[Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Tobias Burnus]

Wrong "From" email address.

-------- Original Message --------
Betreff: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt
Datum: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:08:33 +0100
Von: Tobias Burnus <burnus@net-b.de>
An: NTG-ConTeXt <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
CC: Tobias Burnus <tobias.burnus@physik.fu-berlin.de>

Hi,

I installed a bug tracking system (Bugzilla) for ConTeXt and PPCHTeX on
  http://bugzilla.physik.fu-berlin.de:8080/context/

This location may move in the future (for instance to Hans server), all
data is saved in a separate database (besides "our" bugzilla at
http://bugzilla.physik.fu-berlin.de:8080/bugzilla/) and daily backuped.
The server is presently a Debian Woody Athlon 800 MHz with (only) 128 MB
Ram.

Hans asked me to stress that he wants to spend more time on coding than
on managing bug reports: 
> now, we need to establish a strategy, like, only serious bugs are reported, 
> otherwise we end up in spending our lives doing admin work; also, with 
> regards to bugs in manuals, i favor 'collected bugs', not one entry per 
> type -)

Since port 80 is blocked at the FU firewall, the 8080 is presently
needed (this may change in the future, but 8080 will continue to work).

With bugzilla it is even possible to produce XML output thus I'm sure
that Hans comes up with a bugreports-to-PDF publishing-on-demand
solution one day ;-)
  http://bugzilla.physik.fu-berlin.de:8080/context/xml.cgi

Send me suggestion what should be changed
(such as available products, components, keywords (presently none), ...)

With warm regards,

Tobias

PS: If needed be I can also set up a FAQ system like FAQ-O-Matic.
-- 
This above all: To thine own self be true / And it must follow as
the night the day / Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Marko Schuetz]

Tobias,

From: Tobias Burnus <burnus@gmx.de>
Subject: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:50:45 +0100

[..]
> I installed a bug tracking system (Bugzilla) for ConTeXt and PPCHTeX on
>   http://bugzilla.physik.fu-berlin.de:8080/context/
> 
> This location may move in the future (for instance to Hans server), all
> data is saved in a separate database (besides "our" bugzilla at
> http://bugzilla.physik.fu-berlin.de:8080/bugzilla/) and daily backuped.
> The server is presently a Debian Woody Athlon 800 MHz with (only) 128 MB
> Ram.
> 
> Hans asked me to stress that he wants to spend more time on coding than
> on managing bug reports: 
> > now, we need to establish a strategy, like, only serious bugs are reported, 
> > otherwise we end up in spending our lives doing admin work; also, with 
> > regards to bugs in manuals, i favor 'collected bugs', not one entry per 
> > type -)

have you considered using Peter Miller's Aegis? Currently it seems
that many of the ConTeXt users would be capable of rephrasing their
bug report as a test for desired functionality. So this would open a
new way to contribute: by writing tests...

>From personal experience I can attest that Aegis is a great tool to
steer software development...

By default(!) 

- changes are accompanied by tests
- these tests need to fail on the current version and succeed on the
  changed version
- the changes are part of the source code of the project
- a change is only added to the baseline if it passes all its tests
- the result is that the baseline will always satisfy all its tests

Eine schöne Zeit

Marko Schütz

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Tobias Burnus]

Hi,

Marko Schuetz <MarkoSchuetz@web.de> wrote:
> have you considered using Peter Miller's Aegis? Currently it seems
> that many of the ConTeXt users would be capable of rephrasing their
> bug report as a test for desired functionality. So this would open a
> new way to contribute: by writing tests...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Aegis is more a CVS replacement
than a bug tracking system. (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)
While I think a move to a CVS like (or based) system would be great, I
think this independend of bugreports/feature request tracking.
Additionally in order to make it work, we would require that Hans switches
to such a system

> >From personal experience I can attest that Aegis is a great tool to
> steer software development...
A revision based system wouldn't be bad, that's true. The problem is that
Hans version needs to be available in this system and frequently be
updated. Otherwise it doesn't make that much a sense.

Does someone know where the strength of these RCS lay?
- CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
- Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/)
- arch (http://www.regexps.com/#arch)
- aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)

With warm regards,

Tobias

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Daniel Pittman]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Tobias Burnus wrote:
> Marko Schuetz <MarkoSchuetz@web.de> wrote:

[...]

