Small caps?

Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

Hello. I'm a veritable noob to both TeX and ConTeXT, so please bear
with my ignorance. I request your kind guidance. (BTW as I use Indic
scripts a lot, my typesetting engine is XeTeX.)

I want to produce small caps like those I can get in LibreOffice by
doing Right Click > Character > Font Effects > Effects > Small
Capitals. Basically the capital letters would be shown in their
regular size and the small letters would be shown as small size
capital letters.

Using \sc seems to select a particular font and ignore my current font
selection. (I am using DejaVu Sans Condensed font.) \kap or \cap seems
to produce all small caps which is not what I want -- only the small
letters in the text should be shown as small caps and the capital
letters in the text should be left alone.

Can anyone please advise me what to do to get small caps in my current
font like in LibO and other popular GUI word-processing systems?

Thanks!

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 24.07.2012 um 21:11 schrieb Shriramana Sharma:

> Hello. I'm a veritable noob to both TeX and ConTeXT, so please bear
> with my ignorance. I request your kind guidance. (BTW as I use Indic
> scripts a lot, my typesetting engine is XeTeX.)
> 
> I want to produce small caps like those I can get in LibreOffice by
> doing Right Click > Character > Font Effects > Effects > Small
> Capitals. Basically the capital letters would be shown in their
> regular size and the small letters would be shown as small size
> capital letters.
> 
> Using \sc seems to select a particular font and ignore my current font
> selection. (I am using DejaVu Sans Condensed font.) \kap or \cap seems
> to produce all small caps which is not what I want -- only the small
> letters in the text should be shown as small caps and the capital
> letters in the text should be left alone.
> 
> Can anyone please advise me what to do to get small caps in my current
> font like in LibO and other popular GUI word-processing systems?

\definehighlight[smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]

\setupbodyfont[pagella]

\starttext

upright {\it italic} {\sc smallcaps}

upright {\it italic} {\it\setff{smallcaps}smallcaps}

upright {\it italic} {\it\smallcaps{smallcaps}}

\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:55 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
> \definehighlight[smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]

Hello and thanks for your help but even if I copy-paste your example
into TeXWorks and typeset it (remember, I'm using ConTeXT with XeTeX)
I get the error:

Undefined control sequence.
l.1 \definehighlight
                    [smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[Marco]

On 2012-07-25 Shriramana Sharma <samjnaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can anyone please advise me what to do to get small caps in my current
> font like in LibO and other popular GUI word-processing systems?

My guess is that DejaVu Sans Condensed has no small caps. That's why
you get the unexpected result. LibO might fake the small caps, which
should usually be avoided, since it often leads to typographically
bad results. If you need caps, select a font which provides them.

Marco


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Re: Small caps?

[Hans Hagen]

On 24-7-2012 21:29, Shriramana Sharma wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:55 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
>> \definehighlight[smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]
>
> Hello and thanks for your help but even if I copy-paste your example
> into TeXWorks and typeset it (remember, I'm using ConTeXT with XeTeX)
> I get the error:
>
> Undefined control sequence.
> l.1 \definehighlight
>                      [smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]

you probably run an ancient mkiv .. this command has been around for a 
while

Hans

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Re: Small caps?

[Khaled Hosny]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:21:22PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 24-7-2012 21:29, Shriramana Sharma wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:55 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
> ><schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>\definehighlight[smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]
> >
> >Hello and thanks for your help but even if I copy-paste your example
> >into TeXWorks and typeset it (remember, I'm using ConTeXT with XeTeX)
> >I get the error:
> >
> >Undefined control sequence.
> >l.1 \definehighlight
> >                     [smallcaps][style=\setff{smallcaps}]
> 
> you probably run an ancient mkiv .. this command has been around for
> a while

He is using XeTeX, no MkIV for him.

Regards,
 Khaled
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Re: Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

Thanks to all who replied.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Marco <netuse@lavabit.com> wrote:
> My guess is that DejaVu Sans Condensed has no small caps. That's why
> you get the unexpected result. LibO might fake the small caps, which
> should usually be avoided, since it often leads to typographically
> bad results. If you need caps, select a font which provides them.

Hi -- is there absolutely no way for obtaining these "fake small caps"
in ConTeXT? The thread
http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2008-July/010325.html seems to
contain some hints but they are fotr for LaTeX. I don't want to switch
to LaTeX just for this.

Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants" (from MS Word)
to be provided by TeX macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
system impose "super-duper" typography on users when they are willing
to settle for less?

