lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

[Sanjoy Mahajan]

Dear math typesetting aficianados,

In the following example,

\starttext
$x^3\ x\mathstrut^3$
\stoptext

the superscript without the strut is about 2pt lower than with the
strut, using MkIV.  With MkII or plain TeX, they are the same height
(at the higher position obtained by using the \mathstrut in MkIV).

My eye tells me that the higher position looks more right.  Do others
agree?  Or, if it's a matter of taste, is the difference configurable
so that one can get the MkII behavior even without the \mathstrut?

-- 
-Sanjoy
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Re: lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Sanjoy,

I agree with you to say that the position of subscripts and superscripts in mkiv is not perfect: the same remark applies to the position of the derivative sign « prime » as $u’(t)$.

Actually in mkii (and also in plain TeX) the positions of the superscripts in your example are the same, but this is not the case with subscripts:
	$x_{3}\ x\mathstrut_{3}$
that is in mkii the latter $x\mathstrut_{3}$ gives a lower subscript, while in plain TeX both subscripts are positioned at an identical depth.

I would say the position of subscripts and superscripts in mkiv should be identical with one gets with the latest beta (version 2014.03.20 16:59) in the following example
	\starttext
	$x\mathstrut_{3}$ and $x\mathstrut^{3}$
	\stoptext

However as Hans pointed out, regarding maths typesetting in mkiv there are also some font related issues.

Best regards: OK
	

On 21 mars 2014, at 17:34, Sanjoy Mahajan <sanjoy@mit.edu> wrote:

> Dear math typesetting aficianados,
> 
> In the following example,
> 
> \starttext
> $x^3\ x\mathstrut^3$
> \stoptext
> 
> the superscript without the strut is about 2pt lower than with the
> strut, using MkIV.  With MkII or plain TeX, they are the same height
> (at the higher position obtained by using the \mathstrut in MkIV).
> 
> My eye tells me that the higher position looks more right.  Do others
> agree?  Or, if it's a matter of taste, is the difference configurable
> so that one can get the MkII behavior even without the \mathstrut?
> 
> -- 
> -Sanjoy
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/22/2014 8:17 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Sanjoy,
>
> I agree with you to say that the position of subscripts and superscripts in mkiv is not perfect: the same remark applies to the position of the derivative sign « prime » as $u’(t)$.
>
> Actually in mkii (and also in plain TeX) the positions of the superscripts in your example are the same, but this is not the case with subscripts:
> 	$x_{3}\ x\mathstrut_{3}$
> that is in mkii the latter $x\mathstrut_{3}$ gives a lower subscript, while in plain TeX both subscripts are positioned at an identical depth.
>
> I would say the position of subscripts and superscripts in mkiv should be identical with one gets with the latest beta (version 2014.03.20 16:59) in the following example
> 	\starttext
> 	$x\mathstrut_{3}$ and $x\mathstrut^{3}$
> 	\stoptext
>
> However as Hans pointed out, regarding maths typesetting in mkiv there are also some font related issues.

we have a more modern implementation in the next beta

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Re: lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

[Sanjoy Mahajan]

>> However as Hans pointed out, regarding maths typesetting in mkiv
>> there are also some font related issues.
> we have a more modern implementation in the next beta

I realized that this would also fix my issue with the superscripted
degree symbol coming out too low (which I had mysteriously thought was
only for that symbol).  

I will happily test the new beta on a myriad of superscripts that haunt
my .tex files.

-Sanjoy
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Re: lower superscripts in MkIV -- too low?

[Sanjoy Mahajan]

> we have a more modern implementation in the next beta

I tested the following with various flavors:

$
 x\mathstrut_{3} x_{3} 
 x^3 x\mathstrut^3 
 x^\circ x\mathstrut^\circ 
 20\mathstrut^\circ 20^\circ
$

Flavors that I tried: 

2014.03.27 MkIV
2014.02.14 MkIV
2013.06.07 MkII (from latest beta)
pdfTeX 1.40.14 (from Debian TL 2013)

(wrapping in \(start|stop)text or ending with \bye, as appropriate).

My observations:

The MkII and pdftex subscripts look too high.  I know that's
sacreligious, since it is what Knuth must have intended, and I am
surprised that I didn't notice it before.

The 2014.02.14 MkIV subscript with the strut looks too low, although the
x^3 with the strut looks reasonable, or is maybe just slightly too high.
The x^\circ looks fine.  The x\mathstrut^\circ is too high.  But the
20\mathstrut^\circ looks right (and looks too low without the strut).

In 2014.03.27 MkIV, the subscript- and subscript heights are unchanged
by the strut.  The subscript heights look right.  The superscript
heights all look okay, except for the 20\mathstrut^\circ, which is too
low (same height as without the strut).  In earlier versions, one could
raise the \circ using a \mathstrut, but that no longer has an effect.

The other change, and maybe I am hallucinating this one, is that the
horizontal spacing between the x and the 3 is now slightly different
with and without the strut: It is tighter with the strut.  I think it
looks better without the strut, but am not sure.

So, overall I think it has improved.  I also wonder:

1. about the right horizontal spacing (how tight it should be)

2. how to raise the \circ in 20^\circ

-Sanjoy
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