>> >From personal experience I can attest that Aegis is a great tool to
>> steer software development...
> A revision based system wouldn't be bad, that's true. The problem is
> that Hans version needs to be available in this system and frequently
> be updated. Otherwise it doesn't make that much a sense.
> 
> Does someone know where the strength of these RCS lay?
> - CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)

This is widely used in public projects and, as such, it's easy to find
experts.

>From experience, it scales to very large projects poorly but, in this
context, that's hardly relevant. (no pun intended)

It's inability to cope with file moves is a real pain and it's per-file
version management makes it difficult to ensure the success or failure
of individual actions, especially as the system gets more disributed.

It's also insecure, requiring babysitting to ensure sanctity of access
at all and, unless SSH remote access used, it's almost impossible to
secure well.

> - Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/)

This is slated as a replacement for CVS. It's apparently self hosting
but appears to have gotten bogged down in the rush to incorporate XML,
WEBDAV, SOAP, .NET or whatever else the buzzword of the week is this
week.[1]

It's features as a revision control system are, with minor exceptions,
identical to CVS.

It's far less broadly used and employs vastly more complex technologies,
making it a much higher risk target than CVS, in terms of security.

> - arch (http://www.regexps.com/#arch)

This is very new and claims a lot. It's not well documented nor well
matured.

It seems to cope reasonably well with file renaming and atomic actions,
at least according to it's paperwork and it's author.

It's security is questionable, given that a number of exploitable errors
were found in the FTP client implementation built into it.

It requires a large number of non-standard libraries, totaling around
30,000 to 50,000 lines of C code, regardless of it's advertised 3,000
line count.

It's ability to support large scale development has been questioned by a
number of people who /do/ make competent source management systems[2].

My personal observations on the system and it's techniques supported
most of their claims though I have had next to no practical exposure to
the system.

> - aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)

Unless I am very much mistaken this is a development process tool that
works with your choice of revision control system and imposes additional
process on it.

Last I checked it talked about RCS, CVS and SCCS, but may support more.

This may be a solution to problems of greater scope than revision
control, which may actually be the problem you are trying to address
here, but it's not, in and of itself, a revision control system.

It also implies a lot more formal process than most open source
development efforts use which, if you are trying to make the development
of ConTeXt, would most likely impede your aim.

Of these, CVS is the only tool I would consider using for any sort of
distributed or open source development. It's not particularly secure but
it's better than the competition.

Of those you didn't, BitMover looks interesting but is not free in most
senses of the word.

PRCS also seems interesting but I have never gotten quite motivated
enough to do much about it. It's author has plans for a network protocol
but, as of my last check, this had not eventuated.

Subversion and arch are *NOT* mature enough that it would be fun to try
and use them for a real project, I would suggest.

...and I thought that the research at my last job would never come in
handy again. :)

        Daniel

Footnotes: 
[1]  I don't actually know that .NET or SOAP have been added yet but
     it's not a bad bet to make...

[2]  The chap who produced PRCS and X-Delta, who's name I cannot bring
     to mind[3], and Larry McVoy, of BitMover fame.

[3]  If you care enough I can dig it up. :)

-- 
Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good;
and when it is bad, it is better than nothing.
        -- Dick Brandon

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Marko Schuetz]

From: Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:07:05 +1100

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Tobias Burnus wrote:
> > Marko Schuetz <MarkoSchuetz@web.de> wrote:
> 

[..]
> > - aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)
> 
> Unless I am very much mistaken this is a development process tool that
> works with your choice of revision control system and imposes additional
> process on it.

I'd say it _supports_ additional process, since this is
configurable. You could e.g. set your project's default to not require
tests, give all the people on the project all the roles so that
everyone may develop, review and integrate even their own work etc. In
essence you can disable or customize the additional process that aegis
offers.

> Last I checked it talked about RCS, CVS and SCCS, but may support more.

RCS or fhist are enough. Aegis' history management is configurable:
you configure which command is used to obtain a particular version of
a file, or to add a new "top-most" revision etc.

> This may be a solution to problems of greater scope than revision
> control, which may actually be the problem you are trying to address
> here, but it's not, in and of itself, a revision control system.
> 
> It also implies a lot more formal process than most open source
> development efforts use which, if you are trying to make the development
> of ConTeXt, would most likely impede your aim.

Hmm? Did you leave out some word here? I do not get what exact aim you
mean, and how it would impede this aim.

