From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/106057 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao!not-for-mail From: Thomas Savary Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:59:37 +0100 Organization: Compo 85 Message-ID: <9129788.3TmcztfxEV@debian> References: <5e1e39a1.1c69fb81.a2462.c312@mx.google.com> <2199238.F81R2dj7GW@debian> Reply-To: compo85@correctionpro.fr, mailing list for ConTeXt users Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2149825863371936725==" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="82065"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users To: Hans Hagen Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Wed Jan 15 16:44:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from zapf.boekplan.nl ([5.39.185.232] helo=zapf.ntg.nl) by ciao with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1irkjy-0006q1-Tz for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A41164D9B; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pn6t38hn-yhC; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:36 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6925A164D95; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:36 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBA9164D91 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C8dfd47WYeYi for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:31 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: Pass (mailfrom) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=46.105.56.113; helo=14.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net; envelope-from=compo85@correctionpro.fr; receiver= X-Greylist: delayed 1198 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at zapf.ntg.nl; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:31 CET Original-Received: from 14.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (14.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.56.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C780164D8E for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:37:31 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from player787.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.108.42.239]) by mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72FD1F9A68 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:59:43 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from correctionpro.fr (lmontsouris-657-1-180-77.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.233.77]) (Authenticated sender: thomas.savary@correctionpro.fr) by player787.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A57B7E6EEFF9; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:59:41 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 2945072685609016059 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrtdefgdeilecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvfhrufffkfhojghfgggtgfesrgfureertddtjeenucfhrhhomhepvfhhohhmrghsucfurghvrghrhicuoegtohhmphhokeehsegtohhrrhgvtghtihhonhhprhhordhfrheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgohhoghhlvgdrfhhrpdgtohhmphhokeehrdhfrhdpphhrrghgmhgrqdgruggvrdhnlhdpphhrrghgmhgrqdhpohgurdhnlhenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpkedvrdduvdejrddvfeefrdejjeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrjeekjedrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegtohhmphhokeehsegtohhrrhgvtghtihhonhhprhhordhfrhdprhgtphhtthhopehnthhgqdgtohhnthgvgihtsehnthhgrdhnlhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: "ntg-context" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.context:106057 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2149825863371936725== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart12634844.5zaCOoLMjP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart12634844.5zaCOoLMjP Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hans=E2=80=AF: > never seen them [thin spaces] in dutch ...=20 Example from a book published in Haarlem, 1838, =E2=80=9CGedichten van Nico= laas Beets=E2=80=9D=20 =E2=80=94 you will even see thin spaces before commas, like in France in th= e 17th-18th=20 century. https://books.google.fr/books? id=3Ds1BUAAAAcAAJ&printsec=3Dfrontcover&hl=3Dfr&source=3Dgbs_ge_summary_r&c= ad=3D0#v=3Donepage&q&f=3Dfalse > i think not so much lazyness but side > effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used > to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blobs= =E2=80=AF: The first books where I saw all thin spaces disappear were printed in the U= SA in=20 the 20th century, after 1910 but certainly before 1960, so before digital=20 publishing, but I am no specialist of type history. > keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... > however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per > user I guess that they unfortunately were no typographers. It is true that there= =20 are at least two different schools on this subject. I will explain all that= =20 when I have a bit more time. Greetings Thomas Savary 1 le Grand-Plessis =46-85340 L=E2=80=99=C3=8Ele-d=E2=80=99Olonne T=C3=A9l. 06 22 82 61 34 https://compo85.fr/ mercredi 15 janvier 2020, =C3=A0 10:15:45 CET, Hans Hagen a =C3=A9crit : > On 1/14/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote: > > Hello, dear list=E2=80=AF! > >=20 > > Joseph=E2=80=AF: > > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) > >=20 > > is not > >=20 > > > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some > >=20 > > parts of > >=20 > > Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV > > anyway : the =E2=80=9Cthin=E2=80=9D spaces are much too wide. I will wr= ite more about it > > when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time > > being, I don=E2=80=99t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation= , but > > real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about > > 0.125 em, depending on the font). >=20 > keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... > however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per > user >=20 > anyway, it's configureable >=20 > > By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, > > historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in > > Europe for centuries =E2=80=94 at least in England, Belgium, Germany an= d Italy > > (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes > > in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder > > why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness=E2=80=AF? :-) >=20 > never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side > effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used > to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob >=20 > Hans >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --nextPart12634844.5zaCOoLMjP Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Hans=E2=80= =AF:

> never = seen them [thin spaces] in dutch ...

Example fro= m a book published in Haarlem, 1838, =E2=80=9CGedichten van Nicolaas Beets= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 you will even see thin spaces before commas, like in Fr= ance in the 17th-18th century.

https://boo= ks.google.fr/books?id=3Ds1BUAAAAcAAJ&printsec=3Dfrontcover&hl=3Dfr&= amp;source=3Dgbs_ge_summary_r&cad=3D0#v=3Donepage&q&f=3Dfalse

&nb= sp;

> i thin= k not so much lazyness but side

> effect= of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used

> to jus= tify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blobs=E2=80=AF:=

The first b= ooks where I saw all thin spaces disappear were printed in the USA in the 2= 0th century, after 1910 but certainly before 1960, so before digital publis= hing, but I am no specialist of type history.

&nb= sp;

> keep i= n mind that we use values that were specified by french users ...

> howeve= r, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per

> user

I guess tha= t they unfortunately were no typographers. It is true that there are at lea= st two different schools on this subject. I will explain all that when I ha= ve a bit more time.

&nb= sp;

Greetings

&nb= sp;

Thomas Sava= ry

1 le Grand-= Plessis

F-85340 L= =E2=80=99=C3=8Ele-d=E2=80=99Olonne

T=C3=A9l. 0= 6 22 82 61 34

https://com= po85.fr/

&nb= sp;

&nb= sp;

mercredi 15= janvier 2020, =C3=A0 10:15:45 CET, Hans Hagen a =C3=A9crit :

> On 1/1= 4/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote:

> > H= ello, dear list=E2=80=AF!

> > <= /p>

> > J= oseph=E2=80=AF:

> > = > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation)

> > <= /p>

> > i= s not

> > <= /p>

> > = > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some

> > <= /p>

> > p= arts of

> > <= /p>

> > C= haracter-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV

> > a= nyway=C2=A0: the =E2=80=9Cthin=E2=80=9D spaces are much too wide. I will wr= ite more about it

> > w= hen I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time

> > b= eing, I don=E2=80=99t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but=

> > r= eal Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about

> > 0= =2E125=C2=A0em, depending on the font).

>

> keep i= n mind that we use values that were specified by french users ...

> howeve= r, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per

> user

>

> anyway= , it's configureable

>

> > B= y the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography,

> > h= istorically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in

> > E= urope for centuries =E2=80=94 at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Ita= ly

> > (= probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes

> > i= n England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder

> > w= hy most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness=E2=80=AF? :-)

>

> never = seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side

> effect= of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used

> to jus= tify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob

>

> Hans

>

> ------= =2D----------------------------------------------------------

> = Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE

> = Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands

> = tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl

> ------= =2D----------------------------------------------------------

&nb= sp;

&nb= sp;

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