Problem with German quotes and kerning

Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi all,

this seems to be a general TeX-problem, not ConTeXt specific, but I'm  
not sure I understand the details. Here's the problem: when I use  
mainlanguage[de], I can type "` to get German opening quotes,  
\quotedblbase „. However, this characters needs some (a lot of)  
kerning when it comes before, e.g., W or V; it is too far away from  
the following character. Most font-designers don't care about German  
typography, so I tried and added the kerning manually. But this works  
only if I input the character directly via the keyboard or via the  
symbolic name, it does not work with "` (nor with \quotation{ });  
language German seems to make the ` active. In emacs, I find "` the  
most convenient way to input German quotes. Is there a way to have  
kerning with this input, or do I have to change my habits?

Best

Thomas

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2006-01-23 um 13:18 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz:

> Is there a way to have kerning with this input, or do I have to  
> change my habits?

Sorry, I can't help you with kerning at the moment, but you should  
change your habits and never type quote signs, but use \quote{} and  
\quotation{}.


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://contextgarden.net
http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

> Sorry, I can't help you with kerning at the moment, but you should  
> change your habits and never type quote signs, but use \quote{} and  
> \quotation{}.
>

What is the advantage? (And unfortunately, it doesn't help with my  
problem...)

Thomas

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Mojca Miklavec]

On 1/23/06, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> this seems to be a general TeX-problem, not ConTeXt specific, but I'm
> not sure I understand the details. Here's the problem: when I use
> mainlanguage[de], I can type "` to get German opening quotes,
> \quotedblbase „. However, this characters needs some (a lot of)
> kerning when it comes before, e.g., W or V; it is too far away from
> the following character. Most font-designers don't care about German
> typography, so I tried and added the kerning manually. But this works
> only if I input the character directly via the keyboard or via the
> symbolic name, it does not work with "` (nor with \quotation{ });
> language German seems to make the ` active. In emacs, I find "` the
> most convenient way to input German quotes. Is there a way to have
> kerning with this input, or do I have to change my habits?

On the transferred page:
     http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern
there are already kerning issues listed.

If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if
the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page.

I agree that kerning "German" style of quotation marks was (and
perhaps still is?) horrible, perhaps slightly better in LM than it was
in CM. We use them as well (to be honest - 95% of LaTeX-people uses
the wrong ones).

I use \quotation because of these reasons:
- I never know which is the proper command to get the desired
quotation marks with combination of ", `, ', ...
- I trust Hans that the macro is optimized in such a way that the
hyphenation and everything else on the word boundary will be OK
(although I'm not sure what happens to kerning)
- I can simply redefine the quotation marks or the style of text to be
used, for example it's easy to replace them by guillemet/guillemot
alternative if necessary

It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say
that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a}
vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner.

Mojca

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2006-01-25 um 13:45 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

> It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say
> that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a}
> vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner.

No, it's more like a decision between \em and \it - \em and \quotation 
{} are logical markup, \it and "' are optical.
And I hope we agree that markup should be logical, whether HTML or  
TeX...

Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://contextgarden.net
http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Mojca,

thanks a lot for you reply!

On Jan 25, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> On the transferred page:
>      http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern
> there are already kerning issues listed.
>
> If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if
> the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page.

Well, the problem is that this is not really relevant to my question.  
Of course it would be good to have proper kerning for German quotes  
implemented in the fonts, Latin Modern or any other font. But the way  
this is now handled in lang-ger.tex, this kerning is not applied in  
ConTeXt! So even if LM were perfect in this regard, we still wouldn't  
have properly kerned German quotes (am I making sense here, or is  
this not clear enough?).

>
> I agree that kerning "German" style of quotation marks was (and
> perhaps still is?) horrible, perhaps slightly better in LM than it was
> in CM. We use them as well (to be honest - 95% of LaTeX-people uses
> the wrong ones).
>
> I use \quotation because of these reasons:
> - I never know which is the proper command to get the desired
> quotation marks with combination of ", `, ', ...
> - I trust Hans that the macro is optimized in such a way that the
> hyphenation and everything else on the word boundary will be OK
> (although I'm not sure what happens to kerning)
> - I can simply redefine the quotation marks or the style of text to be
> used, for example it's easy to replace them by guillemet/guillemot
> alternative if necessary
>
> It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say
> that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a}
> vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner.

