

Re: s-mag-01

[Hans Hagen]

At 09:11 AM 3/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:00  AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Hans, are you saying anyone using this to produce a document ought to 
>>>keep the title specified in the style (which here seems to be {Zero 
>>>Issue}?  In any case, this is confusing (at least to me)...
>>
>>no, i mean the main title (* Way) shoul dremain unchanged.
>
>OK, I understand that.  But I'm still unclear of the logic here.  I 
>understand the style "is used for producing explanationary documents," but 
>surely not everyone wants to name such documents the same way,  and 
>"provides a way to categorize documents" seems more applicable to Pragma 
>than to outside users...

i have no time for that

>I'm not sure how (or if) I might want to use the style, but I could 
>imagine student lab manuals maybe (?).  In any case, I appreciate your 
>releasing it, as it's a good learning tool at the very least.

sure, i only want to make sure that "This Way" is used for our stuff only; 
i have no problem with you using the style with a title other than *Way, 
like LabLog or so

Hans


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: s-mag-01

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:00  AM, Hans Hagen wrote:

>
>> Also, IIRC, shouldn't the grey border surround the entire page, and 
>> extend to the edge?  I am getting a thinner border in the shape of an 
>> "L," with white space at the page edge.
>
> works ok here, puzzled

On this, the only thing I changed was to use a different font, since 
palatino doesn't seem to work from ConTeXt in my new installation.

I know this was discussed previously, but don't remember the bottomline 
point.  Shouldn't these fonts that are included with teTeX and TeXLive 
just work in ConTeXt, without needing any intervention by the user?  If 
yes, whose responsibility is this?  Am using Gerben Wierda's OS X 
installer, but have a feeling this isn't his problem.  Or maybe it is?

Bruce

Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> writes:

Hello Bruce,

> On this, the only thing I changed was to use a different font, since
> palatino doesn't seem to work from ConTeXt in my new installation.

Same here :(

> I know this was discussed previously, but don't remember the
> bottomline point.  Shouldn't these fonts that are included with teTeX
> and TeXLive just work in ConTeXt, without needing any intervention by
> the user?  

They should...

> If yes, whose responsibility is this? Am using Gerben Wierda's OS X
> installer, but have a feeling this isn't his problem. Or maybe it
> is?

Yes and no... ConTeXt is looking for fonts with names that are totally
unusual compared to the ordinary TeX (LaTeX) System. Most TeX systems
(and I guess GW TeX as well) support psnfss, the postscript font
system to be used with latex. That means, that you should have fonts
named in a cryptic way "pplr8r.tfm" or such. ConTeXt on the other hand
looks for fontnames like "8r-uplr8a.tfm". Almost no one has a font
named like this on their system. So ConTeXt provides a mapping
(remember the command \usetypescript[berry][\defaultencoding]?) that
maps from 8r-uplr8a.tfm to uplr8r.tfm. But this will fail on many TeX
systems, since there is no such file. (It works on TeXlive7.) ConTeXt
should in this case rather map to pplr8r.tfm, which is available on
all psnfss systems (i.e. all LaTeX ready systems).

I should send Hans a different mapping to go into the distribution. I
am still undecided how to name it. Perhaps
\usetypescript[psnfss][..]? Or \...[ADOBEkb] as in updmap.cfg? Or
adobekb (lowercase)?

Patrick

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 09:46  AM, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> Yes and no... ConTeXt is looking for fonts with names that are totally
> unusual compared to the ordinary TeX (LaTeX) System. Most TeX systems
> (and I guess GW TeX as well) support psnfss, the postscript font
> system to be used with latex. That means, that you should have fonts
> named in a cryptic way "pplr8r.tfm" or such. ConTeXt on the other hand
> looks for fontnames like "8r-uplr8a.tfm". Almost no one has a font
> named like this on their system.

This kind of thing is just silly.  The above named file is no more 
clearly named than the psnfss version, so what's the point?

Anyway, I vote for your first name option for the mapping file:  
\usetypescript[psnfss]

Make sure you send it to Gerben too, so he can get it in the installer 
sooner rather than later...

Bruce

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Maarten Sneep]

On Tuesday 11 March 2003 16:10, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 09:46  AM, Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> > Yes and no... ConTeXt is looking for fonts with names that are totally
> > unusual compared to the ordinary TeX (LaTeX) System. Most TeX systems
> > (and I guess GW TeX as well) support psnfss, the postscript font
> > system to be used with latex. That means, that you should have fonts
> > named in a cryptic way "pplr8r.tfm" or such. ConTeXt on the other hand
> > looks for fontnames like "8r-uplr8a.tfm". Almost no one has a font
> > named like this on their system.
>
> This kind of thing is just silly.  The above named file is no more
> clearly named than the psnfss version, so what's the point?

It is clearer: the first bit gives the encoding and the latter bit is the 
name of the file containign the glyphs (uplr8a.pfb). OTOH since LaTeX already 
creates a lot of font-mess, I do agree that there is no need to add more to 
the trouble already there. I would like to see a few sym-links (does Windows 
have something like that?) to add a few names to the tree to make sure 
everything works as planned. 

Since texfont uses afm2tfm directly (and the tfm files that come with psnfss 
are hand tuned) I don't think that using texfont blindly is a very good idea. 
It would be better to use the existing tfm files. The dvips documentation on 
aft2tfm lists what's been added to the tfm's in the psnfss collection, I 
cannot recall this right now.

Cheers,

Maarten Sneep

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 08:04  AM, Maarten Sneep wrote:

>>> That means, that you should have fonts
>>> named in a cryptic way "pplr8r.tfm" or such. ConTeXt on the other 
>>> hand
>>> looks for fontnames like "8r-uplr8a.tfm". Almost no one has a font
>>> named like this on their system.
>>
>> This kind of thing is just silly.  The above named file is no more
>> clearly named than the psnfss version, so what's the point?
>
> It is clearer: the first bit gives the encoding and the latter bit is 
> the
> name of the file containign the glyphs (uplr8a.pfb).

