Re: issue with beta from 2019.11.29 21:47 in Windows

[Pablo Rodriguez <oinos@gmx.es>]

On 12/7/19 4:32 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 12/7/2019 2:40 PM, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
>
>> I know, but he was one of my bosses. And I remember I was totally
>> shocked when he explained to me that the standard document format for
>> any word processor was OpenOffice.org.
>
> Anyone claiming that something is a standard (esp in computer science)
> is unaware of history. I bet that our ancestors of thousands of years
> ago also considered themselves modern, with standards etc. But sometimes
> I think that many folks today think of themselves as being on top of the
> human (intelligence, progress, morale, etc) pyramid compared to whoever
> came before. History proved them wrong. (Similar are claims of this or
> that being better (software, operating systems, etc) while in the end
> much converges to the same.)

The main problem with his explanation of the standard was that he mixed
both tools and formats. I’m not sure any tool is a standard, the file
formrat for some kind of data is relevant to be standarized.

> Anyway, it's a waste of time and energy discussing with those folks.
>
> And we as texies should also be honest: how many of the acclaimed
> 'happy' tex users are really 'happy' with their system and are those
> 'millions' really (unforced) users who couldn't as well be using word or
> google docs or ... given what and how they deal with documents. And
> let's not add the quality argument because a coupel of weeks ago I
> noticed how bad tex output didn't look any better in a display of some
> 80 summaries at some meeting (the, oh, look how bad that table looks
> experience).

I must admit I’m having my worst time since I started using TeX (decades
ago), because some documents I generate have simply unreadable parts and
they are simply and plainly wrong (even considering the lowest
standards). It makes me suspect that one of approaches to basic
functionality could be flawed.

But I don’t doubt ConTeXt is the most useful piece of software I use on
a daily basis (followed by git and pandoc [probably in that order]),
because it makes me achieve things I couldn’t do using other tools.

I’m extremely confortable using it (although I report all bugs I hit).
And I think it is worth the effort to investigate further to contribute
to the fix to the problem described above (even if it drives me crazy).

> (And, yes I consider myself a happy tex user, but I also admit that I
> don't have to write much. And yes, it's a specific kind of user and usage.)

Well, Hans, this specific kind of user and usage is called LuaTeX,
LuaMetaTeX and ConTeXt development.

>> I cannot recall the accurate details from his explanation, but he seemed
>> to think that even Microsoft Word was at fault for not implementing the
>> Open Document Text format (.odt) as its native format.
>
> I suppose he read the specs of both formats in detail (in print of course).

His reasoning was flawed from the start. You cannot complain an egg is
not an elephant.

Well, Microsoft Word format may be propietary (it is actually a
standard), but there is nothing wrong in being different from another
text document format.

XML may have its flaws, but it is perfectly fine that it isn’t
PostScript. (Otherwise, what the reasoning demands is the removal of XML
as format.)

>> The reasoning was so bizarre and shocking to me that I understood that
>> it was better to me simply to decline the discussion. Also other factual
>> inaccuracies about the work done in other departments made me clear that
>> it was better to avoid the conversation.
>
> Indeed. Waste of time. Just think of this: you could kind of check his
> claims, so how about all the other claims someone makes ... stuff you
> know little about ... how valid are those claims then.

I perfectly recall one factual statement he did about one detail from
another department. I told him that I worked two years ago there and I
thought that was different. After leaving his office, I went to the
department and checked the detail. He was wrong and I thought that I
should avoid him (just in case he wanted to discuss general questions).

>> The installation was so poorly performed that they forgot to assign
>> Microsoft Office extensions to OOo programs in Windows. AOnly this minor
>> incident was a huge problem for the vast majority of users.
>
> And then they entered denial state.

They didn’t even need that. They didn’t experienced the problems, since
the users didn’t complain to them (installation was remote).

>> It was clear to me what I knew decades ago: free software isn’t programs
>> for free. I think they still have to deal with issues in OOo.
>
> Although, not all free software comes for free. I'm not that sure of
> online tex services are cheaper than bulk microsoft licenses.

I know and the problem with that migration was they wanted to avoid
spending in the license fees.

>> I only talked no more than five times with that guy. But if he was the
>> evangelist of free software in that company, I’m afraid I totally agree
>> with the people working there that hated OOo.
>
> It's all about honnesty isn't it? And about people spending time and
> energy, That doesn't always goes well with commercial objectives. And
> there's always the knowledge issue. And expecially when open source and
> such starts looking like a religion (one without a long history of
> dealing with itself and communicating properly) it gets even trickier.

I don’t have any problem with OOo myself, but I understand that people
thought that OOo was a cheap and bad alternative to Microsoft Office.

The problem with the way they used OOo is that you shouldn’t expect that
bugs disappear by magic. At least, start learning how to report the bugs
(to report them next).

As ideology, I think free software is most problematic. I agree that
free software may be a good contribution to society, but it is no moral
problem at all. (Probably we should start questioning why we apply
copyright law to trade secrets.)

Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
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