body text invades space for notes

body text invades space for notes

[Pablo Rodriguez]

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Dear list,

I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
general issue.

Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these
notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I
mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
read or paged through.)

There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by
default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
used in "\setupnote".

This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.

With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png).
In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
contains footnotes.

I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.

Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"),
there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).

My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the
space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they
come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.

My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
considered as a basic typographic feature.

Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
needs to be improved.

Many thanks for your help in advance,

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Philipp A.]

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For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely
overlaps my footnote.

Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work? How
to debug it?

Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez <oinos@gmx.es>:

> Dear list,
>
> I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
> me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
> general issue.
>
> Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these
> notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I
> mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
> the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
> read or paged through.)
>
> There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by
> default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
> used in "\setupnote".
>
> This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
> used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
> editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
> left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>
> With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
> than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png).
> In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
> contains footnotes.
>
> I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
> reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>
> Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
> that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"),
> there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
> remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>
> My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the
> space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they
> come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>
> My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
> considered as a basic typographic feature.
>
> Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
> not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
> don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
> needs to be improved.
>
> Many thanks for your help in advance,
>
> Pablo
> --
> http://www.ousia.tk
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
> For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely
> overlaps my footnote.
>
> Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work?
> How to debug it?

Hi Philipp,

I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
same page.

Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
using \setupnote[footnote].

Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
notes texts when using lists in the same page.

BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.

    \showframe\showgrid
    \setuppapersize[A9]
    \starttext
    \dorecurse{3}{%
        text\footnote{note}\\}
    \stoptext

Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.

Pablo


> Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
>
>     Dear list,
>
>     I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
>     me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
>     general issue.
>
>     Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these
>     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I
>     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
>     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
>     read or paged through.)
>
>     There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by
>     default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
>     used in "\setupnote".
>
>     This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
>     used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
>     editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
>     left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>
>     With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
>     than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png).
>     In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
>     contains footnotes.
>
>     I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
>     reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>
>     Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
>     that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"),
>     there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
>     remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>
>     My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the
>     space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they
>     come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>
>     My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
>     considered as a basic typographic feature.
>
>     Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
>     not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
>     don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
>     needs to be improved.
>
>     Many thanks for your help in advance,
>
>     Pablo



--
http://www.ousia.tk
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Philipp A.]

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Hi Pablo,

Thank you for the help!
I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with
location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty close to
the footnote.
Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only
feature that’s just consistently broken for me …

Best, Phil

Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 22:15 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez <oinos@gmx.es>:

> On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
> > For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely
> > overlaps my footnote.
> >
> > Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work?
> > How to debug it?
>
> Hi Philipp,
>
> I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
> same page.
>
> Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
> using \setupnote[footnote].
>
> Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
> side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
> notes texts when using lists in the same page.
>
> BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
>
>     \showframe\showgrid
>     \setuppapersize[A9]
>     \starttext
>     \dorecurse{3}{%
>         text\footnote{note}\\}
>     \stoptext
>
> Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
>
> Pablo
>
>
> > Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
> >
> >     Dear list,
> >
> >     I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
> >     me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
> >     general issue.
> >
> >     Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that
> these
> >     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next
> page. I
> >     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
> >     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
> >     read or paged through.)
> >
> >     There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this
> by
> >     default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
> >     used in "\setupnote".
> >
> >     This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
> >     used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
> >     editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
> >     left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
> >
> >     With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
> >     than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample
> (wrong-6.png).
> >     In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
> >     contains footnotes.
> >
> >     I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
> >     reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
> >
> >     Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
> >     that case by removing the "before" option from
> "\setupnote[footnote]"),
> >     there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
> >     remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
> >
> >     My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve
> the
> >     space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where
> they
> >     come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
> >
> >     My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
> >     considered as a basic typographic feature.
> >
> >     Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
> >     not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
> >     don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
> >     needs to be improved.
> >
> >     Many thanks for your help in advance,
> >
> >     Pablo
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.ousia.tk
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Jean-Pierre Delange]

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Dear Pablo,

It seems that we never should say "never" about things which appear all 
over the real world. I just go back to a previous assertion you made here.

I agree with you about footnotes which should be placed on the same page 
(I quote) :

 >    Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that 
these
 >     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next 
page. I
 >     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
 >     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
 >     read or paged through.)

But, I am afraid to inform you that it is a kind of way of French 
printing, especially in Philosophy publishers (which are not known to be 
devoted to publish beautiful/strictly edited/... books).

As a kind of sample, see the French translation of Nichomachean Ethics 
by Jean Tricot (1983 edition), Jean Vrin publisher, pages 201, 225-226, 
245-246, etc.  One can notice an effort to reduce the body text in order 
to let some space to footnotes. But this effort flaws on several pages ...