The "8r" at the end of the psnfss version also gives the encoding, and 
I don't really think there's a need to have the precise pfb name in the 
tfm file name.  That's not to say there aren't problems with psnfss, 
just that in this context those problems aren't important.

> Since texfont uses afm2tfm directly (and the tfm files that come with 
> psnfss
> are hand tuned) I don't think that using texfont blindly is a very 
> good idea.
> It would be better to use the existing tfm files.

Right.  Patrick has a file that maps the ConTeXt names to the pfsnss 
names, which solves the problem.

Bruce

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Maarten Sneep]

On Wednesday 12 March 2003 14:23, you wrote:
> The "8r" at the end of the psnfss version also gives the encoding, and
> I don't really think there's a need to have the precise pfb name in the
> tfm file name.  That's not to say there aren't problems with psnfss,
> just that in this context those problems aren't important.

OK.

> > Since texfont uses afm2tfm directly (and the tfm files that come with
> > psnfss are hand tuned) I don't think that using texfont blindly is a very
> > good idea. It would be better to use the existing tfm files.
>
> Right.  Patrick has a file that maps the ConTeXt names to the pfsnss
> names, which solves the problem.

Although that means you have to adapt the sources of the files you receive to 
use this intermediate translation file. Although I suspect this is something 
that could be put in cont-sys.tex (anyone for the exact command?) and make it 
a system wide local configuration. 

BTW isn't this something that sould be addressed by using  
\usetypescript[ber]? (Or did I miss something?)

Maarten

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Maarten Sneep <sneep@nat.vu.nl> writes:

Hello!

>> Right.  Patrick has a file that maps the ConTeXt names to the pfsnss
>> names, which solves the problem.
>
> Although that means you have to adapt the sources of the files you
> receive to use this intermediate translation file. 

You don't need to.

> Although I suspect this is something that could be put in
> cont-sys.tex (anyone for the exact command?) and make it a system
> wide local configuration.


\usetypescriptfile[tetex]
\usetypescript[tetex][someencoding]


> BTW isn't this something that sould be addressed by using  
> \usetypescript[ber]? (Or did I miss something?)

Well, in my opinion, the berry typesript is sub-optimal, since it
maps to the urw variants that are a) shipped with a few TeX systems only
and b) (even worse) the urw variant helvetica (nimbus sans) is of no
real use for the german people out there (broken germandbls). 

Patrick

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 03:05 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>Well, in my opinion, the berry typesript is sub-optimal, since it
>maps to the urw variants that are a) shipped with a few TeX systems only
>and b) (even worse) the urw variant helvetica (nimbus sans) is of no
>real use for the german people out there (broken germandbls).

then, how many people do have the adobe palatino's?

concerning the broken german ss: the polish font gurus (you'll meet them at 
the dante meeting) have made extended versions of those urw fonts, so maybe 
that will help. [the normal urw also don't have ogoneked glyphs]

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:

Hello Hans,

> At 03:05 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Well, in my opinion, the berry typesript is sub-optimal, since it
>>maps to the urw variants that are a) shipped with a few TeX systems only
>>and b) (even worse) the urw variant helvetica (nimbus sans) is of no
>>real use for the german people out there (broken germandbls).
>
> then, how many people do have the adobe palatino's?

None that I know of. But this is IMHO irelevant: the current TeX
practice is:

1) TeX macro package (aka LaTeX ;-) asks for "Adobe Helvetica", it
   gets the font metrics from "phv....tfm". Then, in the map files
   the users decides whether to use the original adobe fonts or the
   substitues. 

2) TeX macro package (aka ConTeXt ;-) asks for "URW Nimbus Sans"
   a) on TeXlive (and perhaps any other I don't kown of) it gets the
      metrics from "uhv....tfm". Then, in the map files the user has
      no choice; the dvi/pdf driver should take Nimbus Sans.

   b) on teTeX (+...?) with some special mappings it gets the
      "phv....tfm" metrics. Then see above at 1).

I think it is wrong behaviour to explicitly ask for the substitution
and leave the user no choice about which variant (adobe, urw) to use.

> concerning the broken german ss: the polish font gurus (you'll meet
> them at the dante meeting) have made extended versions of those urw
> fonts, so maybe that will help. [the normal urw also don't have
> ogoneked glyphs]

Well, concerning the ss: Just install the Adobe Helvetica (free) and
that's it (except for patching ConTeXt ;-)

Patrick

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Jens-Uwe Morawski]

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:43:40 +0100
Patrick Gundlach <pg@levana.de> wrote:


> > At 03:05 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> >>Well, in my opinion, the berry typesript is sub-optimal, since it
> >>maps to the urw variants that are a) shipped with a few TeX systems only
> >>and b) (even worse) the urw variant helvetica (nimbus sans) is of no
> >>real use for the german people out there (broken germandbls).
> >
> > then, how many people do have the adobe palatino's?
> 
> None that I know of. But this is IMHO irelevant: the current TeX
> practice is:

No. No.
 
> 1) TeX macro package (aka LaTeX ;-) asks for "Adobe Helvetica", it
>    gets the font metrics from "phv....tfm". Then, in the map files
>    the users decides whether to use the original adobe fonts or the
>    substitues. 

the MAP-file is a nice place for the real font selection. How should
i tell "normal" users that their font-selection from the document is
overwriten since some stupid and wrong decisions have been made
in the past.