OK, this makes sense, especially your third point. If you use ConTeXt  
exclusively, quotation{} and \quote{} may have advantages, but you  
can't copy/paste text into, say, a file to be processed with LaTeX.  
And I use emacs + auctex, so I don't have to remember what I need to  
type, it is done automatically. OTOH, I could also configure auctex  
to write \quotation{ when I type ". It this meant that I would get  
proper kerning, I'd go for it...

Thanks, and best

Thomas

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Mojca Miklavec]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> > On the transferred page:
> >      http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern
> > there are already kerning issues listed.
> >
> > If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if
> > the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page.
>
> Well, the problem is that this is not really relevant to my question.
> Of course it would be good to have proper kerning for German quotes
> implemented in the fonts, Latin Modern or any other font. But the way
> this is now handled in lang-ger.tex, this kerning is not applied in
> ConTeXt! So even if LM were perfect in this regard, we still wouldn't
> have properly kerned German quotes (am I making sense here, or is
> this not clear enough?).

Sorry. I understood the problem (I also asked a couple of times on the
list already about it), but I probably really misunderstood the point
of your question.

How is the \quotedblbase V? (I just tried it for the first time.)

Mojca

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Taco Hoekwater]

Well, if there was correct kerning in the font, then ConTeXt
could at least attempt to do the right thing. As is, all efforts
in this area are wasted because not even the font itself is
right. Until that is fixed, there is no gain to be had from
fixing the current status quo (the font should also have
a kern between \quotesinglebase and itself, btw)

Cheers, Taco

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Taco,

I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this  
kerning issue for one of the (commercial) fonts I'm using often. If  
ConTeXt doesn't handle this kerning issue right, there is no  
incentive to correct the situation because nobody gains anything from  
improvements. So my 2 cents: First ConTeXt has to handle kerning in  
this situation, then we can go and improve the fonts. And of course  
you're right: \quotesinglebase cum suis has to have kerning as well.

Best

Thomas

On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Well, if there was correct kerning in the font, then ConTeXt
> could at least attempt to do the right thing. As is, all efforts
> in this area are wasted because not even the font itself is
> right. Until that is fixed, there is no gain to be had from
> fixing the current status quo (the font should also have
> a kern between \quotesinglebase and itself, btw)
>
> Cheers, Taco

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Taco Hoekwater]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Taco,
> 
> I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this  

Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition  below with a font that
has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue
as well, of course ). Should work, but I cannot test due to lack
of fonts ;-)

Cheers, Taco

\unprotect
\newif\ifsmartquotationfonts

\def\dohandlequotation#1#2%
   {\ifsmartquotationfonts
      #2%
      \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut
      \languageparameter#1%
    \else
      \ifdim\lastskip=\quotationsignal
        \unskip\hskip\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{interquotation}%
      \else
        #2%
      \fi
      \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut
      \symbol[#1]%
      \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\quotationsignal
    \fi }%
\protect

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Thanks Taco!!

On Jan 27, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition  below with a font that
> has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue
> as well, of course ).

In the source file? This doesn't seem to work :-(

I tried (with mainlanguage[de]):

„W ==> proper kerning

"`W ==> no kerning

\quotation{W} ==> no kerning

\quotedblbase W ==> proper kerning

Thanks

Thomas

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:

>Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>  
>
>>Taco,
>>
>>I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this  
>>    
>>
>
>Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition  below with a font that
>has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue
>as well, of course ). Should work, but I cannot test due to lack
>of fonts ;-)
>
>Cheers, Taco
>
>\unprotect
>\newif\ifsmartquotationfonts
>
>\def\dohandlequotation#1#2%
>   {\ifsmartquotationfonts
>      #2%
>      \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut
>      \languageparameter#1%
>    \else
>      \ifdim\lastskip=\quotationsignal
>        \unskip\hskip\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{interquotation}%
>      \else
>        #2%
>      \fi
>      \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut
>      \symbol[#1]%
>      \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\quotationsignal
>    \fi }%
>\protect
>  
>

the current quotation/quote/speech handler is now replaced by the 
delimited text one although that one is not yet activated; so any 
adaptions should take place there; i added an option:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

test \quotation{test} test

or:

\definedelimitedtext[whatever][quotation]

\setupdelimitedtext[whatever][method=font]

xxx \whatever{xx} xxx

When using that option, it's all up to the font ...