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Shriramana Sharma wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Marco <netuse@lavabit.com> wrote:
>> My guess is that DejaVu Sans Condensed has no small caps. That's why
>> you get the unexpected result. LibO might fake the small caps, which
>> should usually be avoided, since it often leads to typographically
>> bad results. If you need caps, select a font which provides them.
>
> Hi -- is there absolutely no way for obtaining these "fake small caps"
> in ConTeXT? The thread
> http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2008-July/010325.html seems to
> contain some hints but they are fotr for LaTeX. I don't want to switch
> to LaTeX just for this.

See 
http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20060818.041218.86ea7e08.en.html

> Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
> not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants" (from MS Word)
> to be provided by TeX macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
> bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
> typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
> their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
> system impose "super-duper" typography on users when they are willing
> to settle for less?

Slightly modified version of the above macro:

\def\fakesmallcaps{\let\processword\dofakesmallcapped\processwords}
\def\dofakesmallcapped#1{\dostartfakesmallcapped#1\dostopfakesmallcapped}
\def\dostartfakesmallcapped#1#2\dostopfakesmallcapped{\cap{#1\cap{#2}}}

\starttext
\fakesmallcaps{Introduction Again}
\stoptext

(Stictly speaking, this is not faking small caps rather it is forcing the 
first letter of each work to be captial)

Aditya
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Re: Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

Hello Aditya and thanks for your help. However, the following file
still does not my particular selected font to be shown in faux small
caps:

\def\fakesmallcaps{\let\processword\dofakesmallcapped\processwords}
\def\dofakesmallcapped#1{\dostartfakesmallcapped#1\dostopfakesmallcapped}
\def\dostartfakesmallcapped#1#2\dostopfakesmallcapped{\cap{#1\cap{#2}}}

\font\fontlatin = "Gentium Basic" at 12 pt
\font\fontlatintwo = "DejaVu Sans Condensed" at 16 pt

\starttext
\fontlatin
\fakesmallcaps{Testing This}
\fontlatintwo
\fakesmallcaps{Testing This}
\stoptext

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[Rogers, Michael K]

On Jul 24, 2012, at 10:33 PM, Shriramana Sharma wrote:

> Hi -- is there absolutely no way for obtaining these "fake small caps"
> in ConTeXT?

Here's a hack, which sort of works, definitely doesn't handle <return> -- there must be a better way.  I hope you don't mind my using your text as text. :-)

\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[DejaVuSansCondensed]
\def\smallcaps{\begingroup\obeyspaces\let\myspace=\space\dosmallcaps}
\def\dosmallcaps#1{\dosc#1\end\endgroup}
\def\dosc#1{%
  \ifx#1\end \let\next=\relax
  \else\if#1\space \myspace\let\myspace=\relax% skip repeated spaces
    \else\ifnum\lccode`#1=`#1{\tfx \uppercase{#1}}% change \tfx to your desired size
      \else #1\fi
      \let\myspace=\space
    \fi
    \let\next=\dosc
  \fi\next}
\starttext
Not everyone is a
typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
system impose
\smallcaps{"super-duper" Typography}
on users when they are willing
to settle for less?
\smallcaps{Watch out  for
returns.}
\stoptext

Alternatively, you could settle for a font that has small caps.


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Re: Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Rogers, Michael K <mroge02@emory.edu> wrote:
>
> Here's a hack, which sort of works, definitely doesn't handle <return> -- there must be a better way.  I hope you don't mind my using your text as text. :-)

Hi thanks for your help. Sorry to keep returning with errors (but as I
said I'm a noob):

loading         : ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
! Undefined control sequence.
l.144 \ctxloadluafile
                     {t-simplefonts}{}

I checked and the package context-modules is installed on my system.

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[Marco]

On 2012-07-25 Shriramana Sharma <samjnaa@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Shriramana,

> Hi thanks for your help. Sorry to keep returning with errors (but as I
> said I'm a noob):
> 
> loading         : ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
> ! Undefined control sequence.
> l.144 \ctxloadluafile
>                      {t-simplefonts}{}

simplefonts is a MkIV module, you are using MkII. If you don't have
a particular reason to use MkII with XeTeX I would recommend to
switch to MkIV and LuaTeX. The difference is basically compiling
with “context file.tex” instead of “texexec --xetex file.tex”. And
it is also recommended to use an up-to-date context installation
(since apparently your version is  quite old). You'll find more info
about installing an up-to-date MkIV on the wiki:

http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Standalone


Marco


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Re: Small caps?