> 2) TeX macro package (aka ConTeXt ;-) asks for "URW Nimbus Sans"
>    a) on TeXlive (and perhaps any other I don't kown of) it gets the
>       metrics from "uhv....tfm". Then, in the map files the user has
>       no choice; the dvi/pdf driver should take Nimbus Sans.

that's correct, since *it is* URW...

> I think it is wrong behaviour to explicitly ask for the substitution

it's no substitution, it is the font that is ask for. You asks for
URW and you get URW. Simple, isn't it?
The way the psnfss works is wrong, since one asks for Adobe and gets
URW. Please read some threads in the PDFTeX-ML and you can see what
confusion this creates.

> and leave the user no choice about which variant (adobe, urw) to use.

The choice is made with a new typescript. This is the common procedure
when a new font is installed. So, if you have Adobe Palatino then
install it as you did for other fonnts too. But, stop! Sorry, there
are always entries in the current pdfTeX MAP-file that map your Adobe
fonts back to URW variants. So, first you to have  edit the MAP-file.
No, no you cannot use \loadmapfile since it does not overwrite the
wrong psnfss settings. Nice way to fool many users. Many thanks. ;)

Thus, include a new typescript in the ConTeXt core that maps to the
Adobe names, but please don't support these wrong decisions of
the past. Additionally, please don't name the typescript "Adobe....",
since it is only Adobe if you have the fonts installed. "psnfss" is
a good name: PS-Names-Fooling-Suitable-Setup. For real Adobe fonts
everybody should be able to write proper typescripts.

Regards,
  Jens

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Jens-Uwe Morawski <morawski@gmx.net> writes:

Hello Jens and others,

>> >>Well, in my opinion, the berry typesript is sub-optimal, since it
>> >>maps to the urw variants that are a) shipped with a few TeX systems only
>> >>and b) (even worse) the urw variant helvetica (nimbus sans) is of no
>> >>real use for the german people out there (broken germandbls).
>> >
>> > then, how many people do have the adobe palatino's?
>> 
>> None that I know of. But this is IMHO irelevant: the current TeX
>> practice is:
>
> No. No.

Well it is the way psnfss works. That means all LaTeX users do it
this way and this is about 99% (wild guess) of all TeX users. So it
is current practice.


>> 1) TeX macro package (aka LaTeX ;-) asks for "Adobe Helvetica", it
>>    gets the font metrics from "phv....tfm". Then, in the map files
>>    the users decides whether to use the original adobe fonts or the
>>    substitues. 
>
> the MAP-file is a nice place for the real font selection. 

I agree with that. (Did you mean it this way?)

> How should i tell "normal" users that their font-selection from the
> document is overwriten since some stupid and wrong decisions have
> been made in the past.

That is easy: You don't have the real helvetica? Then your dvi
processor (or pdfTeX) switches back to a substitution. This is the
way every printer works, that don't have the Linotype fonts built in. 
So what wrong decisions have been made?

>
>> 2) TeX macro package (aka ConTeXt ;-) asks for "URW Nimbus Sans"
>>    a) on TeXlive (and perhaps any other I don't kown of) it gets the
>>       metrics from "uhv....tfm". Then, in the map files the user has
>>       no choice; the dvi/pdf driver should take Nimbus Sans.
>
> that's correct, since *it is* URW...

>> I think it is wrong behaviour to explicitly ask for the substitution
>
> it's no substitution, it is the font that is ask for. You asks for
> URW and you get URW. Simple, isn't it?



Well asking for URW, you get URW; that's clear. But there are three
steps involved:

1) the user: he or she requests the typescript [times][..]. What does
   he want? URW? Or what? IMO I request Times-Roman, and not a
   substitue. 

2) ConTeXt (or other TeX macro packages): When "Helvetica" is
   requested, it is mapped to uhv..., which is not Helvetica but
   Nimbus Sans. -> IMO this is wrong behaviour. The user request
   should be carried through the whole system right to the end, and
   let the last possible part in the printing process decide "to
   substitute or not to substitute".

3) The dvi processor: uhv-> get Nimbus Sans. phv-> get Helvetica,
   when you don't have that (default) get Nimbus Sans. 

The way with current ConTeXt it is now: I ask for Helvetica and get
Nimbus Sans. There is no way around this. 

> The way the psnfss works is wrong, since one asks for Adobe and gets
> URW. Please read some threads in the PDFTeX-ML and you can see what
> confusion this creates.

I did a quick search for Adobe URW, but found nothing. Could you give
me some hints?

>> and leave the user no choice about which variant (adobe, urw) to use.
>
> The choice is made with a new typescript. This is the common procedure
> when a new font is installed. 

I am *not* talking about new fonts! I am talking about some base
fonts that are shipped (or better: not shipped) with the TeX system.

> So, if you have Adobe Palatino then install it as you did for other
> fonnts too. But, stop! Sorry, there are always entries in the
> current pdfTeX MAP-file that map your Adobe fonts back to URW
> variants. So, first you to have edit the MAP-file. 

This is what the mapfile is for!?!




Patrick

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 09:31 AM 3/13/2003 +0100, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> > the MAP-file is a nice place for the real font selection.
>
>I agree with that. (Did you mean it this way?)

hm, i disagree -) unless you keep your map files with your specific styles 
/ projects

> > How should i tell "normal" users that their font-selection from the
> > document is overwriten since some stupid and wrong decisions have
> > been made in the past.
>
>That is easy: You don't have the real helvetica? Then your dvi
>processor (or pdfTeX) switches back to a substitution. This is the
>way every printer works, that don't have the Linotype fonts built in.

but, subsitutions means ugly results, which means ugly docs, which gives 
tex a bad reputation

>1) the user: he or she requests the typescript [times][..]. What does
>    he want? URW? Or what? IMO I request Times-Roman, and not a
>    substitue.

