From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/86249 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Keith J. Schultz" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:56 +0100 Message-ID: <78B47077-A71C-4C31-8F9B-F4CC1295BF77@uni-trier.de> References: <52F7D270.8040006@gyza.cz> <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0177841429==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392114839 7652 80.91.229.3 (11 Feb 2014 10:33:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:33:59 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Tue Feb 11 11:34:08 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WDAfH-00031j-Nd for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:34:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D4D101EB; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:34:04 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Rh2NnDhBM3E4; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:34:02 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49966101E3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:34:02 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1B6101E3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:34:00 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 5MKD7GosixWj for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:58 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter2-ams.mf.surf.net (filter2-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.70]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA910101E1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:58 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mx1.uni-trier.de (mx1.uni-trier.de [136.199.224.17]) by filter2-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s1BAXvie007516 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:58 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,825,1384297200"; d="scan'208,217";a="10145871" Original-Received: from rzmail.uni-trier.de ([136.199.8.220]) by mx1i.uni-trier.de with ESMTP; 11 Feb 2014 11:33:57 +0100 Original-Received: from [10.0.62.7] (dslb-084-058-235-086.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.235.86]) by rzmail.uni-trier.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3E2F33FE92 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:57 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=136.199.224.17; country=DE; region=08; city=Trier; latitude=49.7500; longitude=6.6333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=49.7500,6.6333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0QLoWxVNP - 0bb6b2a54c75 - 20140211 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.70 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:86249 Archived-At: --===============0177841429== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF3EC334-EA0D-480E-B79B-D1C42230B243" --Apple-Mail=_EF3EC334-EA0D-480E-B79B-D1C42230B243 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: > On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. = It > worked just fine. >=20 > At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but > research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt > and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt). >=20 > It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling > that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned = to > output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] > l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with > source l.tex and c.tex for some examples. >=20 > In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and = probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need = tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from = hackery solutions (for several reasons). >=20 > I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for = sure is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I = gave in the previous email in mind: >=20 > * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second = derivative (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime = (the prime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)? No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is = always larger than multiple ones! You can always change its size! > * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX = example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)? have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} depending on = the actual result you want. =20 > * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed = (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books). Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX > * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in = integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)? > * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous = thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? = Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling = that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the = kind of things that should just work as expected... >=20 > Best regards, Mikael regards Keith= --Apple-Mail=_EF3EC334-EA0D-480E-B79B-D1C42230B243 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael = P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. = It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept = ConTeXt
and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned = to
output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files = [1]
l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and = probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need = tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from = hackery solutions (for several reasons).

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as = long as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some = things. With the examples I gave in the previous email in = mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative = (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in = the first derivative is the one I = prefer)?
No sure = if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always larger = than multiple ones!
You can always change its = size!

* How am I = supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX example (i.e. = so that the primes are over the = xx)?
have to = switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual = result you want.
 
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be = changed (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math = books).
Not sure = what you want here! example? can be LateX
* What about the size and finetuning of = placement of indices in integrals and sums (and probably products, = unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a = previous thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double = bars for \|? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I = have a feeling that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then = this is the kind of things that should just work as expected...

Best regards, = Mikael

regards
= Keith
= --Apple-Mail=_EF3EC334-EA0D-480E-B79B-D1C42230B243-- --===============0177841429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0177841429==--