A way had have been chosen by publishers : "don't abuse about footnotes 
!", which is clearly impossible within academic books in Humanities ...

JP


Le 04/03/2020 à 12:07, Philipp A. a écrit :
> Hi Pablo,
>
> Thank you for the help!
> I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with 
> location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty 
> close to the footnote.
> Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only 
> feature that’s just consistently broken for me …
>
> Best, Phil
>
> Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 22:15 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez 
> <oinos@gmx.es <mailto:oinos@gmx.es>>:
>
>     On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
>     > For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text
>     completely
>     > overlaps my footnote.
>     >
>     > Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it
>     work?
>     > How to debug it?
>
>     Hi Philipp,
>
>     I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
>     same page.
>
>     Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
>     using \setupnote[footnote].
>
>     Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
>     side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
>     notes texts when using lists in the same page.
>
>     BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
>
>         \showframe\showgrid
>         \setuppapersize[A9]
>         \starttext
>         \dorecurse{3}{%
>             text\footnote{note}\\}
>         \stoptext
>
>     Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
>
>     Pablo
>
>
>     > Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
>     >
>     >     Dear list,
>     >
>     >     I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily
>     problematic for
>     >     me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can
>     discuss the
>     >     general issue.
>     >
>     >     Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user
>     expects that these
>     >     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the
>     next page. I
>     >     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next
>     page from
>     >     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in
>     any book
>     >     read or paged through.)
>     >
>     >     There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t
>     enable this by
>     >     default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text"
>     have to be
>     >     used in "\setupnote".
>     >
>     >     This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph
>     form was
>     >     used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for
>     critical
>     >     editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m
>     afraid that
>     >     left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>     >
>     >     With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more
>     problematic
>     >     than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample
>     (wrong-6.png).
>     >     In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the
>     page bottom
>     >     contains footnotes.
>     >
>     >     I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were
>     so easy to
>     >     reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>     >
>     >     Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which
>     I did in
>     >     that case by removing the "before" option from
>     "\setupnote[footnote]"),
>     >     there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space
>     before
>     >     remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>     >
>     >     My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to
>     preserve the
>     >     space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same
>     page where they
>     >     come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>     >
>     >     My second question is what can be improved to achieve what
>     may be
>     >     considered as a basic typographic feature.
>     >
>     >     Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with
>     me. I may
>     >     not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt
>     user. And I
>     >     don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic
>     feature that
>     >     needs to be improved.
>     >
>     >     Many thanks for your help in advance,
>     >
>     >     Pablo
>
>
>
>     --
>     http://www.ousia.tk
>     ___________________________________________________________________________________
>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>     entry to the Wiki!
>
>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>     archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>     ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 3/4/20 12:44 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange wrote:
> Dear Pablo,
>
> It seems that we never should say "never" about things which appear all
> over the real world. I just go back to a previous assertion you made here.

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I said “I have never seen that...” not “I will never see that...”.

> I agree with you about footnotes which should be placed on the same page
> (I quote) :
>
>>  Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these
>>  notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I
>>  mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
>>  the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
>>  read or paged through.)
> [...]
> As a kind of sample, see the French translation of Nichomachean Ethics
> by Jean Tricot (1983 edition), Jean Vrin publisher, pages 201, 225-226,
> 245-246, etc.  One can notice an effort to reduce the body text in order
> to let some space to footnotes. But this effort flaws on several pages...

This makes the perfect case for using endnotes.

> A way had have been chosen by publishers : "don't abuse about
> footnotes!", which is clearly impossible within academic books in
> Humanities...

Using endnotes would be a much easier approach.

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: body text invades space for notes

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 3/4/20 12:07 PM, Philipp A. wrote:
> Hi Pablo,
>
> Thank you for the help!
> I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with
> location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty close
> to the footnote.

Hi Philipp,

I thought lists were the main problem for footnotes to be invaded, but I
was wrong.

> Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only
> feature that’s just consistently broken for me …

I’m afraid that ConTeXt has changed the way that deals with footnotes. A
side effect is this accidental invasion from body text in foonote space.

Before it went worse, the problem was paragraph notes. I reported back
then, but I saw that this was a blocker for anything related to critical
editions in my case.

I think Hans is interested in solving this (or at least, in not having
broken features in ConTeXt), but it might be very hard to track.

I’m afraid I cannot provide a sample. I get text running in footnotes
spaeces with Markdown sources and a rather complex ConTeXt environment.

I wonder if it would be possible to fix the cause by providing a MWE.

Sorry for not being helpless at this issue,

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
___________________________________________________________________________________
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