This is a real tricky area, there are so many times out that if you are not 
specific and embed them (in graphics, docs, etc) you end up in troubles. We 
have a few thousand Corel Draw files, mae on a win95 machine long ago, and 
cannot even open them because the font names changed (distiller 2 accepted 
the eps, distiller 5 doesn't)

>The way with current ConTeXt it is now: I ask for Helvetica and get
>Nimbus Sans. There is no way around this.

unless you map the names alternatively, which you will do for us; just 
prepare the lot and we can discuss it in bremen

{if tex was less powerfull with math/fonts, live would be so much more easy]

Hans
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Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 04:43 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

>None that I know of. But this is IMHO irelevant: the current TeX
>practice is:
>
>1) TeX macro package (aka LaTeX ;-) asks for "Adobe Helvetica", it
>    gets the font metrics from "phv....tfm". Then, in the map files
>    the users decides whether to use the original adobe fonts or the
>    substitues.

Right, and that is why so many docs look bad! Those metrics differ. The 
same for times: adobe times metrics even differ/change over time (nelson 
beebe has done some excellent research on this; see pdftex mail archives); 
this is the main reason why i stick to urw times and palatino etc. Also, 
they go well with math times (tx) and math palatino (px).

>2) TeX macro package (aka ConTeXt ;-) asks for "URW Nimbus Sans"
>    a) on TeXlive (and perhaps any other I don't kown of) it gets the
>       metrics from "uhv....tfm". Then, in the map files the user has
>       no choice; the dvi/pdf driver should take Nimbus Sans.

well, context users should have gs on their system anyway since it's a 
great tool for previewing (in th eprocess of stylewriting).

>    b) on teTeX (+...?) with some special mappings it gets the
>       "phv....tfm" metrics. Then see above at 1).
>
>I think it is wrong behaviour to explicitly ask for the substitution
>and leave the user no choice about which variant (adobe, urw) to use.

hm, but you can of course make a typescript: berry-adobe

> > concerning the broken german ss: the polish font gurus (you'll meet
> > them at the dante meeting) have made extended versions of those urw
> > fonts, so maybe that will help. [the normal urw also don't have
> > ogoneked glyphs]
>
>Well, concerning the ss: Just install the Adobe Helvetica (free) and
>that's it (except for patching ConTeXt ;-)

well, as far as i know adobe stopped adding the famou s15 to distributions; 
also, beware: acrobat will replace helvetica etc by the system specific 
preference, which of course has different metrics (arial on windows), and 
again, is one reason why files start looking real ugly.

so, i play safe, but as said, if you provide additional typescripts ...

Hans
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Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:

Hello Hans and others,

>>1) TeX macro package (aka LaTeX ;-) asks for "Adobe Helvetica", it
>>    gets the font metrics from "phv....tfm". Then, in the map files
>>    the users decides whether to use the original adobe fonts or the
>>    substitues.
>
> Right, and that is why so many docs look bad! Those metrics
> differ. 

But they would not look better if you use NimbusSans! (Germandbls)

> The same for times: adobe times metrics even differ/change over time
> (nelson beebe has done some excellent research on this; see pdftex
> mail archives); 

Does anybody have a pointer to this? I haven't found it.

> this is the main reason why i stick to urw times and palatino
> etc. Also, they go well with math times (tx) and math palatino (px).
>
>>2) TeX macro package (aka ConTeXt ;-) asks for "URW Nimbus Sans"
>>    a) on TeXlive (and perhaps any other I don't kown of) it gets the
>>       metrics from "uhv....tfm". Then, in the map files the user has
>>       no choice; the dvi/pdf driver should take Nimbus Sans.
>
> well, context users should have gs on their system anyway since it's a
> great tool for previewing (in th eprocess of stylewriting).

It is not a matter of having gs installed or not. Since TeX is just
looking for the tfm files, you need them. But is there any TeX System
with the tfm file for the urw variants besides TeXlive? TeTeX doesn't
have 'em and teTeX is widely distributed. 

The pfb files from urw are shipped with TeXlive and TeTeX.
 

>>    b) on teTeX (+...?) with some special mappings it gets the
>>       "phv....tfm" metrics. Then see above at 1).
>>
>>I think it is wrong behaviour to explicitly ask for the substitution
>>and leave the user no choice about which variant (adobe, urw) to use.
>
> hm, but you can of course make a typescript: berry-adobe


Then the mapping (internally) would be 

Helvetica -> uhv... -> phv

I think that this is a useable workaround.

>> > concerning the broken german ss: the polish font gurus (you'll meet
>> > them at the dante meeting) have made extended versions of those urw
>> > fonts, so maybe that will help. [the normal urw also don't have
>> > ogoneked glyphs]
>>
>>Well, concerning the ss: Just install the Adobe Helvetica (free) and
>>that's it (except for patching ConTeXt ;-)
>

> well, as far as i know adobe stopped adding the famou s15 to
> distributions; 

Right. There are old acroread versions on the adobe site that still
have them.

> also, beware: acrobat will replace helvetica etc by the system
> specific preference, which of course has different metrics (arial on
> windows), and again, is one reason why files start looking real
> ugly.

But this might still be better then the Nimbus Sans?

> so, i play safe, but as said, if you provide additional typescripts ...

OK. I'll do so. I guess I name it adobekb.