[Hans Hagen]

On 25-7-2012 04:33, Shriramana Sharma wrote:

> Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
> not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants" (from MS Word)
> to be provided by TeX macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
> bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
> typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
> their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
> system impose "super-duper" typography on users when they are willing
> to settle for less?

Sure, but one problem with a mkii fake approach is that it is fragile 
when something else than 8 bit characters shows up in the content 
stream. In mkiv that's less an issues as there completely different 
solutions are used.

Hans

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Re: Small caps?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 25-7-2012 04:33, Shriramana Sharma wrote:
>
>> Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
>> not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants" (from MS Word)
>> to be provided by TeX macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
>> bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
>> typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
>> their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
>> system impose "super-duper" typography on users when they are willing
>> to settle for less?
>
> Sure, but one problem with a mkii fake approach is that it is fragile when
> something else than 8 bit characters shows up in the content stream.

Is that also true for XeTeX? (What is an 8-bit character when talking of XeTeX?)

As far as I remember converting uppercase into lowercase or vice versa
should work out of the box in XeTeX (all the lccodes and uccodes are
properly set already).

[But I have no idea how that black magic with \Words & \Caps and their
zillions of variants works.]

> In mkiv
> that's less an issues as there completely different solutions are used.

But it lacks Indic scripts, so it's not an option for him, at least not yet.

Mojca
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Re: Small caps?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Marco wrote:
> On 2012-07-25 Shriramana Sharma wrote:
>
> Hi Shriramana,
>
>> Hi thanks for your help. Sorry to keep returning with errors (but as I
>> said I'm a noob):
>>
>> loading         : ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
>> ! Undefined control sequence.
>> l.144 \ctxloadluafile
>>                      {t-simplefonts}{}
>
> simplefonts is a MkIV module, you are using MkII. If you don't have
> a particular reason to use MkII with XeTeX

He does. He just explained that he wants to use Indic scripts and
unless someone writes support for them ...

However this means that t-simplefonts are not an option either. Btw:
shouldn't the module check that it's running MKIV and complain if it
doesn't (with a clear error message as opposed to "undefined
command")?

Mojca
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Re: Small caps?

[Hans Hagen]

On 25-7-2012 09:41, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 25-7-2012 04:33, Shriramana Sharma wrote:
>>
>>> Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
>>> not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants" (from MS Word)
>>> to be provided by TeX macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
>>> bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
>>> typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
>>> their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
>>> system impose "super-duper" typography on users when they are willing
>>> to settle for less?
>>
>> Sure, but one problem with a mkii fake approach is that it is fragile when
>> something else than 8 bit characters shows up in the content stream.
>
> Is that also true for XeTeX? (What is an 8-bit character when talking of XeTeX?)

On the one hand less, as a token can be an utf character, but fo rother 
bits and pieces of the input it is still tricky. Given the earlier 
posted code:

     \smallcaps{àáâãäå Watch out for returns.}

That works, but the next doesn't:

     \smallcaps{àáâãäå Watch out for \TEX\ returns.}

So, a parser would have to deal with things like this:

\TEX
{\bold test}
\hbox{test}

There are some token processors in mkii that deal with some of these 
aspects.

> But it lacks Indic scripts, so it's not an option for him, at least not yet.

Indic scripts will be supported in mkiv some day soon (at the ntg 
meeting there has been a presentation about devanagari etc using the 
context font machinery and that will be integrated once it's stable).

Hans

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Re: Small caps?

[Shriramana Sharma]

Hi thanks everyone for their responses.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> But it lacks Indic scripts, so it's not an option for him, at least not
>> yet.
>
> Indic scripts will be supported in mkiv some day soon (at the ntg meeting
> there has been a presentation about devanagari etc using the context font
> machinery and that will be integrated once it's stable).

Hi -- I'm curious to know about your future plans for Indic. Are you
going to use HarfBuzz? Even in Indic, I have specific minority
orthography requirements due to which I'm using Graphite-enabled
fonts. HarfBuzz (new one, not old one) supports Graphite and so my
requirements would be met if that is used, but if you are going to
develop yet another rendering system (please don't tell me it's so) it
would be quite difficult...

-- 
Shriramana Sharma
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Re: Small caps?

