Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[Denis Maier]

Hi,
I have this file:

--------------------------------------------------------------
\newdimen\cslhangindent
\cslhangindent=1.5em
\definestartstop [cslreferences] [
         before={%
         \setupnarrower[left=\cslhangindent]
         \startnarrower[left]%
         \setupindenting[-\leftskip,yes,first]%
         \indentation%
       },
       after=\stopnarrower,
     ]

\starttext

\section{Some title}

\input ward

\section{References}

\startcslreferences

\dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{10}{This is a Test. }\par}

\stopcslreferences

\stoptext
--------------------------------------------------------------

The skip after the `\section{References}` is bigger than after 
`\section{Some title}`. Why is that? If I delete the empty line after 
`\startcslreferences`, the skips are identical.

Is there a way to take care of this through `\definestartstop`?

Best,
Denis
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Re: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/27/2019 2:17 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> Hi,
> I have this file:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> \newdimen\cslhangindent
> \cslhangindent=1.5em
> \definestartstop [cslreferences] [
>          before={%
>          \setupnarrower[left=\cslhangindent]
>          \startnarrower[left]%
>          \setupindenting[-\leftskip,yes,first]%
>          \indentation%
>        },
>        after=\stopnarrower,
>      ]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \section{Some title}
> 
> \input ward
> 
> \section{References}
> 
> \startcslreferences
> 
> \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{10}{This is a Test. }\par}
> 
> \stopcslreferences
> 
> \stoptext
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The skip after the `\section{References}` is bigger than after 
> `\section{Some title}`. Why is that? If I delete the empty line after 
> `\startcslreferences`, the skips are identical.
> 
> Is there a way to take care of this through `\definestartstop`?
you need to get rid of the empty line

\definenarrower[whatever][left=1.5em]

\definestartstop
   [cslreferences]
   [before={%
     \startwhatever[left]
     \setupindenting[-\leftskip,yes,first]
     \indentation
     \GetPar
    },
    after=\stopwhatever]

\showframe

\starttext

\section{Some title}

\input ward

\section{References}

\startcslreferences

     \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{10}{This is a Test. }\par}

\stopcslreferences

\stoptext


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Fwd: Re: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[denis.maier.lists]

Hans,
thanks for your answer. But two questions:
First: Am I right to assume that the important part is `\GetPar`. The rest is syntactic sugar to make to code more ConTeXt-like, right?
Second: For some reasons I have not received your message. It wasn't in the Spam folder and I usually receive mails from the list. Any ideas? Are there some known problems?

Best,
Denis


On 11/27/2019 2:17 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> Hi,
> I have this file:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> \newdimen\cslhangindent
> \cslhangindent=1.5em
> \definestartstop [cslreferences] [
>          before={%
>          \setupnarrower[left=\cslhangindent]
>          \startnarrower[left]%
>          \setupindenting[-\leftskip,yes,first]%
>          \indentation%
>        },
>        after=\stopnarrower,
>      ]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \section{Some title}
> 
> \input ward
> 
> \section{References}
> 
> \startcslreferences
> 
> \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{10}{This is a Test. }\par}
> 
> \stopcslreferences
> 
> \stoptext
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The skip after the `\section{References}` is bigger than after 
> `\section{Some title}`. Why is that? If I delete the empty line after 
> `\startcslreferences`, the skips are identical.
> 
> Is there a way to take care of this through `\definestartstop`?
you need to get rid of the empty line

\definenarrower[whatever][left=1.5em]

\definestartstop
   [cslreferences]
   [before={%
     \startwhatever[left]
     \setupindenting[-\leftskip,yes,first]
     \indentation
     \GetPar
    },
    after=\stopwhatever]

\showframe

\starttext

\section{Some title}

\input ward

\section{References}

\startcslreferences

     \dorecurse{10}{\dorecurse{10}{This is a Test. }\par}

\stopcslreferences

\stoptext
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fwd: Re: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/28/2019 11:26 PM, denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org wrote:
> Hans,
> thanks for your answer. But two questions:
> First: Am I right to assume that the important part is `\GetPar`. The rest is syntactic sugar to make to code more ConTeXt-like, right?

what you do is something:

\def\foo{something that introduces a node)

\foo

rest of test

so you have:

<some node>
<skip>
rest of text

so:

\startwhatever
     some text
\stopwhatever

versus:

\startwhatever

     some text

\stopwhatever

> Second: For some reasons I have not received your message. It wasn't in the Spam folder and I usually receive mails from the list. Any ideas? Are there some known problems?