Patrick

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 09:54 AM 3/13/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>It is not a matter of having gs installed or not. Since TeX is just
>looking for the tfm files, you need them. But is there any TeX System
>with the tfm file for the urw variants besides TeXlive? TeTeX doesn't
>have 'em and teTeX is widely distributed.

so we have to convince thomas/sebastian/fabrice/gerben to add them


>The pfb files from urw are shipped with TeXlive and TeTeX.

what is the use of pfb's without the tfm's

 > hm, but you can of course make a typescript: berry-adobe

>Then the mapping (internally) would be
>
>Helvetica -> uhv... -> phv

>I think that this is a useable workaround.

or directly Helvetica -> phv by an typescript that overloads

 > OK. I'll do so. I guess I name it adobekb.

ok
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Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[John Culleton]

On Thursday 13 March 2003 07:37 am, Hans Hagen wrote:

(snip)
Is it possible to take a deep breath and go back to the starting point, the 
TeX primitive \font? It allows one to name a specific font as listed in e.g.
psfonts.map or some other designated mapping file. Control is absolute. You 
specify the font and if it is listed and installed you get it, in the size 
you specify.  As a practical matter I seldom need a font in  more than two 
sizes, and if I do then I can just dupe the \font statement, change the name 
and change the size parameter. Unfortunately Context has a much more 
elaborate, indirect and confusing (to me at least) mechanism embedded. 

Now, starting from this \font base, how do we add features without losing 
simplicity and basic control?  Stated another way, how can one create 
\font statements and alias them into the Context font handling system without
too much grief?

Fonts are the most troublesome aspect of TeX in all versions, from plain 
TeX on forward.  The mission is not to add complexity, difficulty and 
confusion but to reduce them. We need a simpler way to install fonts and a
simpler and more direct way to call for them. 

IMHO of course.

John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters
 

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:07 AM 3/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thursday 13 March 2003 07:37 am, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>(snip)
>Is it possible to take a deep breath and go back to the starting point, the
>TeX primitive \font? It allows one to name a specific font as listed in e.g.
>psfonts.map or some other designated mapping file. Control is absolute. You
>specify the font and if it is listed and installed you get it, in the size
>you specify.  As a practical matter I seldom need a font in  more than two
>sizes, and if I do then I can just dupe the \font statement, change the name
>and change the size parameter. Unfortunately Context has a much more
>elaborate, indirect and confusing (to me at least) mechanism embedded.
>
>Now, starting from this \font base, how do we add features without losing
>simplicity and basic control?  Stated another way, how can one create
>\font statements and alias them into the Context font handling system without
>too much grief?

\definefont[whatever][somename at somesize] \whatever

[or slightly more extensive (see chinese, symbols etc, for adaptive 
definitions)]

>Fonts are the most troublesome aspect of TeX in all versions, from plain
>TeX on forward.  The mission is not to add complexity, difficulty and
>confusion but to reduce them. We need a simpler way to install fonts and a
>simpler and more direct way to call for them.
>
>IMHO of course.

If you stick to english, fonts are less a problem since you can stick to 
tex's default encoding or whatever is at hand; however, it happens that 
most of us use more extensive char sets, and that each language has its own 
patterns, encodings, alternative glyphs etc.

Also, as soon as math shows up, one needs a consistent sub subsub system, 
so this adds to the complication.

And then, users want to combine fonts from different verdors, so we get 
typefaces (in context) and relative scaling, and specific interlinespace, 
and ... and ...



Hans
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Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:

Hello,


>>The pfb files from urw are shipped with TeXlive and TeTeX.
>
> what is the use of pfb's without the tfm's

Used for substituion, I guess. pdftex will include those then. I
takes metrics from p* and includes u*.

>  > hm, but you can of course make a typescript: berry-adobe

OK, done. Still in testing state. 

>>I think that this is a useable workaround.
>
> or directly Helvetica -> phv by an typescript that overloads

I am still not sure how to do this. But I had no close look at the
type-* files yet.

Patrick

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 07:05 PM 3/21/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>Used for substituion, I guess. pdftex will include those then. I
>takes metrics from p* and includes u*.

it may be more complicates, esp if there wre virtual fonts involved, in 
which case tex uses a file "abc.tfm" and pdftex (dvips) also uses a vf file 
"def.vf" ; it's for this reason that i let texfont use the same names 
prefixed with raw, so that at least i *know* what happens without the need 
to look into the tfm/vf files

Hans
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Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Right, and that is why so many docs look bad! Those metrics differ. 
> The same for times: adobe times metrics even differ/change over time 
> (nelson beebe has done some excellent research on this; see pdftex 
> mail archives); this is the main reason why i stick to urw times and 
> palatino etc. Also, they go well with math times (tx) and math 
> palatino (px).

Even worse with some Linotype fonts: They even changed the encoding 
without changing
the name on "Linotype Gold 6". Ok, now it's fixed, but only after some 
firms refused
to pay their ten thousand euro licenses for a software that only causes 
trouble...

> well, as far as i know adobe stopped adding the famous 15 to 
> distributions; also, beware: acrobat will replace helvetica etc by the 
> system specific preference, which of course has different metrics 
> (arial on windows), and again, is one reason why files start looking 
> real ugly.

No, not system specific: Acrobat is delivered with Arial, TimesNewRoman 
etc. even for Macintosh! (since Acrobat 4)

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
-- 
www.fiee.net/texnique/

Re: Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

>> then, how many people do have the adobe palatino's?
> None that I know of.

You know me. ;-)
(Ok, I got them only at work.)

>> concerning the broken german ss: the polish font gurus (you'll meet
>> them at the dante meeting) have made extended versions of those urw
>> fonts, so maybe that will help. [the normal urw also don't have
>> ogoneked glyphs]

I very hope that they did ask URW before -- AFAIK they aren't public 
domain
or so but only freeware. And it would be a pity if they wouldn't allowed
to spread their work.

> Well, concerning the ss: Just install the Adobe Helvetica (free) and
> that's it (except for patching ConTeXt ;-)

Helvetica belongs to the standard PS fonts as Palatino does,
but none of them is free! At Adobe the standard fonts are a bit
less costly than other, but nevertheless to pay.
Ok, there are several possibilities to get at least the standard
13 from an older Acrobat or so...