Cheers,
Marko

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:07 AM 2/28/2002 +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote:

Thanks for the explanation!

> > - aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)
>
>Unless I am very much mistaken this is a development process tool that
>works with your choice of revision control system and imposes additional
>process on it.
>
>Last I checked it talked about RCS, CVS and SCCS, but may support more.
>
>This may be a solution to problems of greater scope than revision
>control, which may actually be the problem you are trying to address
>here, but it's not, in and of itself, a revision control system.

Does anyone know perforce (commercial)? TeX live is done with it.

Hans

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   fall-back web server: 
www.pragma-pod.nl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Berend de Boer]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:

> Does anyone know perforce (commercial)? TeX live is done with it.

I'm using it extensively. Its great, its easy, its fast.

-- 
Groetjes,

Berend. (-:

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Daniel Pittman]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Hans Hagen wrote:
> At 12:07 AM 2/28/2002 +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the explanation!

Is the case of aegis, take it with a bit of a grain of salt. A couple of
people have pointed out to me that I might be less aware of it's
features than I thought.

It's also the one I know the least about so your millage may vary.

>> > - aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)
>>
>>Unless I am very much mistaken this is a development process tool that
>>works with your choice of revision control system and imposes
>>additional process on it.
>>
>>Last I checked it talked about RCS, CVS and SCCS, but may support
>>more.
>>
>>This may be a solution to problems of greater scope than revision
>>control, which may actually be the problem you are trying to address
>>here, but it's not, in and of itself, a revision control system.
> 
> Does anyone know perforce (commercial)? TeX live is done with it.

I have heard good things about it but only very indirectly. It's
commercial nature made it hard to verify experimentally as we didn't
manage to secure a test license in the period I was looking.

        Daniel

-- 
A cathedral, a wave of a storm, a dancer's leap,
never turn out to be as high as we had hoped.
        -- Marcel Proust

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Hans Hagen]

At 11:28 PM 2/28/2002 +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote

>I have heard good things about it but only very indirectly. It's
>commercial nature made it hard to verify experimentally as we didn't
>manage to secure a test license in the period I was looking.

it is free for open source projects; also, we could probably use the tex 
live repository since that runs on perforce.

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   fall-back web server: 
www.pragma-pod.nl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]

[Marko Schuetz]

From: Tobias Burnus <tobias.burnus@physik.fu-berlin.de>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Bug tracking system for ConTeXt]
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:23:20 +0100 (CET)

> Hi,
> 
> Marko Schuetz <MarkoSchuetz@web.de> wrote:
> > have you considered using Peter Miller's Aegis? Currently it seems
> > that many of the ConTeXt users would be capable of rephrasing their
> > bug report as a test for desired functionality. So this would open a
> > new way to contribute: by writing tests...
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Aegis is more a CVS replacement
> than a bug tracking system. (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)

You are right: it is not a bug tracking system, it's quite different
from CVS though. While it does provide a repository, it provides
features on top of that:

- functionality is specified by the collection of tests in the project
- the baseline is sure to pass all the tests
- changes aren't merely textual modifications of files, they are
  collections of files together with tests that witness the change in
  functionality
- by default aegis uses three roles: developer, reviewer and
  integrator, requiring (again by default) that after a developer
  finishes development on a change another pair of eyes review the
  change and in particular verify that sensible tests are
  provided. Then the third role, the integrator, is the only role
  allowed to integrate the change into the basline.

The whole process and project setup is highly configurable.

> While I think a move to a CVS like (or based) system would be great, I
> think this independend of bugreports/feature request tracking.

I agree...

> Additionally in order to make it work, we would require that Hans switches
> to such a system
>
> > >From personal experience I can attest that Aegis is a great tool to
> > steer software development...
> A revision based system wouldn't be bad, that's true. The problem is that
> Hans version needs to be available in this system and frequently be
> updated. Otherwise it doesn't make that much a sense.
> 
> Does someone know where the strength of these RCS lay?
> - CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
> - Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/)
> - arch (http://www.regexps.com/#arch)
> - aegis (http://aegis.sourceforge.net/)

I used CVS extensively before I started using Aegis. I use Aegis for
software development and CVS remains in use for changes that aren't
changes in functionality. As far as I know these two are the more
mature of the lot. The others I only know from their project
announcements.

Best regards,

Marko