LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

Hi!

LMTX and MkIV behave differently if dots are used in the file
name. Example:

  printf '%s\n' '\starttext\null\stoptext' > foo.10.tex && context foo.10.tex

MkIV: → foo.10.pdf
LMTX: → foo.pdf

Is this intentional?

This is LuaMetaTeX, Version 2.06.05
current version: 2020.05.25 23:39

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/28/2020 2:49 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> LMTX and MkIV behave differently if dots are used in the file
> name. Example:
> 
>    printf '%s\n' '\starttext\null\stoptext' > foo.10.tex && context foo.10.tex
> 
> MkIV: → foo.10.pdf
> LMTX: → foo.pdf
> 
> Is this intentional?

consider it to be so

Hans

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:33:19 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> On 5/28/2020 2:49 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > LMTX and MkIV behave differently if dots are used in the file
> > name. Example:
> > 
> >    printf '%s\n' '\starttext\null\stoptext' > foo.10.tex && context
> > foo.10.tex
> > 
> > MkIV: → foo.10.pdf
> > LMTX: → foo.pdf
> > 
> > Is this intentional?  
> 
> consider it to be so

That's unfortunate.

1) The editor workflow with simple suffix replacement .tex → .pdf to
   open the corresponding PDF file doesn't work any more with lmtx.
   New logic is needed to find the correct pdf file name.

2) A project (of mine) that uses item numbers as file names
   (containing dots) compile to the same pdf:

   MkIV (everything's predictable and fine):
   10.10.10.tex → 10.10.10.pdf
   10.10.11.tex → 10.10.11.pdf
   11.10.11.tex → 11.10.11.pdf

   LMTX:
   10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
   10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
   11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)

MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:33:19 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> On 5/28/2020 2:49 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > LMTX and MkIV behave differently if dots are used in the file
> > name. Example:
> > 
> >    printf '%s\n' '\starttext\null\stoptext' > foo.10.tex && context
> > foo.10.tex
> > 
> > MkIV: → foo.10.pdf
> > LMTX: → foo.pdf
> > 
> > Is this intentional?  
> 
> consider it to be so

That's unfortunate.

1) The editor workflow with simple suffix replacement .tex → .pdf to
   open the corresponding PDF file doesn't work any more with lmtx.
   New logic is needed to find the correct pdf file name.

2) A project (of mine) that uses item numbers as file names
   (containing dots) compile to the same pdf:

   MkIV (everything's predictable and fine):
   10.10.10.tex → 10.10.10.pdf
   10.10.11.tex → 10.10.11.pdf
   11.10.11.tex → 11.10.11.pdf

   LMTX:
   10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
   10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
   11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)

MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/28/2020 5:59 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:33:19 +0200
> Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
>> On 5/28/2020 2:49 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> LMTX and MkIV behave differently if dots are used in the file
>>> name. Example:
>>>
>>>     printf '%s\n' '\starttext\null\stoptext' > foo.10.tex && context
>>> foo.10.tex
>>>
>>> MkIV: → foo.10.pdf
>>> LMTX: → foo.pdf
>>>
>>> Is this intentional?
>>
>> consider it to be so
> 
> That's unfortunate.
> 
> 1) The editor workflow with simple suffix replacement .tex → .pdf to
>     open the corresponding PDF file doesn't work any more with lmtx.
>     New logic is needed to find the correct pdf file name.
> 
> 2) A project (of mine) that uses item numbers as file names
>     (containing dots) compile to the same pdf:
> 
>     MkIV (everything's predictable and fine):
>     10.10.10.tex → 10.10.10.pdf
>     10.10.11.tex → 10.10.11.pdf
>     11.10.11.tex → 11.10.11.pdf
> 
>     LMTX:
>     10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
>     10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
>     11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)
> 
> MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.
I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some other 
(neat) stuff and run tests.

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Thu, 28 May 2020 18:18:51 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> >     MkIV (everything's predictable and fine):
> >     10.10.10.tex → 10.10.10.pdf
> >     10.10.11.tex → 10.10.11.pdf
> >     11.10.11.tex → 11.10.11.pdf
> > 
> >     LMTX:
> >     10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
> >     10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
> >     11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)
> > 
> > MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.  
> I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some
> other (neat) stuff and run tests.

OK, thanks. No hurry. The production projects run on some oldish
2019 MkIVs anyway. I'm trying to get my feet wet with lmtx and run
it on some projects to check how usable and compatible it is.

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/28/2020 8:31 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 2020 18:18:51 +0200
> Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
>>>      MkIV (everything's predictable and fine):
>>>      10.10.10.tex → 10.10.10.pdf
>>>      10.10.11.tex → 10.10.11.pdf
>>>      11.10.11.tex → 11.10.11.pdf
>>>
>>>      LMTX:
>>>      10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
>>>      10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
>>>      11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)
>>>
>>> MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.
>> I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some
>> other (neat) stuff and run tests.
> 
> OK, thanks. No hurry. The production projects run on some oldish
> 2019 MkIVs anyway. I'm trying to get my feet wet with lmtx and run
> it on some projects to check how usable and compatible it is.
It should be compatible, although at some point there will be 
functionality that is only in lmtx. Okay, metapost is an exception, 
because there is a lot in lmtx that is not in mkiv, but that's a 
separate subsystem anyway.

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Thu, 28 May 2020 18:18:51 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> >     LMTX:
> >     10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
> >     10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
> >     11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)

I've checked again with 2021.07.06 18:49 LMTX

  10.10.10.tex → 10.10.pdf + 10.log
  10.10.11.tex → 10.10.pdf (file 10.10.pdf and 10.log are over-written)
  11.10.11.tex → 11.10.pdf

> > MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.  
> I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some
> other (neat) stuff and run tests.

A gentle reminder.

As by my tests, something has changed in the last months, but the
behaviour is still weird (e.g. log files differ from pdf file or
10.10.10.tex results in 10.10.pdf).

Is there a chance you can look at that at some point?

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[T. Kurt Bond]

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This is something that has caused me problems in the past, too.

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 4:51 PM Marco Patzer <lists@homerow.info> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 May 2020 18:18:51 +0200
> Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> > >     LMTX:
> > >     10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
> > >     10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
> > >     11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)
>
> I've checked again with 2021.07.06 18:49 LMTX
>
>   10.10.10.tex → 10.10.pdf + 10.log
>   10.10.11.tex → 10.10.pdf (file 10.10.pdf and 10.log are over-written)
>   11.10.11.tex → 11.10.pdf
>
> > > MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.
> > I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some
> > other (neat) stuff and run tests.
>
> A gentle reminder.
>
> As by my tests, something has changed in the last months, but the
> behaviour is still weird (e.g. log files differ from pdf file or
> 10.10.10.tex results in 10.10.pdf).
>
> Is there a chance you can look at that at some point?
>
> Marco
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>


-- 
T. Kurt Bond, tkurtbond@gmail.com, https://tkurtbond.github.io

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Alan Braslau]

Windows, I believe, does not take kindly to filenames containing
multiple dots.

Therefore, Hans never uses such filenames and does not expect them,
either, so I am not surprised that this yields unpredictable results.

An unfortunate side-effect of dealing with Windows.

Alan


On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 20:08:22 -0400
"T. Kurt Bond" <tkurtbond@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is something that has caused me problems in the past, too.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 4:51 PM Marco Patzer <lists@homerow.info>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 28 May 2020 18:18:51 +0200
> > Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >  
> > > >     LMTX:
> > > >     10.10.10.tex → 10.10 (not even a PDF suffix)
> > > >     10.10.11.tex → 10.10 (file 10.10 is over-written)
> > > >     11.10.11.tex → 11.10 (no suffix)  
> >
> > I've checked again with 2021.07.06 18:49 LMTX
> >
> >   10.10.10.tex → 10.10.pdf + 10.log
> >   10.10.11.tex → 10.10.pdf (file 10.10.pdf and 10.log are
> > over-written) 11.10.11.tex → 11.10.pdf
> >  
> > > > MkIV is way more predictable and consistent in that regard.  
> > > I'll look at it but not today ... first I need to play with some
> > > other (neat) stuff and run tests.  
> >
> > A gentle reminder.
> >
> > As by my tests, something has changed in the last months, but the
> > behaviour is still weird (e.g. log files differ from pdf file or
> > 10.10.10.tex results in 10.10.pdf).
> >
> > Is there a chance you can look at that at some point?
> >
> > Marco
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> > entry to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> >  
> 
> 

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:25:29 -0600 schrieb Alan Braslau:

> Windows, I believe, does not take kindly to filenames containing
> multiple dots.
> 
> Therefore, Hans never uses such filenames and does not expect them,
> either, so I am not surprised that this yields unpredictable results.
> 
> An unfortunate side-effect of dealing with Windows.

Sorry but this is nonsense. I have seen many files with lots of dots
in windows and it works fine.

I wouldn't do it in tex, but not because of the OS but because until
a few years you could run into problems with some tex applications
or macros which didn't expect many dots.  




-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
https://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:25:29 -0600
Alan Braslau <braslau.list@comcast.net> wrote:

Thank you for your reply.

> Windows, I believe, does not take kindly to filenames containing
> multiple dots.

Disclaimer: I don't use Windows, I know nothing about Windows. But I
downloaded a Windows 10 VM and fired it up, installed LMTX, created
a file (in the default editor):

  # file name: 10.10.10.tex
  \starttext
  foo
  \stoptext

Then I ran

install.bat
setpath.bat

# LMTX
context 10.10.10.tex
  → 10.10.pdf
  → 10.log

# MkIV
context --luatex 10.10.10.tex
  → 10.10.10.pdf
  → 10.10.10.log

So I can't confirm your findings. MkIV works exactly the same on a
vanilla Windows 10 VM than it does on a Unix system and produces
correct output files with multiple dots. No issues there.

> Therefore, Hans never uses such filenames and does not expect them,
> either, so I am not surprised that this yields unpredictable results.
> 
> An unfortunate side-effect of dealing with Windows.

My short test above seems to suggest that it's not an OS issue since
Unix and Windows behave exactly the same. MkIV (which seems to work
fine on Windows) as well as the LMTX issue. But maybe I did
something wrong there, in that case please let me know.

And Hans said “I'll look at it” a while back, so I just wanted to
send a reminder.

Since it worked in MkIV it looks like a regression. I mean it used
to work. Several of my projects rely on source files with multiple
dots. I know it's not common to have multiple dots, but I hope
there's chance it might be fixed.

But maybe Hans can chime in and clarify.

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/7/2021 10:13 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:

> But maybe Hans can chime in and clarify.
I have to check it but syffixes and tex are kind of special. It has 
nothing to do with operating systems (sorry for those who love to bash 
windows for it). Personally I always use a suffix and don't look into 
files without them. (On VMS we even had version numbers with the name, 
which was also nice.) That said:

- tex needs to make a log file and an output file (.log, .pdf and maybe 
more like .tuc)

- so, it determines a jobname, which is the input file with the suffix 
removed

- actually it adds a suffix .tex when there is none and then looks for 
that file

- in that respect, .10 is a suffix as is .foo or .pointless

- in tds/kpse/web2c there were flags for 'multiple suffixes' (which of 
course also introduces compatibility issues)

- as a side note: filenames are case sensitive unless the operating 
system makes them insensitive; this has long been yet another reason for 
bashing windows, but it looks like kpse/web2c now decided it's a good 
idea so there's also a flag (i think itis true by default) that enables 
insentivity (context always tried to be insensitive and mkiv/lmtx 
definitely is)

Now, to the issue of names like 10.11.12.13 ... here .13 is the suffix, 
like it or not, so in principle we then get

10.11.12.log
10.11.12.tuc
10.11.12.pdf

if not then indeed there is some issue. Now, although it's quite some 
work, one can think of seeing .13 as part of the filename, in which case 
the lookupe becomes

10.11.12.13.tex

but we can optionally first check for 10.11.12.13 ... however, because 
there are many possibel suffixes (.tex being one of them) we then get

10.11.12.13.log
10.11.12.13.tuc
10.11.12.13.pdf

but in the case of

10.11.12.13.tex

we get

10.11.12.13.tex.log
10.11.12.13.tex.tuc
10.11.12.13.tex.pdf

because there is no way to determine any longer that .tex is special 
(one can argue that .mk* also qualifies but what about .xml and all 
variants on that).

Al this means that personally I always stick to (1) lowercase filenames 
(2) with no spaces (3) only a-z, A-Z, 0-9, and - (4) always with a 
suffix ... it never gives issues. (If you ever had to deal with third 
party files, especially graphics made by third parties, you'd know that 
most problems come from bad filenames where for instance a single space 
or multiple spaces and/or funny mixes in case get unnoticed.)

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/7/2021 8:25 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> Windows, I believe, does not take kindly to filenames containing
> multiple dots.

windowes is very kind to multiple dots but it (normally) sees the last 
suffix as an indication of what file is it (other operating system needs 
some 'open' command while windows works with associations)

> Therefore, Hans never uses such filenames and does not expect them,
> either, so I am not surprised that this yields unpredictable results.

actually, mkiv will append a suffix for converted files, so foo.eps.pdf 
is made ... works ok

> An unfortunate side-effect of dealing with Windows.

more an unfortunate side effect of the way users and porograms construct 
filenames and expect systems that use some heuristic to deal with that 
to work fine (unless one accepts that foo.tex gets a foo.tex.log and 
foo.tex.pdf file as result)

(inconsistent font and file filenames can even make life even more 
misserable)

Hans

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Marco Patzer]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 10:34:32 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> Now, to the issue of names like 10.11.12.13 ... here .13 is the
> suffix, like it or not, so in principle we then get
> 
> 10.11.12.log
> 10.11.12.tuc
> 10.11.12.pdf

It's not that I use files without (.tex, .mkiv, ...) suffixes, but
your 10.11.12.13 example is processed by MkIV without problems:

10.11.12.pdf
10.11.12.tua
10.11.12.log

LMTX, however doesn't like it:

10.11.pdf
10.11.tua
10.log


> if not then indeed there is some issue.

According to my tests LMTX doesn't work like you describe it should.

> Now, although it's quite some 
> work, one can think of seeing .13 as part of the filename, in which
> case the lookupe becomes
> 
> 10.11.12.13.tex

Just to make it clear: I don't use files without .tex/.mkvi/etc.
suffix. So I don't expect 10.11.12.13 to work, but 10.11.12.tex
should in fact work as far as I understand.

Marco
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Alan Braslau]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 21:57:27 +0200
Ulrike Fischer <news3@nililand.de> wrote:

> Am Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:25:29 -0600 schrieb Alan Braslau:
> 
> > Windows, I believe, does not take kindly to filenames containing
> > multiple dots.
> > 
> > Therefore, Hans never uses such filenames and does not expect them,
> > either, so I am not surprised that this yields unpredictable
> > results.
> > 
> > An unfortunate side-effect of dealing with Windows.  
> 
> Sorry but this is nonsense. I have seen many files with lots of dots
> in windows and it works fine.

Not nonsense: some MS/Windows filesystems couldn't deal with multiple
dots in the filename. That my *now* be history, but wasn't.

What is clear is that (perhaps due to this legacy), many programs and
packages do not expect to find filenames having many dots. Indeed,
*some* filesystem specifications even use "." to delimit file system
hierarchy (similarly like / and \). Lua also uses this in table
specifications, as does MetaPost for token separation, not mentioning
structures in C (and C++). The bottom line is that using "." in a
filename is best to be avoided, as are spaces in order to avoid
surprises.

As to "nonsense" and "Windows bashing", give me a break!

(and for Hans, the VMS ";" version specification is a different
feature).

Alan
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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/8/2021 8:13 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:

> (and for Hans, the VMS ";" version specification is a different
> feature).
Sure, one being that one ran out of disk space (but there were enough 
unused accounts with simple passwords to take care of backups) but it 
would add an interesting challenge (probably some extra parameter in 
opening a file).

(btw, no tex on these vax machines, pretty unknown at that time so we 
rolled out our own ascii-art formatting / pagination)

Hans

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Re: LMTX: different output if dots are used in the file name

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/8/2021 3:38 PM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 10:34:32 +0200
> Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
>> Now, to the issue of names like 10.11.12.13 ... here .13 is the
>> suffix, like it or not, so in principle we then get
>>
>> 10.11.12.log
>> 10.11.12.tuc
>> 10.11.12.pdf
> 
> It's not that I use files without (.tex, .mkiv, ...) suffixes, but
> your 10.11.12.13 example is processed by MkIV without problems:
> 
> 10.11.12.pdf
> 10.11.12.tua
> 10.11.12.log

actually that's also not ok as it should be a .tuc file

> LMTX, however doesn't like it:
> 
> 10.11.pdf
> 10.11.tua
> 10.log
> 
> 
>> if not then indeed there is some issue.
> 
> According to my tests LMTX doesn't work like you describe it should.
i'll check it

(in retrospect tex could better have enforced a suffix and not fallback 
on .tex but i suppose the usage scenarios were hard to foresee let alone 
the restart-the-program-time-penalty when you forgot to add .tex)

Hans

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