Grüßlis vom Hraban!
-- 
www.fiee.net/texnique/

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Patrick Gundlach]

Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net> writes:

Hello Henning,

>> Well, concerning the ss: Just install the Adobe Helvetica (free) and
>> that's it (except for patching ConTeXt ;-)
>
> Helvetica belongs to the standard PS fonts as Palatino does,
> but none of them is free! At Adobe the standard fonts are a bit
> less costly than other, but nevertheless to pay.

> Ok, there are several possibilities to get at least the standard
> 13 from an older Acrobat or so...

that is what I meant. And I was talking only about Helvetica.

Greetings,

Patrick

Re: Fonts again in ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 02:04 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>It is clearer: the first bit gives the encoding and the latter bit is the
>name of the file containign the glyphs (uplr8a.pfb). OTOH since LaTeX already
>creates a lot of font-mess, I do agree that there is no need to add more to
>the trouble already there. I would like to see a few sym-links (does Windows
>have something like that?) to add a few names to the tree to make sure
>everything works as planned.

the tricky part is in slanted, extended and caps'd fonts, where there is no 
distinction between instances in psfnss, which is why context has more 
verbose names; also, most of the fonts we use here (in projects) are not 
free, not in the texmf tree, and i have no time (or spirit) to sort out how 
they should be reduced to 2+2+2+2 char names; so, this iw why the berry 
typescripts permit you to use the rare texmf-tree names, while additional 
fonts can follow the more verbose scheme (unless of course one sorts out 
the funny short name and names the fonts manually).

Hans


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Re: s-mag-01

[Adam Lindsay]

Bruce D'Arcus said this at Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:34:08 -0500:

>
>On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:00  AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>>
>>> Also, IIRC, shouldn't the grey border surround the entire page, and 
>>> extend to the edge?  I am getting a thinner border in the shape of an 
>>> "L," with white space at the page edge.
>>
>> works ok here, puzzled

Bruce, did you try opening the file in Acrobat? It's based on a very nice
2-page spread layout, and the page structure is immediately apparent once
you see it that way.

>On this, the only thing I changed was to use a different font, since 
>palatino doesn't seem to work from ConTeXt in my new installation.

One word: texfont.
It took me a while to figure out how to actually use it on my MacOSX
(TeXLive) install, but it works very nicely, once you figure out a couple
stumbling blocks. I actually wrote a My Way tutorial on it, but it ended
up being a bit too cranky. Hans took it more as a bug report, and said
he'd work on some of the issues I brought up.

So I'm not sure whether I should release it as-is, or if I should wait
for texfont to change.

>I know this was discussed previously, but don't remember the bottomline 
>point.  Shouldn't these fonts that are included with teTeX and TeXLive 
>just work in ConTeXt, without needing any intervention by the user?  If 
>yes, whose responsibility is this?  Am using Gerben Wierda's OS X 
>installer, but have a feeling this isn't his problem.  Or maybe it is?

basically what I did was:
set teTeX = /usr/local/teTeX  # my tcsh setting of the root tex install

cd $teTeX    # wherever you have your root tetex directory
sudo chgrp -R admin texmf-local  # make your texlocal directory
sudo chmod -R g+w texmf-local    # group-writeable to facilititate changes

cd texmf/fonts   
        # copy the fonts into the local font directory for munging the names
cp -R afm tfm type1 vf ../../texmf-local/fonts/
cd ../../texmf-local/fonts/afm
mv bit bitstrea   # correct a TeXLive 7 naming bug
gunzip -r *       # I think these are shipped as gzipped files
sudo texhash

cd      # or to a safe home directory where temp files can be created
# next command is all one line:
texfont $teTeX/texmf/context/data/type-tmf.dat --en=texnansi
     --fontroot=$teTeX/texmf-local --install --makepath


it'll make a bunch of font charts in the form of .tex files. To run these
(and use the palatino fonts in s-mag) you ought to have
\autoloadmapfiletrue in your cont-sys.tex file.

I *think* that'll get you started. Good luck...

adam


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Re: s-mag-01

[Hans Hagen]

At 03:02 PM 3/11/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>So I'm not sure whether I should release it as-is, or if I should wait
>for texfont to change.

just release it and update it when i did the patch (which actually reminds 
me that i need to patch; sorry, too busy catching up with stabelizing some 
nasty features)

Hans
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Re: s-mag-01

[Patrick Gundlach]

"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> writes:

> Hans, are you saying anyone using this to produce a document ought to
> keep the title specified in the style (which here seems to be {Zero
> Issue}?  In any case, this is confusing (at least to me)...

The user variant has the title "My Way". No number.

> Also, IIRC, shouldn't the grey border surround the entire page, and
> extend to the edge?  I am getting a thinner border in the shape of an
> "L," with white space at the page edge.

with the following document I get a simple magazine text:
==================================================
\setupencoding[default=8r]
\usetypescript[tetex][\defaultencoding]
\usemodule[mag-01] 

\setvariables
  [magazine]
  [title={Nonsense in Typography},
   author=A.~U.~Thor,
   ]

\startbuffer[abstract] 
\input knuth
\stopbuffer

\starttext \setups [titlepage] \setups [title] 
\section{Preface}
\input knuth

\section{Useless}
\input tufte
\stoptext
==================================================