I'll generate a new 'current'

Hans

Hans

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:

! Undefined control sequence.
\@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation
                             \c!leftquotation }
\next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `}
                                             W
l.45 "`W

Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?

Best

Thomas


On Jan 27, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> I'll generate a new 'current'
>
> Hans
>

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
>
> ! Undefined control sequence.
> \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation
>                              \c!leftquotation }
> \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `}
>                                              W
> l.45 "`W
>
> Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
>   
indeed, let's root out the active " 

i'll fix that 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
>
> ! Undefined control sequence.
> \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation
>                              \c!leftquotation }
> \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `}
>                                              W
> l.45 "`W
>
> Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
>   
does this work? (enco-fde)

  \installcompoundcharacter "` {\startdelimitedtext[\v!quotation]}
  \installcompoundcharacter "' {\stopdelimitedtext}

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

alas no, still getting the same error.

Thomas
On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:16 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
>>
>> ! Undefined control sequence.
>> \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation
>>                              \c!leftquotation }
>> \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `}
>>                                              W
>> l.45 "`W
>>
>> Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
>>
> does this work? (enco-fde)
>
>   \installcompoundcharacter "` {\startdelimitedtext[\v!quotation]}
>   \installcompoundcharacter "' {\stopdelimitedtext}
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> alas no, still getting the same error.
>   
then ... wait for the update 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with  
the latest 'n greatest, I get:

\quotation{W} ==> no kerning

"`W ==> output is just the quotedblbase, the W is gobbled, and in the  
log, I see:

(\end occurred inside a group at level 1)

### simple group (level 1) entered at line 45 ({)
### bottom level

line 45 being where the "` occurs.

Sorry for all the confusion I caused

Thomas

On Jan 27, 2006, at 8:48 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> then ... wait for the update
>
> Hans
>

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with  
> the latest 'n greatest, I get:
>
> \quotation{W} ==> no kerning
>
> "`W ==> output is just the quotedblbase, the W is gobbled, and in the  
> log, I see:
>
> (\end occurred inside a group at level 1)
>
> ### simple group (level 1) entered at line 45 ({)
> ### bottom level
>
> line 45 being where the "` occurs.
>   
well, your self-punishment has been increased with another ten wiki pages

i'll fix it, for the moment say:

\def\nohandledelimitedtext
  {\delimitedtextparameter}

btw, we need another mapping of "' anyway, so i'll make an update 

Hans 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> 
>>Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with  
>>the latest 'n greatest, I get:
>>
>>\quotation{W} ==> no kerning


For this to work, \dofontdrivendelimited has to be defined like so:

   \unprotect
   \def\dofontdrivendelimited#1%
     {\languageparameter{\c!left\currentdelimitedtext}%
     #1%
     \languageparameter{\c!right\currentdelimitedtext}}
   \protect

Both "\groupedcommand" and "\symbol" intersect stuff that breaks
kerning, so should be avoided.


Cheers, Taco

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Jan 30, 2006, at 12:13 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> well, your self-punishment has been increased with another ten wiki  
> pages
>
:-) Yes, I'll make amends...

Thomas

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

can you test

  \installcompoundcharacter "` {\delimitedtext[\v!quotation]}
  \installcompoundcharacter "' {}

btw, currewntly the method=font is mistakenly the default; in the update 
you need to expliclty say

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Problem with German quotes and kerning

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Jan 30, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> can you test
>
>   \installcompoundcharacter "` {\delimitedtext[\v!quotation]}
>   \installcompoundcharacter "' {}
>

AFAICS, this doesn't change anything, the first character after the  
"` is still gobbled, and I get the same warning in the log file.

Thomas