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Shriramana Sharma <samjnaa@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi thanks everyone for their responses.
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> >> But it lacks Indic scripts, so it's not an option for him, at least not
> >> yet.
> >
> > Indic scripts will be supported in mkiv some day soon (at the ntg meeting
> > there has been a presentation about devanagari etc using the context font
> > machinery and that will be integrated once it's stable).
>
> Hi -- I'm curious to know about your future plans for Indic. Are you
> going to use HarfBuzz? Even in Indic, I have specific minority
> orthography requirements due to which I'm using Graphite-enabled
> fonts. HarfBuzz (new one, not old one) supports Graphite and so my
> requirements would be met if that is used, but if you are going to
> develop yet another rendering system (please don't tell me it's so) it
> would be quite difficult...
>
> ok, we don't tell  it to you.
-- 
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Small caps?

[Hans Hagen]

On 25-7-2012 10:16, Shriramana Sharma wrote:
> Hi thanks everyone for their responses.
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>> But it lacks Indic scripts, so it's not an option for him, at least not
>>> yet.
>>
>> Indic scripts will be supported in mkiv some day soon (at the ntg meeting
>> there has been a presentation about devanagari etc using the context font
>> machinery and that will be integrated once it's stable).
>
> Hi -- I'm curious to know about your future plans for Indic. Are you
> going to use HarfBuzz? Even in Indic, I have specific minority
> orthography requirements due to which I'm using Graphite-enabled
> fonts. HarfBuzz (new one, not old one) supports Graphite and so my
> requirements would be met if that is used, but if you are going to
> develop yet another rendering system (please don't tell me it's so) it
> would be quite difficult...

luatex does not use specific libraries but assumes all to be done in lua 
.. the otf machinery in mkiv is lua based (independent, extensible) and 
support for indic runs on top of that (the additional code is written by 
some dutchies who need it for high end academic publishing) ... I don't 
know about specific monorities but demos of several variants were shown

Hans

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Re: Small caps?

[Rogers, Michael K]

On Jul 25, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Shriramana Sharma wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Rogers, Michael K <mroge02@emory.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Here's a hack, which sort of works, definitely doesn't handle <return> -- there must be a better way.  I hope you don't mind my using your text as text. :-)
>
> Hi thanks for your help. Sorry to keep returning with errors (but as I
> said I'm a noob):
>
> loading         : ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
> ! Undefined control sequence.
> l.144 \ctxloadluafile
>                     {t-simplefonts}{}
>
> I checked and the package context-modules is installed on my system.

Sorry about that.  You should load your font in your usual way.  As has been pointed out, this is not a robust solution.

% load your favorite font here
\def\smallcaps{\begingroup\let\par=\space\obeylines\obeyspaces\let\myspace=\space\dosmallcaps}
\def\dosmallcaps#1{\dosc#1\end\endgroup}
\def\dosc#1{% assumes #1 is a sequence of characters
 \ifx#1\end \let\next=\relax
 \else\if#1\space \myspace\let\myspace=\relax% skip repeated spaces
   \else\ifnum\lccode`#1=`#1{\tfx \uppercase{#1}}% change \tfx to your desired size
     \else #1\fi
     \let\myspace=\space
   \fi
   \let\next=\dosc
 \fi\next}
\starttext
Basically I'm trying to move away from wordprocessors, and while I'm
not looking for meaningless effects like "walking ants"
\smallcaps{(from MS Word)}
to be provided by \TeX\ macro packages, faux smallcaps (and oblique and
bold) is not an unreasonable thing to expect IMO. Not everyone is a
typographer to produce the appropriate fine-typography glyphs for
their favourite font to cater to a particular style. Why should the
system impose
\smallcaps{"super-duper" Typography}
on users when they are willing
to settle for less?
\smallcaps{Look,
returns now work}
%\smallcaps{but \TeX\ and other control sequences do not.}
\stoptext


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___________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Small caps?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 25.07.2012 um 09:43 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Marco wrote:
>> On 2012-07-25 Shriramana Sharma wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Shriramana,
>> 
>>> Hi thanks for your help. Sorry to keep returning with errors (but as I
>>> said I'm a noob):
>>> 
>>> loading         : ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
>>> ! Undefined control sequence.
>>> l.144 \ctxloadluafile
>>>                     {t-simplefonts}{}
>> 
>> simplefonts is a MkIV module, you are using MkII. If you don't have
>> a particular reason to use MkII with XeTeX
> 
> He does. He just explained that he wants to use Indic scripts and
> unless someone writes support for them ...
> 
> However this means that t-simplefonts are not an option either. Btw:
> shouldn't the module check that it's running MKIV and complain if it
> doesn't (with a clear error message as opposed to "undefined
> command")?

This doesn’t happen anymore with the new version where I include
a XeTeX version of the module which I has lying on my system.

Wolfgang
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