-- 
Mehr Buchstaben - mehr Spass

Re: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 05:25 PM 3/10/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello list,
>
>I wish to bring the discussion again on displayed material.
>Display material is material that conceptually belongs to a
>paragraphs but typographically breaks it. After the display, the
>paragraph can continue or not. In ConTeXt, there are many things
>which should be considered displayed material: formulas,
>enumerations and other itemgroups, quotations, etc. Every
>start/stop pair that begins a new paragraph should actually be a
>displayed area. In ConTeXt, one can achieve such result by using
>[intentnext=yes] or [indentnext=no] on a case-by-case basis,
>depending on whether the start/stop pair is supposed to start a
>new paragraph or not. Of course, this "manual" way to do the thing
>goes against the general principle that the computer is supposed
>to do as much of the job as possible, by itself. I therefore wish
>to urge Hans to implement a new indentnext option, "auto", which
>should give a behaviour similar to the one shown on this example:

well it's on my todo list to provide this option, but first i need to 
finish a couple of grid things; actually live would be much easier if there 
wer \bpar \epar commands -)

Hans
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Re: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 05:25 PM 3/10/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>to do as much of the job as possible, by itself. I therefore wish
>to urge Hans to implement a new indentnext option, "auto", which
>should give a behaviour similar to the one shown on this example:

btw, here are shorter defs:

\def\startdisplay
   {\relax\ifvmode\else\endgraf\noindent\fi\ignorespaces}

\def\stopdisplay
   {\par\doifnextcharelse\par\donothing\noindent}

watch the \relax (prevents lookahead) and \doifnextcharelse

anyway,

isn't a \stopdisplay followed by an empty line still supposed to be a 
display?, so the full model is:

\startparagraph

   text or not

   \startdisplay

   \stopdisplay

    text or not

\stopparagraph

the startparagraph and stopparagraph can be kind of automatic, but that's 
just an added bonus for those who want to use empty lines as signals 
(something which is not common, for instance in xml where proper tagging 
takes place).

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[2]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:
HH> btw, here are shorter defs:

HH> \def\startdisplay
HH>    {\relax\ifvmode\else\endgraf\noindent\fi\ignorespaces}

HH> \def\stopdisplay
HH>    {\par\doifnextcharelse\par\donothing\noindent}

HH> watch the \relax (prevents lookahead) and \doifnextcharelse

Good to know, thanks. BTW, have you had a look at the patches I
submitted to the list around 10pm yesterday? What do you think of
them?

HH> anyway,

HH> isn't a \stopdisplay followed by an empty line still supposed to be a
HH> display?

Yes it is, and it conceptually belongs to the previous paragraph,
but the following text is not part of the same paragraph and
should therefore start with indentation.

HH> , so the full model is:

HH> \startparagraph

HH>    text or not

HH>    \startdisplay

HH>    \stopdisplay

HH>     text or not

HH> \stopparagraph

HH> the startparagraph and stopparagraph can be kind of automatic, but that's
HH> just an added bonus for those who want to use empty lines as signals
HH> (something which is not common, for instance in xml where proper tagging
HH> takes place).

Anything that gives a "paragraph end" should work. This is why in
the patches I submitted I made a small change: it suffices to give
a \noindent, regardless of what comes after, so that:

(1) if paragraph doesn't end (by any mean: no \par, no empty line,
no </para>), the next text will typographically belong to the same
paragraph (i.e. will not be indented)

(2) if paragraph ends (by any mean: \par, empty line, </para>),
the next text will be indented, since the paragraph end will
"absorb" the \noindent.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[2]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 11:08 AM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:
>HH> btw, here are shorter defs:
>
>HH> \def\startdisplay
>HH>    {\relax\ifvmode\else\endgraf\noindent\fi\ignorespaces}
>
>HH> \def\stopdisplay
>HH>    {\par\doifnextcharelse\par\donothing\noindent}
>
>HH> watch the \relax (prevents lookahead) and \doifnextcharelse
>
>Good to know, thanks. BTW, have you had a look at the patches I
>submitted to the list around 10pm yesterday? What do you think of
>them?

What patch? Yesterday around 10 i was deparately trying to figure out why 
our (linux) mail server was infected by a spammer (some kind of sendmail 
bug combined with pop3 things) and in the process (took me the whole 
morning) probably lost some mails.

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[3]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:
HH> What patch? Yesterday around 10 i was deparately trying to figure out why
HH> our (linux) mail server was infected by a spammer (some kind of sendmail
HH> bug combined with pop3 things) and in the process (took me the whole
HH> morning) probably lost some mails.

Ok, here it is:

"""
Anyway, I built a "quick and dirty" patch which seems to work for
most environments which, I think, require it: itemgroups,
definitions, formulas, verbatim. You can put it in your cont-loc
between \unprotect ... \protect pairs:

=== BEGIN PATCH ===
\startvariables all
    auto: auto
\stopvariables

\def\@@stopdefinitie#1%
  {\par
   \dostopattributes
   \endgroup
   \getvalue{\??dd#1\c!na}%
   \egroup % temporary hack
   \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
   \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
 
\def\stopitemgroup
  {\iftextitems
     \removeunwantedspaces\space\ignorespaces
   \else
     \par
   \fi
   \ifnum\itemcolumndepth=\zerocount \dolistreference \fi % beware !
   \iffirstlist \else \endgroup \fi % toegevoegd, eerste \som opent groep
   \ifnum\itemcolumndepth=\itemlevel\relax
     \stopkolommen
     \doglobal\newcounter\itemcolumndepth
     \getitemparameter\itemlevel\c!na
   \else
     \ifnum\itemlevel=\plusone
       \doitembreak\allowbreak           % toegevoegd
       \getitemparameter1\c!na
       \doif\@@oospringvolgendein\v!nee\noindentation
       \doif\@@oospringvolgendein\v!auto\noindent
     \fi
   \fi
   \endgroup
   \doglobal\decrement(\itemlevel,\itemincrement)%
   \egroup}

\def\dostopformula
  {\doplaceformulanumber
   \getvalue{\e!stop\getvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!variant}\e!formule}%
    \resetlastlinewidth
    \nonoindentation
    \doifvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
    \doifvalue{\??fm\currentformula\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent
    \egroup}

\def\dostoptyping#1%
  {\stopverbatimcolor
     \stopopelkaar  % includes \egroup
        \getvalue{\??tp#1\c!na}%
           \doifvalue{\??tp#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
           \doifvalue{\??tp#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
            
=== END PATCH ===

Remember to issue the following instructions:

\setupformulas[indentnext=auto]
\setupitemgroups[indentnext=auto]

to make it work. No need to regenerate the formats (you may need
to refresh the filename database if you didn't have a cont-loc.tex
before that). Hans, can we hope for this to go into the core for
the next beta?