Your mailbox host does some strange address checking (we run a mail 
server here and then go to the provider and it checks the internal 
server with a local address) ... there are some more on this list that 
bounce that way, like gmx, and i';ve given up bothering about it.
  hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fwd: Re: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[Denis Maier]

Am 29.11.2019 um 10:38 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> Second: For some reasons I have not received your message. It wasn't 
> in the Spam folder and I usually receive mails from the list. Any 
> ideas? Are there some known problems?
>
> Your mailbox host does some strange address checking (we run a mail 
> server here and then go to the provider and it checks the internal 
> server with a local address) ... there are some more on this list that 
> bounce that way, like gmx, and i';ve given up bothering about it.
>  hans

Ok, what do you suggest? Change to a different mailserver for the list? 
Which hosts aren't prone to this problem? Or is there something I can 
change on my side?
Denis
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fwd: Re: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/29/2019 11:05 AM, Denis Maier wrote:
> Am 29.11.2019 um 10:38 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> Second: For some reasons I have not received your message. It wasn't 
>> in the Spam folder and I usually receive mails from the list. Any 
>> ideas? Are there some known problems?
>>
>> Your mailbox host does some strange address checking (we run a mail 
>> server here and then go to the provider and it checks the internal 
>> server with a local address) ... there are some more on this list that 
>> bounce that way, like gmx, and i';ve given up bothering about it.
>>  hans
> 
> Ok, what do you suggest? Change to a different mailserver for the list? 
> Which hosts aren't prone to this problem? Or is there something I can 
> change on my side?
as long as you get messages from the list it's ok, but i normally hit 
reply so it also can to you then in which case it bounces

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mailing list behaviour (was: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair)

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2019-11-29 um 11:05 schrieb Denis Maier <denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org>:
> 
> Am 29.11.2019 um 10:38 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> Second: For some reasons I have not received your message. It wasn't in the Spam folder and I usually receive mails from the list. Any ideas? Are there some known problems?
>> 
>> Your mailbox host does some strange address checking (we run a mail server here and then go to the provider and it checks the internal server with a local address) ... there are some more on this list that bounce that way, like gmx, and i';ve given up bothering about it.
>>  hans
> 
> Ok, what do you suggest? Change to a different mailserver for the list? Which hosts aren't prone to this problem? Or is there something I can change on my side?

The problem seems to be that traditional mailing lists like this just don’t work with modern security standards.

I didn’t check how secure NTG’s mail server is configured, but changing subject and sender of every message is regarded harmful.
Not doing that would mean that: 
* I can’t filter mails (visually or rule based) by subject any more.
* A lot of replies would only go to the sender.
* The connection of threads would get lost.
(I see all of these on other lists.)

So, using an address from a more tolerant (and maybe less secure) provider for lists like this would make sense.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
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Re: mailing list behaviour (was: Spurious newlines at beginning of startstop pair)

[Marco Patzer]

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:10:46 +0100
Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:

> The problem seems to be that traditional mailing lists like this just
> don’t work with modern security standards.
> 
> I didn’t check how secure NTG’s mail server is configured, but
> changing subject and sender of every message is regarded harmful. Not
> doing that would mean that: 
> * I can’t filter mails (visually or rule based) by subject any more.

Sorting can easily be done using other headers , e.g. “List-Id”.

> * A lot of replies would only go to the sender.

Very true.

> * The connection of threads would get lost.

Why? Threads are arranged by the “References” and “In-Reply-To”
headers which are not modified.

Marco
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Re: mailing list behaviour

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2019-11-29 um 12:31 schrieb Marco Patzer <lists@homerow.info>:
> 
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:10:46 +0100
> Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
> 
>> The problem seems to be that traditional mailing lists like this just
>> don’t work with modern security standards.
>> 
>> I didn’t check how secure NTG’s mail server is configured, but
>> changing subject and sender of every message is regarded harmful. Not
>> doing that would mean that: 
>> * I can’t filter mails (visually or rule based) by subject any more.
> 
> Sorting can easily be done using other headers , e.g. “List-Id”.

I know. That’s why I wrote "visually" and "by subject". If I must resolve to a webmailer where I didn’t setup all of my mail sorting rules, the visual clue of [Somelist] in the subject or at least a common sender helps a lot. And most people whose computers I get to see don’t sort their mails automatically (of course those usually also don’t subscribe to mailing lists like this).

E.g. MacPorts list doesn’t modify sender or subject line and doesn’t add a footer – it’s hard to see that the messages belong to a mailing list.

>> * A lot of replies would only go to the sender.
> 
> Very true.
> 
>> * The connection of threads would get lost.
> 
> Why? Threads are arranged by the “References” and “In-Reply-To”
> headers which are not modified.

Since some users don’t reply to the list, the threads get broken all the time.

Best, Hraban
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