[NTG-context] Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[NTG-context] Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[Gerion Entrup]

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Hi,

I played around with different fonts, especially Bitstream XCharter and Overpass (http://overpassfont.org/) and wanted to combine them.
However, I see some issues regarding ligatures, kerning and obliques/italics.

Here is a minimal example:
```
\definefontfeature[default][mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes]
% more features
% [mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes, tlig=yes, itlg=yes, ccmp=yes, language=dflt, protrusion=quality, expansion=quality]

\definefontfamily [myfont][roman][xcharter]
\definefontfamily [myfont][sansserif][overpass][rscale=0.93]
\definefontfamily [myfont][teletype][overpass][rscale=0.93]
\definefontfamily [myfont][mono][overpassmono][rscale=0.93]
\definetypeface   [myfont][mathematics][math] [xcharter]

\setupbodyfont[myfont, 11pt]

\startTEXpage

\showfontkerns

             Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}\\
\style[sans]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
\style[mono]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\

\showbodyfont[myfont]

\stopTEXpage
```
It produces the PDF in the attachment. I'm struggling with several things:
- xcharter seems to have no kerning applied. It is listed as font feature, though. Is it correct to have no kerning at all for that font?
- xcharter also have no ligatures (at least it doesn't look like that). That is listed as font feature, too, although only for italic and slanted. According to https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/xcharter/ there are ligatures in the font.
- Overpass has a glyph for the ae ligature. Is it normal that it is not used as a ligature for ae?
- Overpass Mono does not contain italic glyphs. I would have expected obliques when using \slanted then. However, it just remains normal.
- I included the ™ in the example since its italic glyph is not slanted. For all fonts \slanted seems to switch to the extra (italic?) glyphs, while I would have expected obliques. At least overpass seems to have no dedicated slanted style, while xcharter has one.
- Is there a command to show ligatures the same way there is a command for kerning?

I attached the output of the following commands, too:
mtxrun --script font --list --file --info --pattern='xcharter*'
mtxrun --script font --list --file --info --pattern='overpass*'

Thanks
Gerion

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[NTG-context] Re: Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 21:28:
> Hi,
>
> I played around with different fonts, especially Bitstream XCharter and Overpass (http://overpassfont.org/) and wanted to combine them.
> However, I see some issues regarding ligatures, kerning and obliques/italics.
>
> Here is a minimal example:
> ```
> \definefontfeature[default][mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes]
> % more features
> % [mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes, tlig=yes, itlg=yes, ccmp=yes, language=dflt, protrusion=quality, expansion=quality]

There is no need to set default features like ligatures and kerning, the 
better alternative here is to use

     \definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality,...]

which adds additional settings to the default set.

> \definefontfamily [myfont][roman][xcharter]
> \definefontfamily [myfont][sansserif][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> \definefontfamily [myfont][teletype][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> \definefontfamily [myfont][mono][overpassmono][rscale=0.93]
> \definetypeface   [myfont][mathematics][math] [xcharter]
>
> \setupbodyfont[myfont, 11pt]
>
> \startTEXpage
>
> \showfontkerns
>
>               Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}\\
> \style[sans]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
> \style[mono]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
>
> \showbodyfont[myfont]
>
> \stopTEXpage
> ```
> It produces the PDF in the attachment. I'm struggling with several things:
> - xcharter seems to have no kerning applied. It is listed as font feature, though. Is it correct to have no kerning at all for that font?

The font has kerning information but none for characters in the ASCII range.

> - xcharter also have no ligatures (at least it doesn't look like that). That is listed as font feature, too, although only for italic and slanted. According to https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/xcharter/ there are ligatures in the font.

There are ligatures for ff[il].

> - Overpass has a glyph for the ae ligature. Is it normal that it is not used as a ligature for ae?

This seems to be a stupid decision to replace ae by default with a 
ligature, maybe dependent on the language but not for all of them.

> - Overpass Mono does not contain italic glyphs. I would have expected obliques when using \slanted then. However, it just remains normal.

You can use the slanted feature for this but the default setting is to 
fall back to the upright alternative and you as a user has to make the 
choice.

Example: \definefontfamily[myfont][tt][overpassmono][sl={features:slanted}]

> - I included the ™ in the example since its italic glyph is not slanted. For all fonts \slanted seems to switch to the extra (italic?) glyphs, while I would have expected obliques. At least overpass seems to have no dedicated slanted style, while xcharter has one.

How a glyph for a certain styles appears depends on the font designer.


When you use \definefontfamily you get always the same style for italic 
and slanted because most fonts provide only italic or oblique (but not 
both). In some case you do something like the following font setting but 
the best solution when you have a large font family have is to write a 
typescript.

     \definefontfamily[myfont][rm][xcharter][sl=style:slanted]

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[Gerion Entrup]

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Am Dienstag, 27. August 2024, 22:30:16 MESZ schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
> Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 21:28:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I played around with different fonts, especially Bitstream XCharter and Overpass (http://overpassfont.org/) and wanted to combine them.
> > However, I see some issues regarding ligatures, kerning and obliques/italics.
> >
> > Here is a minimal example:
> > ```
> > \definefontfeature[default][mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes]
> > % more features
> > % [mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes, tlig=yes, itlg=yes, ccmp=yes, language=dflt, protrusion=quality, expansion=quality]
> 
> There is no need to set default features like ligatures and kerning, the 
> better alternative here is to use
> 
>      \definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality,...]
> 
> which adds additional settings to the default set.
> 
> > \definefontfamily [myfont][roman][xcharter]
> > \definefontfamily [myfont][sansserif][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> > \definefontfamily [myfont][teletype][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> > \definefontfamily [myfont][mono][overpassmono][rscale=0.93]
> > \definetypeface   [myfont][mathematics][math] [xcharter]
> >
> > \setupbodyfont[myfont, 11pt]
> >
> > \startTEXpage
> >
> > \showfontkerns
> >
> >               Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}\\
> > \style[sans]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
> > \style[mono]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
> >
> > \showbodyfont[myfont]
> >
> > \stopTEXpage
> > ```
> > It produces the PDF in the attachment. I'm struggling with several things:
> > - xcharter seems to have no kerning applied. It is listed as font feature, though. Is it correct to have no kerning at all for that font?
> 
> The font has kerning information but none for characters in the ASCII range.

Good to know. Especially for the "Va" in "Vase", I expected kerning (it looks not equally spaced currently).


> > - xcharter also have no ligatures (at least it doesn't look like that). That is listed as font feature, too, although only for italic and slanted. According to https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/xcharter/ there are ligatures in the font.
> 
> There are ligatures for ff[il].

They are defined in the font, but they are not used in the PDF output, aren't they? For example in the "ffi" in "Effizient" the "f" is not connected with the "i", while the ligature glyph has a connection there.
I attached a screenshot for comparison. The ligature was generated with "\ShowCompleteFont{name:xcharter*default}{11pt}{1}" (with the fnt-10 module).
It is, however, noticeable that the whole xcharter font is thicker in the output of \ShowCompleteFont. Is this part of the reason?


> > - Overpass has a glyph for the ae ligature. Is it normal that it is not used as a ligature for ae?
> 
> This seems to be a stupid decision to replace ae by default with a 
> ligature, maybe dependent on the language but not for all of them.

Ok, I've seen it here as (somewhat) common ligature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(writing)#Computer_typesetting
But there is also mentioned that TeX just has ff, fi, fl, ffi and ffl by default.


> > - Overpass Mono does not contain italic glyphs. I would have expected obliques when using \slanted then. However, it just remains normal.
> 
> You can use the slanted feature for this but the default setting is to 
> fall back to the upright alternative and you as a user has to make the 
> choice.
> 
> Example: \definefontfamily[myfont][tt][overpassmono][sl={features:slanted}]

Thank you! That make sense.


> > - I included the ™ in the example since its italic glyph is not slanted. For all fonts \slanted seems to switch to the extra (italic?) glyphs, while I would have expected obliques. At least overpass seems to have no dedicated slanted style, while xcharter has one.
> 
> How a glyph for a certain styles appears depends on the font designer.
> 
> 
> When you use \definefontfamily you get always the same style for italic 
> and slanted because most fonts provide only italic or oblique (but not 
> both). In some case you do something like the following font setting but 
> the best solution when you have a large font family have is to write a 
> typescript.
> 
>      \definefontfamily[myfont][rm][xcharter][sl=style:slanted]

Thank you for the explanation. That sounds meaningful.


Gerion

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[NTG-context] Re: Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 23:29:
> Am Dienstag, 27. August 2024, 22:30:16 MESZ schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
>> Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 21:28:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I played around with different fonts, especially Bitstream XCharter and Overpass (http://overpassfont.org/) and wanted to combine them.
>>> However, I see some issues regarding ligatures, kerning and obliques/italics.
>>>
>>> Here is a minimal example:
>>> ```
>>> \definefontfeature[default][mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes]
>>> % more features
>>> % [mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes, tlig=yes, itlg=yes, ccmp=yes, language=dflt, protrusion=quality, expansion=quality]
>> There is no need to set default features like ligatures and kerning, the
>> better alternative here is to use
>>
>>       \definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality,...]
>>
>> which adds additional settings to the default set.
>>
>>> \definefontfamily [myfont][roman][xcharter]
>>> \definefontfamily [myfont][sansserif][overpass][rscale=0.93]
>>> \definefontfamily [myfont][teletype][overpass][rscale=0.93]
>>> \definefontfamily [myfont][mono][overpassmono][rscale=0.93]
>>> \definetypeface   [myfont][mathematics][math] [xcharter]
>>>
>>> \setupbodyfont[myfont, 11pt]
>>>
>>> \startTEXpage
>>>
>>> \showfontkerns
>>>
>>>                Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}\\
>>> \style[sans]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
>>> \style[mono]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
>>>
>>> \showbodyfont[myfont]
>>>
>>> \stopTEXpage
>>> ```
>>> It produces the PDF in the attachment. I'm struggling with several things:
>>> - xcharter seems to have no kerning applied. It is listed as font feature, though. Is it correct to have no kerning at all for that font?
>> The font has kerning information but none for characters in the ASCII range.
> Good to know. Especially for the "Va" in "Vase", I expected kerning (it looks not equally spaced currently).
>
>
>>> - xcharter also have no ligatures (at least it doesn't look like that). That is listed as font feature, too, although only for italic and slanted. According to https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/xcharter/ there are ligatures in the font.
>> There are ligatures for ff[il].
> They are defined in the font, but they are not used in the PDF output, aren't they? For example in the "ffi" in "Effizient" the "f" is not connected with the "i", while the ligature glyph has a connection there.

You have to change the value of the script tag because the don't set 
them for the dflt script.

\definefontfeature[default][default][script=latn]

\definefontfamily[myfont][rm][xcharter]

\setupbodyfont[myfont]

\showmakeup[glyph]

\starttext

ff fi fl ffi ffl fb fh fk

\feature[-][ligatures]

ff fi fl ffi ffl fb fh fk

\stoptext

> I attached a screenshot for comparison. The ligature was generated with "\ShowCompleteFont{name:xcharter*default}{11pt}{1}" (with the fnt-10 module).
> It is, however, noticeable that the whole xcharter font is thicker in the output of \ShowCompleteFont. Is this part of the reason?

When you load a font by name use one which is listed in the table you 
get with "mtxrun --script fonts --list --all  --pattern=xcharter*". In 
this case the table is

identifier            familyname         fontname 
filename                   subfont   instances

xcharterbold          xcharter           xcharterbold XCharter-Bold.otf
xcharterbolditalic    xcharter           xcharterbolditalic 
XCharter-BoldItalic.otf
xcharterboldslanted   xcharter           xcharterboldslanted 
XCharter-BoldSlanted.otf
xcharteritalic        xcharter           xcharteritalic XCharter-Italic.otf
xchartermath          xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
xchartermathbold      xchartermathbold   xchartermathbold 
XCharter-Math-Bold.otf
xchartermathmedium    xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
xchartermathregular   xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
xcharternormal        xcharter           xcharteritalic XCharter-Italic.otf
xcharterregular       xcharter           xcharterroman XCharter-Roman.otf
xcharterroman         xcharter           xcharterroman XCharter-Roman.otf
xcharterslanted       xcharter           xcharterslanted 
XCharter-Slanted.otf

and as you can see there is no entry "xcharter". In your case context 
loaded the bold version of the font but when you use "xcharterroman" as 
name the document shows the normal upright version.

>>> - Overpass has a glyph for the ae ligature. Is it normal that it is not used as a ligature for ae?
>> This seems to be a stupid decision to replace ae by default with a
>> ligature, maybe dependent on the language but not for all of them.
> Ok, I've seen it here as (somewhat) common ligature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(writing)#Computer_typesetting
> But there is also mentioned that TeX just has ff, fi, fl, ffi and ffl by default.

What is available or not depends on the font and even then there can be 
differences between different version of a font.

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: Questions regarding fonts: obliques (fake italics), ligatures and kerning

[Gerion Entrup]

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Hi,

thank you, that answers all my questions!

Gerion

Am Mittwoch, 28. August 2024, 00:03:34 MESZ schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
> Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 23:29:
> > Am Dienstag, 27. August 2024, 22:30:16 MESZ schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
> >> Gerion Entrup schrieb am 27.08.2024 um 21:28:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I played around with different fonts, especially Bitstream XCharter and Overpass (http://overpassfont.org/) and wanted to combine them.
> >>> However, I see some issues regarding ligatures, kerning and obliques/italics.
> >>>
> >>> Here is a minimal example:
> >>> ```
> >>> \definefontfeature[default][mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes]
> >>> % more features
> >>> % [mode=node, kern=yes, liga=yes, tlig=yes, itlg=yes, ccmp=yes, language=dflt, protrusion=quality, expansion=quality]
> >> There is no need to set default features like ligatures and kerning, the
> >> better alternative here is to use
> >>
> >>       \definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality,...]
> >>
> >> which adds additional settings to the default set.
> >>
> >>> \definefontfamily [myfont][roman][xcharter]
> >>> \definefontfamily [myfont][sansserif][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> >>> \definefontfamily [myfont][teletype][overpass][rscale=0.93]
> >>> \definefontfamily [myfont][mono][overpassmono][rscale=0.93]
> >>> \definetypeface   [myfont][mathematics][math] [xcharter]
> >>>
> >>> \setupbodyfont[myfont, 11pt]
> >>>
> >>> \startTEXpage
> >>>
> >>> \showfontkerns
> >>>
> >>>                Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}\\
> >>> \style[sans]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
> >>> \style[mono]{Vitae, Vase, LT, VA, Y., Effizient, abcdel™, \italic{effi abcdel™}, \slanted{effi abcdel™}}\\
> >>>
> >>> \showbodyfont[myfont]
> >>>
> >>> \stopTEXpage
> >>> ```
> >>> It produces the PDF in the attachment. I'm struggling with several things:
> >>> - xcharter seems to have no kerning applied. It is listed as font feature, though. Is it correct to have no kerning at all for that font?
> >> The font has kerning information but none for characters in the ASCII range.
> > Good to know. Especially for the "Va" in "Vase", I expected kerning (it looks not equally spaced currently).
> >
> >
> >>> - xcharter also have no ligatures (at least it doesn't look like that). That is listed as font feature, too, although only for italic and slanted. According to https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/xcharter/ there are ligatures in the font.
> >> There are ligatures for ff[il].
> > They are defined in the font, but they are not used in the PDF output, aren't they? For example in the "ffi" in "Effizient" the "f" is not connected with the "i", while the ligature glyph has a connection there.
> 
> You have to change the value of the script tag because the don't set 
> them for the dflt script.
> 
> \definefontfeature[default][default][script=latn]
> 
> \definefontfamily[myfont][rm][xcharter]
> 
> \setupbodyfont[myfont]
> 
> \showmakeup[glyph]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> ff fi fl ffi ffl fb fh fk
> 
> \feature[-][ligatures]
> 
> ff fi fl ffi ffl fb fh fk
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> > I attached a screenshot for comparison. The ligature was generated with "\ShowCompleteFont{name:xcharter*default}{11pt}{1}" (with the fnt-10 module).
> > It is, however, noticeable that the whole xcharter font is thicker in the output of \ShowCompleteFont. Is this part of the reason?
> 
> When you load a font by name use one which is listed in the table you 
> get with "mtxrun --script fonts --list --all  --pattern=xcharter*". In 
> this case the table is
> 
> identifier            familyname         fontname 
> filename                   subfont   instances
> 
> xcharterbold          xcharter           xcharterbold XCharter-Bold.otf
> xcharterbolditalic    xcharter           xcharterbolditalic 
> XCharter-BoldItalic.otf
> xcharterboldslanted   xcharter           xcharterboldslanted 
> XCharter-BoldSlanted.otf
> xcharteritalic        xcharter           xcharteritalic XCharter-Italic.otf
> xchartermath          xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
> xchartermathbold      xchartermathbold   xchartermathbold 
> XCharter-Math-Bold.otf
> xchartermathmedium    xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
> xchartermathregular   xchartermath       xchartermath XCharter-Math.otf
> xcharternormal        xcharter           xcharteritalic XCharter-Italic.otf
> xcharterregular       xcharter           xcharterroman XCharter-Roman.otf
> xcharterroman         xcharter           xcharterroman XCharter-Roman.otf
> xcharterslanted       xcharter           xcharterslanted 
> XCharter-Slanted.otf
> 
> and as you can see there is no entry "xcharter". In your case context 
> loaded the bold version of the font but when you use "xcharterroman" as 
> name the document shows the normal upright version.
> 
> >>> - Overpass has a glyph for the ae ligature. Is it normal that it is not used as a ligature for ae?
> >> This seems to be a stupid decision to replace ae by default with a
> >> ligature, maybe dependent on the language but not for all of them.
> > Ok, I've seen it here as (somewhat) common ligature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(writing)#Computer_typesetting
> > But there is also mentioned that TeX just has ff, fi, fl, ffi and ffl by default.
> 
> What is available or not depends on the font and even then there can be 
> differences between different version of a font.
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 


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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
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