Note: while I think it should be done for quotations as well, this
seems to be a feature "in development" so I won't touch it for
now.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[3]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:47 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>Anyway, I built a "quick and dirty" patch which seems to work for
>most environments which, I think, require it: itemgroups,
>definitions, formulas, verbatim. You can put it in your cont-loc
>between \unprotect ... \protect pairs:

This is dangerous! better put it into cont-min.tex and load that one in 
yoru cont-sys.tex file

   \readfile{yourfile}\donothing\donothing

or so. Cont-loc.tex is a personal extensions (there i put patches that i 
test for some time before they make it into the kernel; i also have a 
cont-exp for experiment, like dirty speedups); since these file are not 
distributed, there is a danger in them being on someones system and being 
loaded.

Also, something:

   \overloaded \def \somehack ...

may warn you for such dangers.

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[4]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> At 12:47 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>>Anyway, I built a "quick and dirty" patch which seems to work for
>>most environments which, I think, require it: itemgroups,
>>definitions, formulas, verbatim. You can put it in your cont-loc
>>between \unprotect ... \protect pairs:

HH> This is dangerous! better put it into cont-min.tex and load that one in
HH> yoru cont-sys.tex file

HH>    \readfile{yourfile}\donothing\donothing

HH> or so. Cont-loc.tex is a personal extensions (there i put patches that i
HH> test for some time before they make it into the kernel; i also have a
HH> cont-exp for experiment, like dirty speedups); since these file are not
HH> distributed, there is a danger in them being on someones system and being
HH> loaded.

I thought that cont-new was for the temporary patches and cont-loc
for the local extensions? Since cont-loc is not distributed with
the normal ConTeXt distribution, it makes sense to put it there,
doesn't it?

HH> Also, something:

HH>    \overloaded \def \somehack ...

HH> may warn you for such dangers.

That's good to know.

HH> \def\synchronizeindentation
HH>    {%
HH>     \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
HH>     \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
HH>    }%
HH> 
HH> saves keying and also provides a hook

Right :) I expect to see it in the core for the next release! ;)

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[4]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 06:04 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>HH> \def\synchronizeindentation
>HH>    {%
>HH>     \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
>HH>     \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
>HH>    }%
>HH>
>HH> saves keying and also provides a hook
>
>Right :) I expect to see it in the core for the next release! ;)

Ha, i found out that i already had a \checknextindentation in my cont-loc 
(for different purposes -)

anyhow, i'll provide you the hook

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[5]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Wednesday, March 12, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:

>>Right :) I expect to see it in the core for the next release! ;)

HH> Ha, i found out that i already had a
HH> \checknextindentation in my cont-loc 
HH> (for different purposes -)

HH> anyhow, i'll provide you the hook

Even better, put the indentnext=auto code in the core :)

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[5]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:36 AM 3/13/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Wednesday, March 12, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:
>
> >>Right :) I expect to see it in the core for the next release! ;)
>
>HH> Ha, i found out that i already had a
>HH> \checknextindentation in my cont-loc
>HH> (for different purposes -)
>
>HH> anyhow, i'll provide you the hook
>
>Even better, put the indentnext=auto code in the core :)

don't hurry too much, if you define yourself a \autoindentation macro 
you'll have indentnext=auto

Hans

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[3]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:47 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

\def\synchronizeindentation
   {%
>   \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!nee\noindentation
>    \doifvalue{\??dd#1\c!springvolgendein}\v!auto\noindent}
   }%

saves keying and also provides a hook

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[3]: Displayed material, again

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:47 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>=== BEGIN PATCH ===
>\startvariables all
>     auto: auto
>\stopvariables

ok, added, does not hurt to have that key (althougj in this case 'display' 
i smore adequate

>\def\@@stopdefinitie#1%
>\def\stopitemgroup
>\def\dostopformula
>\def\dostoptyping#1%

simple test replaced by \(do)checknextindentation

CORE-ITM.TEX:
CORE-MAT.TEX:
CORE-MIS.TEX:
CORE-SEC.TEX:
CORE-SPA.TEX:
CORE-VER.TEX:
PAGE-ONE.TEX:
PAGE-SET.TEX:

>before that). Hans, can we hope for this to go into the core for
>the next beta?

i'll upload a beta for you to test

>Note: while I think it should be done for quotations as well, this
>seems to be a feature "in development" so I won't touch it for
>now.

added anyway

also, auto invokes \autoindentation, so for the moment you have to hook you 
rown code in there (\relax by default)

[later i will look into a proper display something; needs to work ok with 
the nex par hooks in cont-new]

happy indenting

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[4]: Displayed material, again

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Wednesday, March 12, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> At 12:47 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>>=== BEGIN PATCH ===
>>\startvariables all
>>     auto: auto
>>\stopvariables

HH> ok, added, does not hurt to have that key (althougj in this case 'display'
HH> i smore adequate

I don't think so. The material is displayed anyway. The key value
should simply make a different from yes/no (i.e. "decide
automatically"), it doesn't change the "logical" nature of the
block ... but anyway :)

HH> i'll upload a beta for you to test

Thanks :)

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta